mooeypoo

Bonbus, stop ignoring half my claims. How far ago would you like to go? There are evidence of the jewish nation IN ISRAEL for 2500 years in digs and archeological finds. The jewish nation was sent away from Israel (by force, driven out, exiled) during the Babylonian empire (presumably today's "Iraqis"). So one can also claim that the Jews *came back* to their country. And yet it is, as I said, utterly irrelevant. You can't keep having double standards, bombus. If you claim Israe shouldnt' exist because you picked an arbitrary date in history to claim wohoever was there to have a "CLAIM ON THE LAND", then you need to change the entire world map now, because every country has the same "problem" in its history and creation. EVERY COUNTRY. On top of that, arguing about who is where when has no bearing on the current situation. I find it slightly disturbing that while we were talking about what might be options for peace you, again, come to the thread, ignore the claims made by everyone other than those you can answer, and incite towards a "no solution" argument. Are you not pro peace? What is it, exactly, do you expect Israel to do right now, roll over and die? I think not. ~moo P.S: I wonder if during the current (and previous) war in Iraq you demanded that the United States be dissembled and given back to the native americans, because it has no right one the land. Do you seriously find this a relevant claim?

I'm sorry, but I disagree with your analysis of history. But that seems to be quiet irrelevant. It's the same as claiming that if Columbus wouldn't have made a booboo on a map, America would be a thriving Indian society. (1) you can't know that (2) does that mean USA, Canada and Mexico should dissemble and let the native american population rule? Or, alternatively, does that mean that if native americans start blowing themselves up or throwing missiles at American civilians, does that mean USA should shut up? On top of that, *ISRAELI CITIZENS* have citizen rights. There are Jews, Muslims and Christians living in Israel that are *CITIZENS* of Israel, who elected (and will go to vote in a month) and we have a fairly large Arab party in the parliament. Not all Arabs are the same; There are Palestinians and Arab Israelis, Jordanians, Egyptians, Lebanese, etc etc etc. What you seem to be doing is generalizing anyone you see fit to make your point. That's historically and realistically untrue and unfair. I'm glad you understand the Palestinians so well, seeing as you completely misrepresent their history, the neighboring countries history, and the Israeli and Jewish history. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedbombus, Israel *OFFICIALLY* supports a 2 state solution. That means that Israel wants the palestinians to have their own state. Where, exactly, does Israel say "it's all theirs" is beyond me, but perhaps when one only reads half information and ignores the other half, that's the impression that sticks.

I have to put in just one tiny remark (I'll hve more time to read your posts a bit later and then properly answer, just one thing I had in mind I had to share) -- You know, this conflict is *not* "accross generations". The conflicts Israel had in the past were ENTIRELY different, and not with the Palestinians. My mother still remembers the day where she went into Gaza to buy the best potatoes in the market. We used to live in relative peace, yaknow. Not too long ago, either. Things changed (fault of both sides), and the nationalism of the Palestinians (they used to be "ARABS", then they became "palestinians" specifically, with an emphasis. If you read history you'll see they weren't always like that, nor were they exactly always there, but that's irrelevant). Anyhoo my piont is that my mom's story about going into Gaza in peace (and having Gazans come to their Kibbutz for milk product or something like that) gives me *HOPE* that the situation doesn't HAVE to be like that. Israel was at war with the entire arab world for generations too, and yet Israel has peace with Jordan and Egypt... so.. it's possible. Just hard.

I agree. Not only that, I have a vested interest to agree with you. I actually know the soldiers who risk their lives there. The people of Israel want to avoid battle as much as the next guy, and if we see that the lives lost were in vain, it will have the same impact as Iraq war currently has on the American people. That's also why Israel is *not* stopping the operation before its completion and decided to launch the ground assault. Since it can't really (morally and politically, not 'ability-wise' -- it *can* physically if that was 'worth it') solve the situation with an air strike by just bombing everywhere without distinction, it sent ground forces. I don't know. I hope so. It's a bit weird to call Fatah (Arafat's party) "moderate", but it is, relatively. It was just thrown off and sent into hiding (when the ground-forces started to go into Gaza, Hamas rounded up Fatah people and Fatah "helpers" and either shot them in the legs or killed them), everyone is hoping that Abu Mazen (Palestinian prime minister) would rise back up and stop being a puppet of Hamas (he was talking to Israel before) so the Peace process can go on. One of the most frustrating things is to have no solution, or not "better" solution. As someone who grew up in that area (and lost friends to terror attacks), you can trust me when I tell you my biggest aspiration is for peace... and this realization that it's so complicated plus the frustration over the lack of cooperation on the other side (and sometimes Israel government and factions in the parliament) is not something I'm enjoying. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged I hope not long, but Lebanon is *entirely* different than Gaza - politically wise (Hizbullah is not the actual government, it's a terror organization with ties in the government and lots of power in the land) and in terms of the terrain (not the same to try and control southern lebanon as it is to try and control Gaza and stop missile attacks). This is very depressing. I don't know what to say. On the one hand, we now have almost two million civilians uinder thread of missile attacks. On the other, our soldiers are our civilians. They're our familes, they're us... I don't think anyone wishes for a war that risks their lives (I hope not). But how do you solve such situation, when diplomacy is not even an option..

Actually, I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure I heard that these only work on relatively long-range missiles. Hamas' rockets are crude (but effective) and I am very doubtful anything like that would help. Regardless, I agree. If such a device existed, we should use it. And about suicide bombers, well.. bigger problem. But then, Gaza passageways to and from Israel *WERE OPEN* continously within the past years ('till Hamas came to power) with the exception of when they sent out terrorists, at which point Israel closed the border to prevent that. And even that only helped by 80%. Israel Intelligence is quite good, too, but that, too is not 100% accurate. Which is why sometimes, sadly, they're successful.

I don't think it's helping Israel politically, specifically not with a public outcry. But the question remains: What is the alternative? For eight years Israel kept its soldiers tight and its airforce tighter and got missile after missile targetting CIVILIANS in its area, killing civilians and keeping other civilians in bomb shelters and out of work and regular life. What is the alternative to a response that intends to *make sure* no more rockets are fired? And how would you make sure such a thing never happens again when Hamas is unwilling to talk and unwilling to stop, and keeps arming itself heavier and heavier, and is *increasing* the range of its missiles as weeks go by? What's the alternative?

I agree with almost everything you say, padren, just on this point- I disagree, but mainly I *hope* you're wrong and that there IS an alternative. Hamas openly calls for the distruction of Israel in their manifesto.. it's quite hard to conduct talks with an organization like that. On the other hand, I think the Fatah (an extension/continuation of the PLO, led previously by Arafat) is a bit more open to talks. We've seen a few agreements between the Palestinian authority and Israel when Fatah was in power. I don't think Hamas is the only serious game in town, I think they're just the most violent. Fatah is ready to take their place, they just lost the "terf war", but they still exist.

Whether or not Israel has nuclear capabilities has no bearing on this discussion; Israel is obviously not using any, nor is it threatening to use any, nor will it be wise to use any - politically, humanely or practically. It might be "emotionally appealing" (like well edited videos with one-sided casualties and lots of bloody shots) but that doesn't make it factually relevant. Excuse me? Palestinian authority is recieving HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS per year from the European Union, United States, Israel (you don't hear of that in the news, do you) and other countries around the world. Where does that money go? In the 90s, Israel along with the US and Jordan suggested (and began!) a project to restore some of Gaza's harbor and build a better pwer station. The plans were submitted, approved, and were in the initial stages. Half of the workers were shot dead in Gaza, by Terrorists. The plan for a new Gaza harbor stopped for lack of willing participants. In 2005 Israel decided to evacuate *ALL* of its settlments in the Gaza strip as a sign of willingness for Peace. Hundreds of homes, mostly agricultural businesses, were abandoned as-is or destroyed (to the request of the owners). The fields were left plowed. Within 24 hours of Hamas take over, the evacuated region was a garbage dump and the "warriors" of Hamas started shooting *MORE* rockets from it. I am not quite sure what you mean when you say the Palestinians had this land before the Israelis, but that, too, is historically inaccurate. I suggest you go read up on the war of 1948 (initiated by the Arab states), 1956 (same), 1967 (same) and 1973 (same), and a bit about the historical significance of the PLO and Fatah, and how the Palestinian people came to be where they are. The *FACT* is Jews and Arabs lived in Israel in relative peace for generations, and even after 1948 there was peace among the Arabs that were inside Israel. What you seem to be doing in your claims, bombus, is ignoring the VAST history and political decisions of two nations, not just one. I think you'll do yourself justice if you read up a bit about history and who was where and when. That said, the "who was where when" is irrelevant. You can look at all the countries around the world - none of them was "there first". All of them took their place using force, and some (like the USA and South America with the Spaniards and English) with more force than others. If you choose the "just side" or "deserving" side according to historical placing, then you'll need to decide how far in history you're supposed to go, and then completely rearrange the world map as we know it. Israel supports a 2 state solution. Israel does not WANT to control Gaza, nor do the Israeli citizens want to be the chaperons of the Palestinian people. Let them have their state; Israel was (and is) willing to support the creation of it, as it stated MANY times before. Arafat has signed agreements with Rabin to that effect, and Israel has been sending 8000 trucks a year into Gaza (under constant fire) filled with humanitarian aid and supplies. The drivers are shot at, and yet they still go in. There is a difference between Hamas (who took a position in the palestinian parliament through election, but took over the entire government through a bloody civil war against the Fatah) and the Palestinian people. As was said here before, if the war was against the Palestinians, it would take Israel (the "technologically advanced" Israel) about 48 hours to carpet-bomb and completely obliterate the region. Why is this not done, if Israel is such a non-caring murderous entity? Why is Israel risking its soldier's lives INSIDE Gaza in a confined-space combat (which is one of the most dangerous!) if Israel cares nothing for the lives of citizens? How is it that in a week-and-a-half of fighting in such a densly populated area, "ONLY" 500 Palestinians - 80% of which are Hamas militants (according to Hamas themselves!) - are dead? Wouldn't you think that if Israel wanted a "quick end" without caring for consequences, you would have many more civilians, many more dead, and a much quicker ending? It's very comfortable to take the bloody pictures and claim a one sided view of things. The question is - is that REALLY what happens, or is that just what the "blood thirsty" rating-hungry media cares to show. (sorry it cut off the following, I'm re-writing it now:) I don't think there's any discussion about the fact that the Palestinian people are poor and miserable in Gaza; but Israel is not the sole blame for that. Hamas is a terrorist organization who VIOLENTLY took control over the government, killing off Fatah opposition and using the population as hostages in their fights a few months ago. The money that comes from western countries goes somewhere - and not to the palestinian people themselves. Peace requires compromise from both sides. You can't compromise with a group that vows to kill you and refuses to talk.

ParanoiA, considering the fact the Palestinians are backed up by the Arab countries (that waged full blown, 3-front wars 5 times during recent history against Israel), It might not be as simple as deciding who the "little" and who the "big" guy is. Of course, that's not what you hear in the media. I wonder why. P.S: As someone who has family in the region, and friends on "the other side", I am TRULY hoping that by 2080 (and hopefully before that) the Palestinians would have their own *BLOSSOMING, SUCCESSFUL* state alongside Israel - in Peace...

Partial list (I will try to get something perhaps a bit more accredited than wikipedia) but it shows that there *WERE* rocket attacks on civilian cities during the time of the "cease fire": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008#June

Why do you say it won't stop the missiles? If the operation so far destroyed so many missile/rocket/mortar silos, and obliterated the terrorist infrastructure? There might still be random events, but not as relentless and neverending (and *long range*) as there used to be. Second, according to the UN 75% of the casualties were Hamas terrorists. According to Israel sources (+ Hamas website that seems to boast its "martyr dead"), 88% were terrrorists. Regardless of which is the right number, it's clear that *MOST* of the hits were Hamas' own infrastructure and people, and it delivered a very big blow to their operation, specifically the missile-launchers. Other than that, many of the Plestinians in Gaza are now free to go with Fatah (which they WEREN'T free to do before, because of the tight control of the Hamas and their 'winning' the civil war there, which was very bloody too, btw) and the chance for talk is actually increased; Fatah isn't the best ally but at LEAST it's willing to commence talks about peace. Hamas isn't. And finally -- what were Israel's options? To keep quiet while a million of its civilians are forced to live in bomb shelters? These things usually don't have a 'best solution', they have a 'least worst' solution. Even if you ignore the eight yeasr Hamas is bombing Israel, all you need to look at is the past six months: there was not ONE DAY of no-rockets from the Gaza strip, even while the so called "cease fire" was on. Not a single day. And Israel had tried talks, tried the international community, tried Egypt.. all but a military solution. And all that was during a time where there was SUPPOSED TO BE a cease fire. Not a "try not to throw missiles at Israel" agreement; a cease fire. my point is that I agree with you about the "it's not simple", I just disagree with how you continue it. I think it can be argued *how* Israel chose to react militarly and how long this should last, or whether or not ground troops should've been sent in, but I really don't see any other option other than a strict reaction after *eight years of constant missile attacks on civilian population* and six months of the Hamas extending the range of their missiles to target close to a million civilians. ~moo p.s: Reaper, Humanitarian Aid trucks went in and out of Gaza for years, the Huffington post just didn't cover it.

Then again, if Noah's Ark is true, then god rearranged the strata on purpose, since what we actually find DOESN'T fit a mass-drowning in such a scale, nor does it fit a 4000 year old planet. Either god's playing tricks on purpose to *TRY* and get everyone to disbelieve the bible - which would make him intentionally evil and unkind (and wherever the bible says the opposite would make the bible a lie) - or the bible's not an accurate depiction of the truth. Take your pick. Now, that said, we've already been through this. Unlike what you may think, you're not the only anti-science poster ever on this forum that ignored the rules (perhaps you should re read them) and tried to hijack valid scientific questions for the sake of their own religious preaching. What I find most amusing with such, is that if a Muslim, Hindu or Jew does the same tactics, suddenly your "logical capacities" return, and you begin demanding vigor. I suggest you go over the rules of the forum, refresh yourself on what logical fallacies are and how to avoid them, and reconsider the purpose of this forum. If you still insist on acting against all the above three, then perhaps you should leave to a more gullible, less scientific, less fact-demanding forum.

I am quite vigilantly against those groups who go and "plant a house" in the middle of nowhere just to be able to claim it. I think that tehy should be arrested and put to jail, at much faster than any of that happens. But to say that terrorists -- that blow up busses full of civilians in the middle of a city, that target populated areas AIMING AT CIVILIANS, who celebrate whenever people in Israel die -- those are the same as colonists? *really*? Wow. Other than that, the Palestinians weren't always "locked away". They worked and traveled in between Gaza and Israel for YEARS. The only times *we* closed off the passways is when they started with terrorist attacks that originated there. And what about Egypt? Gaza has a passway there too, which Israel has no control over. If this is such a "open air prison" then Egypt is at fault as well.

I think my post explained why your logic was faulty, you just ignored it. Let me make it simpler: Your statement of what evoultion is *DOES NOT FIT* with what evolution *ACTUALLY IS*. What you've done is TWIST evolution in your statement so it will be easier for you to "destroy" it. Nice trick, but it is absolutely faulty logic. Ignoring posts you can't answer is another form of faulty logic, too. ~moo

... WOW. Okay, let me give you a piece of advice. If you're going to summarize a scientific theory that evolved (oh yes, theories evolve too! ain't science cool) for a hundred years, and combine it with a mixture of theories from other disciplines (evolution is not abiogenesis), I think you should - first - read a bit what it *ACTUALLY* says. That would save you the trouble of writing such blatant misrepresentation of it, and us the misfortune of reading it. ~moo

Specifically when the "bad guys" are about to pull a trigger against your own civilians.

Hamas terrorists shoot the rockets into the air without much aim, with only the intention of hitting *SOMEONE*. They can't see where they're firing. Under your logic, they should stop, too. Israel is TARGETTING the terrorists (otherwise, there would be much more than 95% terrorists among the dead in such a densly populated place such as Gaza). The problem is that the terrorists are shooting indiscriminantly ANYWHERE and FROM CIVILIAN locations. The IDF has *called* the places to warn them before attacks -- called the HOUSE of the terrorist to warn him that an attack is coming, so the family will run off... Hamas has used these calls to *call other people into the house* and eitehr increase the death/casualty toll or use them as human shields. Hamas themselves boast about their dead leader who initiated the "human shield" method to PREVENT the Israeli military from warning people before attacks.. http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/ArticlePrintPage.aspx?xyz=QrrxVt3TvzXUUXrd2E%2bKdQBAlgyb55%2fynOLl7gNPIB7kdQan1PIPbi4Yz4qDnQsmI5mw%2fZLBPwEI9e0cRV7YbMLBOBX9eObjj3nPt6F9Ns4%2fYdQr7pN2Vg%3d%3d (sorry, I couldn't find a non-print page.. be warned that this page opens a printer dialog). It's not as simple as rules of shooting, really. Check this out: Storing weapons in a bathroom: http://www.israelpolitik.org/2009/01/06/where-does-hamas-keep-its-weapons/

Israel doesn't have the goal of totally defeating the Palestinians, CaptainPanic, just Hamas. While it's true that they were elected, it's not accurate to say they're the government -- the "Prime minister" is Abbas (who *IS* conducting talks with Israel, just like his predecessor Arafat). They were elected *the largest part* of the parliament. Then, there was a civil war a few months ago between Hamas and it's opposition party Fatah (Arafat's party), a *very* bloody one. Lots of civilians dead; Fatah COMPLETELY lost. Hamas increased its attacks on Israel after that, and made it more "official" (the rocket launchers now had official Hamas Police uniforms, they made arrests and terrorised the people themselves and stepped up their persecution of the opposition party and anyone that doesn't agree. That's not democracy. It's democracy gone bad. The Palestinian authority receives *tens of millions of dollars* in foreign aid (plus quite a lot from Israel, you'd be surprised), and yet the people of Palestine has seen NOTHING of this money while Hamas is arming itself and its leaders are living in excessive comfort. The Gaza Strip is very small. If Israel's goal was to fight the Palestinians (as opposed to fighting terrorists, which is much harder) it wouldn't have risked soldiers' lives in such a ground assault - all it had to do is carpet-bomb the entire strip, and within 24 hours there would BE NO palestinians. The fact Israel's putting such effort in targetted attacks and sending soldiers on foot to flush out terrorist cells, shows that the war is not about the general palestinian people - but the Terrorist organization that took over (Hamas). ... It's not about the Palestinians. It's about a terrorist organization taking advantage of *BOTH* sides. Israel's only goal is to stop the rocket attacks and return to a time where peace talks were possible. Like here: ~moo

I believe I heard somewhere that the universe is best compared (in shape) to a doughnut. In that case, there shouldn't be any edges. Anywhere... just edge to what we see, maybe, like npts2020 suggested. Any astrophysics experts to the rescue? *cough*martin*coughcough*

Which is why it's not done yet.

One could say (and did) that the Palestinians have won the 2000 intifada. And the 1982 intifada, depends who you're asking. But I tend to agree with this, only on a different angle. Without meaning to be racist, the arab nations have a lot of 'respect' and 'honor' issues; they received a heavy blow when they attacked Israel in the wars (1948, 1956, 1967, 1973) and lost. The peace with Egypt was possible (in 1978) only after they virtually won the 1973 war (lost in terms of "territory" but they celebrate as win, and they probably should, judging from the death toll/damage to israel). But it's not like we're fighting army-vs-army this time. where you can examine the "goals" and decide a win or something. We're fighting a group of terrorists that are targetting civilians *ON PURPOSE*. We can't afford to let them "win"... And if they're not even willing to talk about a compromise, we're stuck. Israel gave out land ALREADY so it's really unfair from the world to say they're not willing to give land and compromise.

It's not that simple; the terrorists are using the homes of civilians, or mosques, or hospitals, or schools to launch attacks. On top of that, as you could probably see from their reaction towards the "opposition party" members (here, for example) they are not very "friendly" to people who oppose them. So the population doesn't oppose. Gaza is not rich, as you may well know, the leaders are the ones often taking the money the world is sending over (point in case: Arafat and his wife). On top of that, they are shooting and killing aid workers. Electrical company crew were shot dead for coming to fix electrical lines, and a few truck drivers were shot at as they were driving supplies and humanitarian aid in. The claim that humanitarian aid does not enter gaza is a pure myth. In the past year 7000 trucks entered the strip under fire. It's very difficult to talk "rationality" (restitution, compromise, etc, *on both sides*, btw) when the other side seems to act in extreme contrast to rationality.

It's not like Israel reacted with excess force with the first missile fired. We're talking about EIGHT YEARS of constant attack from the Gaza strip, while talks were attempted again and again, while Israel evacuated *ALL* of the settlements in Gaza (one-sidedly, btw), while ceasefire after ceasefire was overturn by Hamas' missiles. While a soldier was kidnapped. While terrorist cells went into Israel through tunnels and commited terrorist attacks on innocent civilians inside Israel. Eight years. How long would you think the USA (or any other country) would wait and talk while its citizens are being targetted on a daily basis? I would be surprised if anyone would wait a matter of months, let alone eight years. Really.. it's not as simple as saying that Israel just reacted. This has been an ongoing situation. The media, however, has a tendency to broadcast the bloodier/messier/"weak-are-suffering" message, on the expense of balance.

Ah, well, in that case, I think you should ask the people of Southern Israel who lived under constant missile fire for eight years.

Why not? It was a good point, made politely.