mooeypoo

Yes, that's because the Hizbullah (and actually, the palestinians aswell) has a fantastic realisation of PR, while Israel has the worst PR ever. Its time Israel understands that PR is a critical endevour, and starts using it at LEAST as much as its enemies do. ~moo

There's a huge turmoil in Israel over this, people are demanding for the prime minister's resignation and a complete inspection of the entire situation (this, unfortunately, was not the only mistake Israel has made). But to put it in a bit of a better context, Israel DID release those people after learning they weren't who they were looking for. Yes, countries make mistakes. America still has a big base near cuba where they hold people without trials over suspected relation to terrorist groups, don't they? I am not justifying (FAAAR from it!) I am just saying that at LEAST Israel's action in releasing those people, AND the demand for a full scale investigation of the matter (and others) should also say what the people of Israel view as ethics. The parents of casualties, btw, wrote a letter demanding the Prime Minister to resign. They wrote that they have sent their children to fight a just cause, that was handled by a mumbling government. Powerful letter. ~moo

Mr D, As someone who's english is not her native language, I wanted to say that I enjoy your posts very much, but, and please don't take this as me critisizing your grammar (i'm probably the last that should or could do that ;-) ) I found it just a bit difficult to read your style. While it's true that styling is the "conformism", it isn't only that.. styling makes a more comfortable reading, and when a thread is full of posts, it is important - beyond of wht you want to deliver in your ideas - to try and make them easy and fluent to read.. Your ideas are good and contributing to the debate, don't take the remarks people put here about your styling personally. Just understand that in a forum, the medium of communication is writing, and when a person writes in a way that makes it difficult to read, his ideas get swallowed, sometimes ignored, and that's really a shame. That said, keep on being a nonconformist! nonconformists rule. Have a great day, ~moo

Pangloss, since it has been twice now that a remark like that has been posted after one of my posts, I will take it as me being the problem. I disagree completely, but I respect your authority as a moderator. Since this discussion handles my PEOPLE - my friends, people I have lost in battles, children I have seen torn to bits and pieces, and my personal experiences in this specific war, it seems I can't just let go some of the more emotional aspects of this. When a person deals with this type of argument in an illogical, inconsistent, inappropriate debating method, makes flawed claims, unbased assumptions and puts "words" into my people's mouths and thoughts, it is not easy for me to stand idly by and see this. Specifically not when the arguments he is making recieve legitimate answers, and some seem to even take his flawed and decieted claims as truths. Unfortunately, I had to repeat the fact that these arguments are flawed, since they are. I was utterly ignored. I will repeat my point however: If this type of debate-handling by this person was conducted in a Scientific Thread, and the inconsistencies, flawed assumptions, oversimplifying the situation and unbased "facts" were raised, in relation to an evolutionary debate or an experiment thread, the things that were raised (regardless of the contents, but more of the logical fallacies) would recieve utter criticism. But, I seem to be raising the wrong kind of response, specifically from Administrators. I will be the bigger person, and leave this thread be, at least for now. I will have to strongly try to ignore it, and try to trust people to not fall for fallacies of any kind. Have a good one. ~moo

Another thing that popped up from your repeated arguments (which you refuse to answer, again, our question, which is a completely valid one, and I don't blame you that you can't answer it): What you are SAYING, essentially, is that you would expect Israel to sit there, letting its civilians be slaughtered, its soldiers captured (and probably murdered, if not a lot worse), slowly. Why? No reason.. just to "not escalate things". But then, your enemies WOULD (and have!) escalated things by adding the ammount of rockets on your civilians. No. you sit quiet. You let your enemies escalate, and you won't do anything. What would you wait for? The distruction of your entire country? That IS what your enemy wants. It is what they try to do. They will not stop until they have that. Are you waiting for the world to react? Israel's been waiting for the world to react for 6 years in terms of Hizbullah, and a LOT longer than that seeing kids board busses to school and blow up to tiny bits. All you find from these kids (and I had the misfortune of being in some of these sites, I don't wish it to anyone, trust me) is a hand holding a doll, and bits of hair strands somewhere in the near park. Stop telling us what you WOULDN'T do. Tell us what you WOULD do. Don't be a coward, and refuse to answer a question just because you are afraid to live in a world that is not perfect. Good morning, sir. The world ISNT perfect. Waiting and doing nothing IS making things worse; it gets your children into tiny bits, and a third of your nation locked inside their basements, many of them killed. Give. Us. A. Solution. Stop hiding behind meaningless statements of "I don't know what to do but whatever israel did is flawed". It would've been, if the world was perfect. It isn't. Sucks, isn't it. ~moo

Budul, you seem to think that your arguments are true just because you claim them. Again, you fail to learn history. The Israeli military actually WOULD have done that, and defend its own, even if it had "only 200 soldiers and 10 tanks". Israel did that against THREE FRONTS in 1948, a DAY after it was declared a state, when it in fact had NO military and no tanks. Read your history before you make claims. Beyond the fact that you are, again, over simplifying things, which is another wonderfully flawed thing to do with human politics, you are also dead wrong. Israeli population did not want someone to PAY for their transgressions. Israeli military is quite strong, and quite witty (read history, Israel proven that several times). If Israel wanted to find "Someone to pay", you'd have a flattenned southern lebanon, regardless of civilians or women or children. Israel would have much less soldier casualties, since they'd never send soldiers into hazardous villages, they'd just send in choppers and jets. You are again creating a situation out of your own imagination. The israeli military - lead by the government - wanted the bombings to recede or stop completely. The military knew (and the heads of the military CLAIMED IT officially in every press conference) that the war itself will not bring stability to the area, only peace talks will, but without this war, peace talks will not be able to HAPPEN. You cannot speak with a nation that harbors terrorists that fire 200 (or 100, or 10, or 5, or 3094903211234, or 10 to the power of a three, or even a single one) MISSILES A DAY (read ti again: A DAY. EVERY. DAY.) on civilian houses (Again read this one: Civilian houses. CIVILIANS. Children. Women. Elderly. SCHOOLS... Civilians..) A DAY!! Even one a day is enough to shout Stop. You just can't negotiate with a group of terrorists that want you dead, and you have nothing to discuss with a country that claims it doesn't WANT the hizbullah in its territory, but refuses to disarm, let anyone else disarm them, or get help in any way. You just CAN'T. You would let your own people die. Luckily, Israel's government decided that after six years, it is time to say Stop. Don't claim what Israel would've done, and don't pretend to know what the desire of the Israelis were, specifically if you are so much against learning about the history of the Israeli people and its fight against the enemy states around it. And unlike Bettina, I gave up asking you to answer our questions. You are so far away from real reality, it is just not interresting anymore to hear your side. The people in this thread, up until now, had mostly done their research before suggesting alternatives or critisizing either country. Some I disagree with, obviously, but at least I have common grounds for an argument, and a logical point of view. With you, it's like fighting a radio transmission. You ignore what you wish, and throw invalid FALSE claims that are not even supported by not very distant history. When you say "What would ISrael do.. this and that" it is pretending to understand a situation you didn't even bother to study. You are flat out mistaken. Israel WOULD do what you claim is "obviously not". And you'dve seen that if you'd read a bit of background information. The PROOF, is what lies on the ground; Israel DID those things before. This is the ultimate proof of what it could, would, or wouldn't do. One of Israel's DRIVING FORCES is the ultimate sacrifice for captured civilians or soldiers. Throughout history (if you'd bother to read it), the fight to return POWs or Civilian casualties or prisoners was RELENTLESS. It was a battle taht was completely and utterly supported by the people of Israel, and a battle that was done (and still is done) politically through talking, or if that is not an option, through military operations. You claim one thing in one post, and then claim a completely different thing in another, expecting everyone to take your word for it. The irony in this entire situation, is that if this was a scientific-subject we'd be debating, you'd be utterly crunched in the debate for not preparing your arguments, and claiming circular logic and false facts. You'd be asked to go study the material before making claims. What an irony that such unfounded claims keep repeating themselves by the same person in a political forum that is run by Scientific-POV Forum Network. This is not the way to discuss politics. Or anything, for that matter. ~moo

budul, I never said Israel managed to disarm Hizbullah. ON the contrary, I said this wasn't one of the achieved goals. I also said it was an unrealistic goal. Read my posts. ~moo

No one wants to drive off the Palestinians away. Even if Israel "wanted" this, it's not something realistic enough to even concider. Israel wants peace. Peace can only be obtained with the current situation, and it is not a simple thing. Also, there is a seperation between the Palestinian state and Israel state. Their "birthrate" might increase THEIR population, not Israel's.. ~moo

Martin, to top everything, your suggestion is the one who is racist. Israel would never pass this law, regardless of Palestinians. Israel, in case you have forgotten, has a large population of Israeli-Arabs. Arabic people who are CITIZENS of ISRAEL. While the country is not perfect (show me ONE that is), the israeli arabs are holding Israeli passports, and are a FULL citizens of the state. They have a representation in the Knesset. That representation, by the way, travelled to Syria and back: an action that would get anyone into Jail for treason, and yet these knesset members were not tried for that; Israel understands that their Arabic population - while being full citizens with all the rights AND OBLIGATIONS attatched - should not be demanded to adhere to the Jewish laws, or sometimes to a law that may offend them. This type of suggestion is what presents Israel as racist, but other than your random idea, you have shown no proof for that matter. Your idea is offensive to both Israelis, Arab Israelis and Palestinians. And it is this type of idea that STARTS racism. ~moo

This is one of the most superficial cheapest unknowing representations of the conflict in the Middle East. A conflict that lasted for 2000 years, has now been degraded to namecalling the nations and comicbook subtitling. You know, there are actually people in Israel who wants peace. There are actually people in Israel who are willing to give the Palestinians (who, by history, has NOTHING to do there) land and help building their own state so that they will have peace and quiet. There are actually people in israel who are willing to give half of Jerusalem (the holiest city to judaism, and a city that is never even mentioned in the quran ONCE) to the Palestinians in the sake of peace. There are actually people in Israel - most of the country by a long shot, to be exact - who do NOT want to kill innocent Palestinians. Who want to see the terrrorism evaporate from the area so that the agreements Israel is trying for 60 years to sign are kept, and the stability is kept. What these posts just did was dminishing ALL of those people - the majority of the Israeli population -- and most of the Palestinians families (who wish for peace aswell) to a group of comicbooks characters, bent on the distruction of one another. I understand that being far from the situation means that you won't understand it fully, and it is okay, but between not fully grasping a situation, and telling it like THAT there is a very big difference. Very Very Big. ~moo

I didn't personally offend anyone, I said that he was condecending, which he is. That is not a personal insult, it is an insight on the way this thread is going. ~moo

This is beyond rediculus. Unlimited?? This is like talking to a brick door. All you want is Israel to be Baaaad. No matter why, if it's realistic, if it's good suggestion. You don't give a damn. No matter what Israel does, other than letting its civilians be murdered, it is a bad nation. Israel DID THAT, damnit, check what you're suggesting! After the attacks started, Israel waited for almost ten hours before going in. After the airforce went in, Israel waited more before sending in ground troops, and while the fighting, Israel wanted TALKS. If you say "i'd try to figure out a better solution" you're being condecending. Israel TRIED TO THINK of those. It found none. If you think there's a better one, GIVE IT! Don't say "I'd try". Yes, I would try too. What would happen if you'd FAIL in finding a better solution???? You'd just keep unlimited amount of people being hurt, just so YOU can have the condecending appeal. You keep ignoring us when we ask for solution. If I ask you to give me one, saying "try to think of something better" is NOT A SOLUTION! It's a condecending remark. I can't keep this argument going, you're like a thick brick wall ignoring our questions when feel like it, and being extremely condecending. If Canada attacked your house with missiles, mister New York man, you would be crying to have someone in your side helping crush the terrorists who kill your family and destroy your homes. What would you have done then if your government would've decided that it's better to have UNLIMITED DEATHS than to defend you? Don't even answer me, I'm not interrested. Until you put your feet back on our earth, talk logically, and suggest things that are realistic instead of just looking for every possible way to blame israel for all your troubles, the world troubles, and lebanon troubles, I'm just plain not interrested. Some people here were against Israel's actions, but had good points to suggest. You're just repeating idiotic unrealistic condecending points. Unlimited lives. God help us all. ~moo

Israel is willing to have smaller the size of what they have now (speaking of giving out territories, remember?) and stay where they are. History, Tradition and Right of Land are not things that can be just erased by that kind of suggestion. Plus, if you read history, Israel almost was started somewhere else (Uganda), but that idea flopped. Zionism is something that existed for 2000 years, on Israel, for Israel, on the LAND of Israel. The prayers, the traditions, the stories, the history, all goes to Jerusalem and Israel. That suggestion is demeaning and idiotic. If I'd suggest the Palestinians would move their land somewhere else to get a bigger one, I'd get fried in a heated argument (and quite justly so). Why THIS type of suggestion gets the attention it does is quite offensive to the people of Israel. Should Americans just move because the Land used to belong to the Native Americans, and it is now being threatenned by terrorism? No. Neither should Israel. That said, I'm also not quite sure giving terrrorists exactly what they wanted is what i would like to see happen. ~moo

Amusing concept, but =quite= a ridicule to history, don't you think? ~moo

They're a very good P-R'ed Terrorist Organization. They are not ACTIVELY doing anything for the people, but they twist it so that the people next to them think they're the source of all good. ~moo

I don't assume criticism in Israel, I think you are completely right. And Israel is critisizing itself, btw. Good. Though I still believe this war was a no-choice war, there were flaws. Now is the time for investigations, and it is exactly what Israel is doing.. That said, I am also realistic - while everyone lost is a true statement, there is no doubt that relatively speaking, Israel probably lost the least, since it was (and is) the powerful side. I just hope that for the FUTURE this venture will bring better times and will prove to bring more good than bad at the long run. ~moo

Jim, I'd agree with you, if only Hizbullah gave a damn about people's lives.. But about the world knowing, well.. I hope you're right. I hope this actually did raise the awareness to the Hizbullah's threat along with Iran/Syria cooperation. ~moo

Tetrahedrite, I agree with you, but I think that just as both sides 'gained something' (it's quite hard to say that in light of all the deaths), both sides also lost a lot. Israel got way over its head; it may have gained pushing the Hizbullah back away from the borders and lowering its abilities to hurt Israeli citizen, and showed that Hizbullah gets ACTIVE help from Iran (like seen here), but it did not severely mamed the Hizbullah, and its economical state - specifically in the north parts of the state - will be a very hard thing to fix, and will take a long long time for both sides. Lebanon gained in the effect that the Hizbullah now is weakenned and the Lebanese army can now have a more secure control over its land. Also, showing the support the Hizbullah got from Iran and Syria will help deminish those forces (with the world's help) from Lebanon's territory, and the lebanese people (from their own testimony) would love to see that happen. It lost in terms of economy and infrastructure (reffer to the same link I gave with Israel), a situation that will take a long while to fix aswell. The Hizbullah might have won the polls of the world (as we have seen in some sections of this forum aswell), and has regained the love and appreciation and economical help from Syria and Iran, and the fact that it was not disarmed, but it did lose its ability to fully control the territory, and some of its "glory" among the citizen of Lebanon. So realistically speaking, all sides "won and lost". Notice that I didn't mention "both" sides in this conflict. There are no two sides, there are THREE. The hizbullah is seperate from Lebanon. It didn't appear to be at some point during the deliberations on the ceasefire, but it is. Hizbullah's goals are not (and shouldn't be) the same as Lebanon's goals. We should really mention Lebanon as a country aswell, and not include it inside the Hizbullah's side. ~moo

Yeah but concidering the fact that so far we've almost completely failed to find any planets similar enough to our own planet for us to populate an alternative place, the future in that aspect seems quite bad.. :\ ~moo

I agree completely, scicop. It's very frustrating to think we have nothing to do about it though.. I once tried to find all the companies destroying Amazon Rainforests for their own profit and ban them, but concidering the fact one of them is McDonalds and the likes, it seems like a one-man-fight.. too many people just don't care. I wish there WAS something we can do.. ~moo

You're right Severian, this hurts the Lebanese economy dearly. It also hurts Israeli Economy dearly - since the northern cities rely mostly on tourism (Christian pilgrims coming to the "holy sites" of nazareth, Sea of Galilee and more) and some agriculture fields (which mostly were burnt in fires from the missiles). Both economies were badly damaged, and it's now time to fix them :\ I would say, though, that in the long term, the disarmament of Hizbullah will benefit both sides economy and general population, so even though the damage to both sides was extensive, I would at least hope that we will see much bigger climbs in the next few years than would've been possible during continuous missiles Hizbullah has been firing and Israel military's attempt to stop them for the past six years. Perhaps the two states can finally cooperate in order to bring a dramatic change in the entire region. That, however, will have to be accopmanied by Lebanon's will to stop cooperating with Syrian military and Iranian army guard. ~moo

I know, and since I understood from your point where the idea that Israel doesn't care about children came from, I decided to point out why I think this idea is flawed. The meaning was not to say the picture you've given is wrong, it was just to say it's irrelevant.. pictures are usually one sided. Mine are too, obviously. By the way; NOW - after the gun fire died out in the ceasefire - israel starts to look into its own actions. As I said before, Israel is far from being an angel, and the country itself knows it. There are already (quite soon) inquiries into the behaviour and decision making of the government and military. This doesn't make that war any less justified though, it just shows that Israel - like all other countries - is not perfect. But unlike many countries, specifically in Israel's region, Israel is actually DOING something with it. The fact Ethics is being debated with such strong will inside the country when the blood didn't even dry on the ground, shows how much it IS important to us. Oh, I completely agree, MM. Israel needs to take responsibility on MANY things its done utterly wrong. But the debate as it seemed to be going for the past few posts seemed to be judging Israel ONLY, with no concideration of its surrounding countries. And again, I will repeat this notion, since I think it is one of the best aspects of Israel: The fact we are continuously debating and criticising the WAY our government and military and intelligence behaves, KNOWING that we are in constant war for our lives (when a bus explodes in your neighborhood, it's a war for your life), show how much we at least TRY. Palestinians don't do that, though, and it is a huge difference. When a country has checks and balances, it may be not perfect, but it at least has a potential and desire to be more ethical. When a country refuses to check itself, and declares the things Palenstinians declare, or educate their youngs to utterly hate jews and incorporate hatered in their educational system, and when the parents are pushing the idea aswell, you have a country that is less likely to commence talking. This is also very frustrating. I want peace. I want peace so much, I am willing to give half my country (historically, the territories i am talking about belong to the jews, and yet i am willing to give them) - territories that have the blood of my people, fighting on them for two millenia - for peace. It's frustrating because it doesn't seem like there is a true organization that is willing to talk peace in the other side. I'm sorry, MM, it might be my bad english (and I don't mean this as cynical), I just kinda lost you.. I.. don't understand your question.. failure of what? uhm.. please explain, I missed your point for the question. About the schools: The teaching of hate and martyrdom is incorporated throughout the educational system. Not only schools, also after-school activities, media, etc. A child is being brainwashed. You see it every day in Israel, sadly. I really recommend a movie that is far from being biased towards Israel, and shows a true situation that happens in Gaza in relation to the kids. It's an HBO production, called "Death in Gaza", by James Miller (who was killed at the end of the movie by a gunshot, not sure which side, but thought to be Israeli). He speaks about the children in the Gaza strip, and their ideas. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BBOU90/104-8157863-4744707?v=glance&n=130 If you have any way to get it in DVD, watch it. It's very powerful, and shows a very honest picture about the area, in terms of the new generation there, and what is happening to it. Bettina: Thanks for the compliment It's nice to hear some good sides about a country that is in the middle of a continuous conflict, and has the most horrible public relations in the known universe. BTW, this is another thing that the israeli civilians are angry about - the bad PR. The arabs know how to use Media to their advantage and create the best PR they can get, while Israel neglects that side for the entire duration of its short existance. No wonder many of the people in the world just decide whos side they're on without knowing the facts; we neglect to SHOW our side.. PR is so important.. show both sides' PR, and let the average user do the check and cross-refferencing for himself, to see what is truely going on. Otherwise, people go by strong feelings or pictures of crying mothers on CNN. While Israeli crying mothers are not broadcasted.. ~moo