mooeypoo

Yeh, pictures have great influence. Sadly, these have great influence aswell: And these. And I've chosen the mild ones. Also, this is a nice refference to explain why pictures are not always telling the truth: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2000/9/Do+pictures+always+tell+the+truth.htm Pictures are usually one sided. There is no doubt people get hurt in war, but the question of whether or not Palestinian children (and Hizbullah followers) are brainwashed, is practically proven, if you search the net not too hard. The point of my post was not to compare lives, it was to show why the situation is crappy. Why a dramatic change in education is also needed as part of the peace process. ~moo

Interesting concept. I would like to know why you think Israel doesn't value Palenstinian children today (not trying to pick a fight here, just truely interrested to know where you reached that conclusion). Israel also tried to build trade centers with Palestinian State (Israel had a project to build a big marina and port in Gaza, to improve the Palestinian economy and perhaps get tourism). It started out, actually, but the situation (suicide bombers, Israeli workers being targetted inside Gaza and Palestinian government renouncing its support on the project) caused it to be put aside. The project, btw, was supposed to be completely paid for by Israel, having the Palestinian Authority "pay back" with time as a commerce treaty may be formed. It.. failed.. I would actually think that Palestinian Authority cares less about their own children. You see three year olds dressed as Martyrs in the streets in their mother's arms, while their mothers yell "my son will be a shahid".. there is no doubt that the problem of brain washing in the palestinian territory is incredible, but I am not sure what Israel can do about this. Here's a good article about it (I have more, if you guys want, but you can also find many online. It's a widespread phenomena, unfortunately): http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=11685 Here's another unfortunate representation of the brainwashing that goes on in the Palestinian Authority: http://www.aijac.org.au/review/2003/283/pmw-shahada.html It is believed that Israel needs to aid in resources, but that tends to be quite difficult when the money and resources we send are being eaten by the government officials, or when Israeli workers (Phone companies, for instance, to fix phone lines) are being shot to death by Palestinian snipers out of national 'reasons'. I wish there was a way to affect the Palestinian Schools. Those are constantly teaching hate and martyrdom, and when a person is being raised on those ideals, it is very difficult to speak to them, or expect much of a peace talk to commence in the future. ~moo

I don't think anyone in Israel (specifically the military forces) expect anything more than to kick the rocket launchers further away from the border. As I said, Israel continued the peace-talks.. it was obvious that the war itself will not bring to massive changes in the area in terms of peace, but the war was intended to get the missile attacks receded, and it mostly succeeded. So I agree Pangloss. ~moo

The moment Lebanon will be open to IMPLEMENT the disarmament of Hizbullah (talking is nice, but implement is what makes the difference) I might start being calmer and more optimistic.. :\ ~moo

Oops, sorry, wasn't supposed to split that thread. ERASED and passed to the last one. ~moo

so what you're saying is that no one should take ANY form of responsibility' date=' but Israel should take ALL of it. No one should be judged by the same measures you pick to judge Israel so severely. Lovely. No, they weren't. http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/terrorism- obstacle to peace/palestinian terror since 2000/Victims of Palestinian Violence and Terrorism sinc ^^ This, may I remind you, the Intifada started by the palestinian AUTHORITY(!) after Israel offered great deals of COMPROMISE never head of before in israel. Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_process_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict#Camp_David_2000_Summit Until you supply a VALID source for this claim, I will just ignore it. Stop throwing propaganda. Israel never said it, and if you claim Israel did, SHOW US. You really do NOT know your history do you. The southern-labanon army was Israel's attempt to HELP LEBANON defend itself against Hizbullah. It started with Lebanon's request (imagine that). Israel aided in both education and training to soldiers OF THE STATE against the militias that hurt them. When Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000, however, expecting the military of Southern Lebanon to STAY as a permanent force applying the government's will, they got another thing coming. Southern Lebanon Military had to FLEE for their lives. Their beloved Lebanon did NOTHING to help them. We tried that too. We even gave sanctuary to those Southern Lebanon Military soldiers, after their OWN COUNTRY wanted to just butcher them all. READ. HISTORY. We tried. We tried. We tried. Read up history, stop throwing untrue claims to the air, geesh. READ! Other than that, let me tell you something: The world doesn't operate "one front at a time". While we are at this war - attempting to STOP the missiles (this is the entire purpose of this battle), we STILL operate on the political front. No one thinks (and Israeli official STATE this) that this war will get us towards PEACE. It's not the purpose of this war. This is a no-choice war to STOP hizbullah missiles. Peace - or a cease fire, as you can see happening now - will and have resulted only by talks. But the fact we want to talk doesn't mean we are willing to be bombarded and have our civilians killed during the process. How 'bout you stop blaiming Israel for everything, and start blaiming the LEBANEZE GOVERNMENT, who instead of taking RESPONSIBILITY over its own damn land and kick Hizbullah's ass with OFFICIAL MILITARY POWER (trust me, Israel would help in WHATEVER they wanted; we've done it before). Instead, the Lebaneze government just REFUSES to any kind of help from the world: When the world asked for an official Peace Keeping force, the Lebaneze insisted it will have no official POWER to stop hizbullah. When the world asked to disown Hizbullah and throw it out of the government (for it acting AGAINST the country's best interrest), the Lebaneze refused. There are TWO SIDES to peace talks. Demanding Israel would stop its fights to defend itself must come with ANOTHER SIDE'S promise that Israel won't HAVE to defend itself. Well, post them again. I haven't seen ANYTHING VALID (and I stress VALID) to prove Israel is being a terrorist State. I want to be "pleased" aswell. You have yet to give me a valid solution for peace in the region. We don't live in a fairy tale, where you can just be "PLEASED" with the world and that being enough. So now you DO ADMIT you called Israel terrorist state. Well, that's at least better than ignoreing your own words. I have never heard this coming from Haim Ramon's mouth, but to be honest, I could believe it did in the spur of the moment. People sometimes speak from their stomach. There are people killed, remember? I am far from justifying this remark. If this was said as it was (in context), then Minister Ramon should be fired from the government. I truely believe that. That said, let me tell you another thing: A Country's war-effort ethics and methods are judged by their ACTIONS in war, and not by what they are SAYING. If Israel were to send a nuclear bomb over lebanon, but their ministers would say "We love peace!" you'd take WORDS with less validity. And you would be right. While words SHOULD be calculated - specifically by politicians - the fact that ONE said it, doesn't mean it is the way Israel fights. And all you need to do is LOOK at the way Israel fights, to see what the agenda is. If Israel concidered the entirety of southern lebanon (with no regards to civilians) as a threat, then ground forces -- more likely to be hurt, killed or fail -- would not be sent in. We love our soldiers. We would just send planes and plow the area. Boom. No southern lebanon. Everyone knows we HAVE the power to do that. And yet: Israel didn't. It chose to risk the soldiers in a more hazardous type of battle, than to just plow through the area with bombs. What does that tell you? If Israel concidered the entirety of southern lebanon a threat, and cared nothing about civilians, it would've just blown buildings to ashes WITHOUT notice. Notice to the enemy makes no strategic sense; it tells the enemy WHERE you are going to attack next. Does that sound like a good strategy for a conquering army? What does THAT tell you? If Israel concidered the entirety of southern lebanon a threat, then the military operation would first be completed, israeli presence would be continously KEPT in southern lebanon to PRESERVE the "security-territory" and keep the rocket launchers AWAY from the border. Instead, they adhered to the ceasefire not only by stopping the fighting, but by pulling forces OUT. What does THAT tell you? So yes. War is also about what people say, and Minister Ramon should be sent home in shame for what he's said. But the fact he claimed it doesn't make it true. Israel's prime minister said DIFFERENT things, ALL THE TIME. Israel's chief of staff said COMPLETELY THE OPPOSITE - continuously. Chosing who you quote is a nice thing, but it is showing a distorted image of the situation. First, I am a woman. Second, I didn't say I know BETTER THAN YOU, I said I KNOW from personal experience. I never claimed to know what you know, I just stated what I KNOW. Third, you may take it whichever way you chose. Luckily for all the scientists in SFN, I don't take their words as condecending when they say "I know better than you since I studied Physics and explored this theory" as condecending. They don't condecende, they just speak the truth. Is that your way of avoiding dealing with my point? The war was a lot longer than one month, you keep forgetting the ISRAELI SIDE OF THINGS -- six years (and more) of constant bombardments, and deaths. That said, you DO NOT READ YOUR DAMN HISTORY. It's like talking to a brick wall. We TRIED to help Lebaneze army get a good stand and help kick hizbullah's ass. The LEBANEZE GOVERNMENT REFUSED. What, in god's name, do you expect Israel to do when their civilians are being bombarded with 100+ missiles A DAY. Lebanon is the one in need to take RESPONSIBILITY and KICK the HIZBULLAH out! If they can't, they can ask the world for help: I can SWEAR to you, that both Israel and the USA, and aaaaallll the european countries, will jump to their help in WHATEVER they want. But instead, they REFUSE help of any sort in ridding themselves of hizbullah. They refuse to get ANY presence in the area that halps fighting Hizbullah. They keep calling Hizbullah's actions JUST. And you call ISRAEL a state of terrorism. Interresting. No one said that. What they did say (and show) is that Hizbullah takes civilian buildings to put their rocket launchers in. They put their rocket launchers in Mosques, their targetters inside buildings with civilians in them. When the Israeli military wishes to bombard ONLY the specific location, without causing harm to civilians, they drop leaflets WARNING PEOPLE to get the crap OUT of places where hizbullah has a big-ass-cannot-be-missed missile launcher. The media never tells you about the places where Israeli forces actually managed to hit ONE FLOOR inside a building (that happens a lot actually) where the terrorist was in. But again; this is not a perfect world. Bombs are not superaccurate. Civilians should know better than to allow MISSILE LAUNCHERS in their front yard, and stay in that yard drinking coffee. Other than that, Israel has other targets. Like full BUILDINGS serving the hizbullah, or military posts. Those will be blown with bombs. No civilians inside THERE, and if there are, it would be the same as them bringing children to actively fight in a war (Which.. they did! History again! Sagger Children!! read up, I'm tired of doing the work for you, If you don't find it, I'll help). Dude, you are making no sense. What the hell do you mean "with who"???? With who do you WANT peace talks to be TRIED! With a country! With representatives of Hizbullah (ha! Imagine that!) with representatives of LEBANON! Do you really claim Israel should commence its peace talks with the CIVILIANS of lebanon? Should I remind you that the GOVERNMENT was elected? It represents (or SUPPOSED TO) the people??? It's amazing. Everything Israel does is not good for you. Give us a damn solution, or stop being a hypocrite! "with who.." JESUS. They didn't send them though. They don't LACK support from the world. They would've had help from the USA, the UN, Israel and Europe to keep their forces enforcing Lebanese rules. They didn't do that. They refused to have any kind of active force AIDING THEM in ridding themselves from Hizbullah. God. This is so frustrating,man, you are not reading up on your history. Or your current events. "They offered" Shit, Israel offered to give 95% of the west bank to the palestinians! Wars and Peace don't fall on OFFER. They fall on ACTIONS. GIVE ME A VALID ALTERNATIVE. Instead of saying "Plenty", how 'bout you actually NAME SOME. It IS important. You bring issues into this debate that belong to peace-time, not to wartime. War has casualties. Yah. We know. Nobody likes it either. So is lebanon. YOU are misinformed. 1. Many attacks were prevented; Israel caught the terrorist just before he blew himself out. http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp and http://www.adl.org/main_Israel/hamas_attacks.htm and many more. LOOOK IIITTTT UUPPPPP before you claim stupid claims. And may I remind you that HAMAS (a terrrorist organization hitting non-israeli targets ASWELL, ahem) never took off the clause in its manifesto calling for the distruction of Israel. We don't talk about El Qaeda, though these organizations ARE connected, in some form or another. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1145961243718 and you state that I am the one spreading misinformation. Judging oneself on higher ethics than the rest of the world is called being a hypocrite. Oh geesh, you're right, we should call it "children playing 'how many pieces can a bus be split into'". Terrorism? Who dares calling a muslim blowing up a bus full of children muslim terrorism! Who dares! if it was "some guy" you might've bene right. If it was "no terrorists in the civinity" you might've been right. But both are wrong. Start reading up your OWN PEOPLE'S HISTORY, friend. And you still haven't offered any VALID solution; or any VALID way Israel could've dealth with the situation without going to an armed battle against hizbullah. ~moo

Winners in war are judged by history. Only time will tell. Hopefully, both lebanon and Israel won by stopping Hizbullah terrorists. With the current cease fire, we will just have to wait and see. ~moo

Just something I encountered btw online: http://ambivablog.typepad.com/ambivablog/2006/08/lebanon_a_victi.html Called "Lebanon a victim? What a joke!" Interresting Read. Note that the one quoted is Michael Behe. From Lebanon. ~moo

Moreover, these things were attempted before. Israel TRIED (and still is trying, despite the fact it utterly FAILED each and every time) to have a talk. To have peace agreements, or settlements, or anything of this sort. They failed. And yet we don't give up, we try still.. but we can't just sit idly by while our civilians are being bombarded and killed. I just wish there was another way to stop this. I don't believe much in the U.N (Pangloss nailed most of the reason why), but I sencerely hope they will achieve peace in the region. But peace means that no terrorist groups sitting inside a country's civilian house attempts to hurt Israeli civilians aswell. Speaking of which, may I remind people that the great poor bombarded lebanon did NOTHING to stop Hizbullah. They didn't even send their own military.. they didn't even agree to TRY. They don't even agree to a force that is allowed to maintain Hizbullah's disarmament. I'd say this makes the situation a bit more complicated, since it transfer it from completely "Non-State-Militia" fights, into a "Country-supported" terrorist group. ~moo

Reaaaaally??? I had no idea! Wait.. uhm.. I was sure since weight is the force that gravity has on an object, it is being presented only with Newton units.. interresting. Well.. to my defense (I feel very defensive today.. I only started with the pounds/ounces a few months ago when I moved to the USA. I always used Kg... the entire pounds system seems rediculously built to my taste. Same goes with Feet and Inches, but that's just me ~moo

Oops. you're right.. I'd blame the fact English is my second language, but I can't really, since it's a name.. Sorry hehe ~moo

You know what I wish? I wish the world had a smart smartest smarter bomb. One that goes only, and directly to where you point it. One that not only never misses, it never causes any damage to any of the surroundings. Only to it's specific target. Damn. Too bad our world isn't perfect. If it sounded like I'm cynical, I am not. I really do wish that. And I really think that all the bad in such wars against militia, specifically one that involves citizens, comes from this. It could've been the perfect solution. ~moo

By that logic, I would say it is Hizbullah's responsibility. I doubt looking for responsibility-bearers is anything benefitial right now, though. I asked you a question about what ELSE can be a solution.. until you answer it, I would have to tell you that I believe Israel is doing it's BEST under a crappy ass situation. Prove otherwise (by giving another solution) or stop saying "you can do better" without actually saying HOW. I never heard of it. Show me where. Exact quote. And the alternative is....? Show me where exactly ISRAEL said this. Don't give me someone ELSE saying israel said that. Show me a quote of Israel stating anyone - including civilians - in southern lebanon are a target. Provide your sources please. I wasn't trying to condecende, I was trying to show you what I know from my experience. We were talking about military actions, and I have experience with that. My purpose wasn't for us to bicker over who has the bestest war efforts. My purpose was to show my opinion based on my own experience. We are debating something that I was once part of. Telling me it is condecending to give my experience is quite silly. Surely, when a physicist has experience and knowlegde about a specific theory, you don't call them condecending if they tell you they try to explain what they know of it. They don't always, this is why they sent GROUND TROOPS. Those ground troops went into locations that Israel KNEW were filled of enemy forces, and that will be a great threat to the soldiers lives. They did that because they wanted to at least ATTEMPT to avoid collateral damage. ATTEMPT, in a war, is better than nothing. And it's surely better than purposefully put civilians in harms way. Stop evading our questions. You are so smart throwing out where Israel is wrong,where America is wrong, where everyone's so damn wrong. I asked you what YOU HAVE TO SUGGEST as an alternative. No one argues that this is a shitty situation. People die. People get hurt. People get killed. Lives are ruined, houses are burnt. Yes. It's war. No one likes this situation, not the lebanese and not the israelis. NO ONE. But THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS IN A WAR. There is collateral damage, and the "trick" (if you can even lower it to that meaning) is to try and avoid as much of it as possible. It is not always possible, read a bit about wars in general. The question here is what ELSE can Israel DO. WHAT ELSE. there's no doubt War is BAD. No one argues. All you do so far is repeat the notion of "war is bad". Well, yes. Thankyou. War is horrible. I know. I agree. But concidering the OTHER ALTERNATIVE -- the one where the entirety of Israel is at the mercy of bombs, terrorist attacks, busses blowing up and malls being burnt by Shahids -- this is the BEST we can DO under the circumstances. You want to keep on saying "it's bad it's bad" go right ahead, but as long as you don't suggest any other MEANINGFUL resolution (and I told you to study history for that, I'll touch your suggestions in a moment), then your claims of "war being bad" is doing nothing other than existing. You're not changing anything by claiming war is bad. We all know war is bad. We all dont want war. WHAT, then, is the other alternative. We tried doing nothing for SIX YEARS, and we tried reaching out to the lebanese people both by politics and by other means; it didn't work. Hizbullah only gained more power, more guns, more ways to attack Israeli cities. BTW, many other countries in the world tried to convince the lebanese government to get rid of the hizbullah once and for all. Should I remind you how the South-Lebanese army had to FLEE for their lives after Israel left because the Hizbullah entered the territory? Lebanon either has no official power over Hizbullah, or no desire to get rid of them. I'm not talking about the general population, I'm talking about government. It's proven, they ALLOWED this to happen, despite world's requests AND warnings. This option was TRIED, AND FAILED. Next option, please. He shouldn't. Unfortunately, Hizbullah took over that region. He can stay and be used by them (because they DO want to use him), or leave and come back after the war. Israeli Citizen in the north are having the same problem; stay or leave. Leave or stay. Well, some stay, some leave, but those who stay KNOW what they stay WITH. They know that there is a war. And in southern lebanon, the war gets into people's houses, as Hizbullah wishes. In a perfect world, he should've stayed, have his country full of commerce and wealth, and never leave and always be happy. This is not a perfect world. And war is never perfect either. Friend. Six years we had missiles on Israeli cities up north, and we sat idly by, responding only from within our borders, knowing it will not stop them. One day the Hizbullah kidnaps two soldiers, killing others, WITHIN our own borders, with no previous action by Israel. The same day, Hizbullah fires HUNDREDS of missiles on northern Israeli cities, injuring many, killing two civilians. The bombing never stopped. It took Israel almost 24 hours to FINALLY decide to get its butt in there. Israel doesn't WANT to be in Lebanon, we made that mistake once, we're not too thrilled to do it again. But we have a THIRD of our POPULATION in SHELTERS. Think about that sentence for a tiny bit. Now think of it some more. And a tid bit more. And you tell me, without games, without evading my question, and with reading through history and seeing what we already tried, what failed and what almost caused a bigger war: WHAT ARE OUR OPTIONS. Actually, you need to prove US wrong. Throughout my entire posts you can see me proving you wrong. Making mistakes? Perhaps, but what country doesn't. Between THAT and terrorism there's a huge line, friend. Watch your words carefully, back them up with FACTS and not story telling. I understand your uncle is angry, my family up north is furious aswell. But when we speak from our STOMACH we get things escalated. I tried to show you that things are not that simple. I tried to get an answer of what you think is the other solution. All you do, is throw wild claims we all agree with the core-of -- "war's bad! boo on war!" -- and use that to state Israel is doing harm. No war has ever been nice. Some wars were not from necessity. I claim this one IS. Now YOU prove me wrong. Show me another solution. Show me how my country could've AVOIDED going into Lebanon and trying to destroy those rocket launchers. ~moo

But there are more things that are similar - like Liter and Kg in water.. with that kind of logic (I would assume) that people would be saying "A Kilo of Water" since its easier than saying "A Liter of Water"... Sounds like a good enough notion though, thanks Neil. It tends to get frustrating though, to try to convince people of something that is utterly their mistake! People don't believe me! ~moo

Hi guys, Something's always bothered me, ever since I finished Physics major in highschool. According to my teacher - and the rest of the scientific community - Kilograms (and pounds) are units of MASS. To describe the units of weight in physics, we use Neuton. Therefore, a weight of something can be 10 neutons, while its mass can be 3 kilograms. Why is it then that the misconception of "Kilos means Weight" is so widespread in the world? SO widespread in fact, that no one even knows it is a mistake to call Kilograms and Pounds units "Weight"? Why is it when my mom goes to the grocery shop and buys a Kilo of tomatos, the salesman WEIGHS them. It makes no sense to me... why would such a mistake be implemented in people's minds in the beginning? Why couldn't everyone just say it right? When I asked my friend, for instance, if she would have the same scale of Kilograms on the moon than she does on earth, she told me no - that she would have a sixth of the earthly ammount. It took me almost half an hour to convince her that she would in fact have the same "Kilograms" (hence, mass wouldn't change), but only her weight will - hence, Neutons. It's so weird. There's absolutely no reason why everyone would get this so wrong... and yet they do.. Be glad to hear your thoughts on the matter ~moo

Okay, here we go: Of course not, but forgetting it - and therefore judging Israel's actions during a WAR -- which is never peaceful and loving and nice and happy -- is also something one shouldn't do. Don't you agree? It seems to me you are judging Israel by a different scale than you are the rest of the countries. Yes, and I said you are wrong, and it is quite evident from Israel's way of fighting. Let me get something straight: Israel has made mistakes, much like many other countries. Israel is far from being perfect. But claiming it is a country that purposefully murders innocent civilians -- while at the same breath claiming hizbullah is not -- is quite a far fetched statement, and quite infuriating. As someone who actually served in a military, let me tell you this: If Israel concidered the entirety of southern lebanon a target, then it wouldn't have sent ground troops into a hazardous location; it would've sent planes (It has a very good airforce, I doubt anyone would disagree), with lots and lots of bombs, plow the area, wipe it out, and then just put tanks in the area to make sure everyone's dead. It doesn't. In fact, Israel is going AGAINST it's soldier's safety in that aspect: It is sending groups of soldiers to specific villages, specific locations, to fight against militias. If you know anything about military, then you know that this is muuuuch more dangerous to the lives of the soldiers, and yet Israel does that. Why? Because it doesn't WANT to kill innocent civilians. The problem is when you have your third of the country in shelters, their lives RUINED (They are 24 hours a day in a shelter, perhaps having a "break" of a few minimal hours), their lifestyle completely shattered, the economy trashed - all because of a group of terrorists bombarding the cities. You - as the military - know you need to stop it. You want to only stop the ones who bombard you, so you go there specifically (with trained soldiers and not a flock of warplanes), you send pamphlets warning against the attack (and give out your plans), you speak to the world (and the United Nations in an attempt to find political solution), and you try to only destroy specific locations. You do aaaaaaalll that.... and your enemy brings civilians into your attacking buildings ON PURPOSE. They hide amongst families and kids KNOWING that you are going to try and stop them. They are CAUSING YOU to kill their own civilians. Tell me, my friend, and I don't mean to patronize, I mean to SERIOUSLY ask, because this is something that I've been pondering myself, for a lonnnnnng long time, with no answer: WHAT should Israel do? What? Just offer an alternative. A working one. PLEASE. I beg you. A third of Israel's population BEGS you. The lebanese children that are used as human shield cry for your help. PLEASE. Tell me. Give me a solution for a better way to end this. But before you do, look up some history. Don't go too far. Go only 50 years into the Arabic history and the Muslim/Jewish fights. See what Israel has tried to do in the past (give out land, get out of potentially harmful places in the name of giving out to peace, agreeing to speak to known terrorists who murdered thousands in the name of anti-israel fundamentalist islam just to get a hope of peace) -- all failed. Some even escalated the situation. So after your research, please. PLEASE. And I am serious: Please give us another solution. What SHOULD we do to stop our people from being killed -- innocent civilians -- in their own homes, in the busses, in schools, in malls -- WHAT SHOULD WE DO. PLEASE. Come up with a good solution that will actually work, and I will bow and kiss your feet. I would suggest, however, that you don't ask Israel to just dissapear. That is one thing that will not happen. Now, about your uncle: Well. I am very sorry to hear about your uncle's misfortune. I am serious. I am truely sorry. I can sadly also give you stories that belong to the other side. That is what happens in war. Is that a good thing? OF COURSE NOT. But it happens to both sides, and with all due respect, if your uncle disliked the hizbullah's presence in southern lebanon, knowing hizbullah shot missiles on israeli territory DAILY for the past six years and did NOTHING to stop this, then he should've gotten AWAY from the attacked territories the second it happened. He should've been the first to support Hizbullah's disarmament, since it would've braught to his OWN better future. I am not the only Israeli to be sencerely sorry for the loss of lives in BOTH sides. Both the Lebanese and the Israeli. But I repeat my question to you -- and do try not to avoid it this time, seeing how you avoid answering to all others who asked you this throughout the thread -- WHAT is the solution? Israel's shutting up and letting third of its population to stay hostage? Israel didn't start this battle, Hizbullah did. For the past six years it's been targetting CIVILIAN CITIES in nothern israel. Not "targetting military outposts--oops, we hit a civilian city". Nooo. Targetting SPECIFIC CIVILIAN CITIES. Huge difference there, don't you agree? Israel got into this battle after the soldiers were kidnapped and at the SAME DAY hizbullah started firing huge amounts of rockets into the cities in the north. What. What do you want Israel to do? Please answer me. Oh, and you hinted pretty strongly that Israel is a terrorist state. Right here: Here. You did. ~moo

You know, I've been watching you oversimplify a situation you don't quite understand for the duration of this thread, but this is certainly the record. A Terrorist State? How did you reach that? Israel is far from being perfect, but the battle to remain ethical in the face of a no-choice war is continuus. May I remind you, that when America invaded Afghanistan -- a land far far away from it, with no emmediate threat to the civilians of the American state -- they wiped out complete villages with artillery? Boom, no village. Israel tries to wipe out buildings. So, yes, war is sad, isn't it? It's not perfect, and it has collateral damage, and both sides have failures and successes. But a terrorist state? May I remind you - again - that in six years, Israel sat idly by while "occasional" (almost daily.. hardly 'occasional') bombardments were fired on Israeli cities in the north? Those cities are not in any "occupied territory", and they have done nothing bad to anyone. They are CIVILIAN cities, not military settlements. Terrorist state.. ? You are talking about a country that PONDERED whether to commence a battle with a group of terrorists that held the entire north section hostage with missiles. PONDERED IT. Thought about it for a WHILE (and Israeli citizens now criticise the fact it actually took too long to try and stop the missiles) before going to a battle to stop the missiles against its cities. Would you expect America to sit idly by - or even spend a second 'thinking about it' - if New York was attacked by a SINGLE MISSILE from terrorists in Canada, and Canada doing nothing to stop those terrorists, calling them "Freedom Fighters"?? I doubt it. America started a war far from its land -- two of those -- over much less emmediate threats than what Iseael is fighting at the moment. Terrorist state.. You're going a bit far there, aren't you? Ignoring some quite RECENT history, arent you? ~moo

How about using a software without letting it take my info online? Another thing: This is a very widespread software, many people use it. Wouldn't we have many people complaining (and massively, this IS moneyrelated) if it wasn't safe? Oh, and thanks about my english, but I do tend to miss words, spell wrong or have troubles articulating myself sometimes. Now you know why you guys should learn hebrew, really, it would make my life so much easier.. ~moo

I only half agree with you (I tend to do that a lot don't I? ) == here's why: 1. Islamic Terrorists existed long before anyone "meddled" with middle-eastern states' affairs. 2. That is not what they are FLAT OUT SAYING in their own media. 3. They also attack states that are seemingly FOR them (like Spain and Egypt). For instance; The islamic fundamentalists are AGAINST (virtually HATE) egypt, since they view it as "folding" to western civilization, and giving up their values. Look up historic remarks from terrorists (Bin Laden might be the current threat, but he wasn't always that.. many others used to threaten our existance, some of which were Hammas, Islamic Jihad, Hizbullah and so on). Again - Claiming this is the ONLY reason is oversimplifying things, and as I keep repeating, the matters are not as "black and white" as many of the governments (specifically, as it seems, american leadership) wants us to believe. It's very deep into the GRAY area, taking many issues that fundamentalist muslims take advantage of to promote their fighting. Let me ask you, though, a different approach of a question: Let's assume that America will withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan, and Israel will give back the "occupied" territories (go back to the 1967 borders, giving up Golan Heights, Half of Jerusalem, Gaza strip and the West Bank) -- Do you REALLY think the terrorism will stop? I can tell you out of sad experience that it most likely won't. In 2000 (when I joined the military, actually, days before my bootcamp), the Second Intifada started violently with the abduction of three soldiers in the lebaneze border, and palestinian riots in Gaza and the West bank. A few days before that (I will try to bring sources, I don't have much time to look it up.. I promise I will though, and you can also look it up yourselves so that you see I'm not biased in this ) Prime Minister Barak made an offer to the Palestinians: In that peace offer, a very major issue was addressed. He offered them to take half of jerusalem. The palestinian leader - Yasser Araffat - not only refused that offer (Which, basically, is his GOAL, remember? Half of Jerusalem including west bank, and Gaza he already had at that time with almost full control, part of steps to give it completely without sacrificing israeli safety) - he also declared INTIFADA on Israel. We can debate why he did that, but it is besides the point at the moment. He did. The point is that while it is true the fight of muslims is about western civilization "meddling" in their affairs, the bigger point is that no matter WHAT western civilization does right now, it will be concidered meddling. In their view (and again: It's THEIR words), the fact we promote naked women (bathing suits, tv shows, etc etc), and the "western way" is taking over the world, is complete and utter blasphemy. It is something they vowed to fight against. So yes, it's true, the fight is more than "Our freedom vs. Their oppression". But it IS a lot about the western civilization. Sadly, I doubt there is an action we as "western world" can do (or stop doing) to make the muslim fundamentalists say "Oh, great, NOW you stopped meddling, and we can sit down like human beings and TALK". Sadly, I don't see that happening. ~moo

Oh, btw (hey, let me brag a bit, I'm happy 'bout this!) - I got into college. Electrical Engineering. Aced my Math test (do NOT ask me how, americans use the weirdest scales ever, it took me 10 minutes to figure out that you need to multiply feet by 12 to get inches.. aaaaa) and Aced the English as a Second Language test. Again, this one elluded me aswell, but appearantly my english is not that bad Well, I just had to share my happiness with you guys, seeing how I wrote you that I have a new student-status.. heehee.. Expect many questions regarding Electricity, Physics and all that new issues I am going to study on the next four years. FINALLY - I'm going to know what I'm talking about! ~moo

Hi guys I decided to put a better hold of my financial situation (not that it's a bad situation, it's just going to get different with my new student-status . I started surfing online in search for a simple program that can help me out in calculating incomes and outcomes and all that stuff, since I am clueless and quite an astronaut, and getting a hold of my money in real time should be very helpful. There are some very nice looking softwares out there, the nicest one I could find (with my budget limit.. I dont really want to pay too much on a helpful program) is Quicken. It seems quite good, and is cheap (22$ for the basic one). My question to you fellow geek geniouses is this: Are these programs SAFE to use? Do you know anything about this? If I end up buying it, I would love to use the online features, if they are safe enough..... With all the "Uncle Sam is looking at you" stuff that's been going on lately, and the new internet regulation and microsoft softwares that end up spying after you instead of helping you get rid of spam, I'm quite tentative in using these.. but it CAN be very helpful. Any advice? Anyone knows or uses any of these softwares? Thanks ~moo

I actually thought about the same thing, but not with earth-communication (Geosynchroneous satellites do the job quite well with communications) but to put a radio telescope on the far end of the moon (the "dark side" of the moon), so that we can view the solar system and the universe with virtually no distraction from atmosphere. Surely scientists thought about it, though.. no? ~moo

This definately isn't the only reason, but it is a major one. And they do hate our freedom, and our societies. That's one of their main points. When bin laden tried to show us that he doesnt hate "our freedom", and said "we don't attack sweden", he is only speaking half the truth for a few major reasons: 1. The fight, for public relation reasons (which they take advantage of all the time and quite brutally), has to have a reason for the world; that way, if they claim their reason is 'occupied territories', the world is sympathetic. If you check history, you will see that it has nothing to do with that. Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt before the peace agreement with Israel, wanted to wipe Israel off the map. If you listen to the brainwashed people, you will see that they talk about the entirety of infidels - governed by israel and america. Moreover, it was - througout history - the arab nations who initiated an attack on Israel. In 1948, there WERE NO occupied territories. In fact, jewish settlements were 'given' to Arabs, so if you go with that, it should've been the jews who yell about occupation. The jews however were happy with their new land. It was the arab nations - all four of them - that initiated a full scale attack the day after the declaration of independance. 2. Fundamentalist Muslims are against capitalism and the 'free way of thinking'. Their belief - and they state it themselves - claim that the western world is cheap, lacking values and wants to take over the world with its capitalistic propaganda. They use the fact that McDonalds and Coka Cola are visible in the middle east aswell, as a sign of "western takeover". It is words they say themselves. 3. The word mister Bin Laden neglected to add (and a word we tended to forget adding ourselves, in the back of our minds), is YET. They don't fight sweden - YET. they have "bigger fish to fry". They did attack Spain, didn't they? They did attack England, who had nothing to do with 'occupied territories'. Right now, America is the "BIGGEST Threat" to fundamentalist islam. That's why they chose it FOR NOW. When they're "done" with them, they'll go after the rest of the non muslim states. They say it themselves. They do hate our freedom. It represents everything they claim to be against. Those societies (Iran, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia..) kill and mame their women if daring to "shame" their families by either walking with no face-hood, or thinking about a shorter blouse, or speaking online to people (not necessarily men, by the way..). You are surprised they are so against the western way, that promotes bathing suits, freedom of thought (god forbit a person becoming an atheist in muslims countries, he might aswell just kill himself instead, and save the trouble), freedom of speech (show me a country that has that? Even Jordan - the most 'western' of them all, has very very limited one), the quest to get women into equal positions as men (you already know what they think about THAT ONE), and so on. The western civilization is "everywhere", specifically since the invention and penetration of the internet and world satellite TV. The young generation in Iran, for instance, started to get quite influenced, and a few years ago almost performed a student revolution. The leaders of that attempted revolution (which only intended to affect social matters, not the type of government, or throw out the existing leaders) are either rotting in Irani prison (extremely not nice) or dead. The muslim fundamentalists are TERRIFIED from the influences of the western world on their closed-minded brain-washed fundamentalist nation. They are EXTREMELY against our freedom. They just use the other subjects as a means to emphesize their determination, and get world sympathy. ~moo

Can we be sure it only happens with WinXP? Is there a way to prevent it from happenning? This is quite frustrating. In order to defend my computer, I need to use outside programs (like firewalls) that I can't be sure completely I can trust... How.. utterly frustrating, and quite alarming. ~moo

They represent the western world. Another way of thinking so radically different. Notice that there are no true democracies in the muslim states. Why is that? Notice that there is no true freedom of speech or thought or religion in muslim states. Why do you think that happens? I don't hate arabs, and I don't hate muslims, I've lived with them in peace all my life. Usually, the regular average person wants (well, the educated ones at least) peace and quiet. Their governments and Religious Leaders, however, go by the claims that all those who are against fundametalist-thinking-islam are infidels. Their way of THINKING is different than mine in more than their religion. Their social activities and social ethics are completely different. When they need to think about the "representation of evil" - when evil, by their religious leaders, is infidelic 'freedom' - their first thought goes to those who REPRESENT that: U.S.A as the biggest Western World Capitalist country (or so they see it), and Israel, the tiny democratic land of the Jews, the only country close enough to western democracy in that region. ~moo