mooeypoo

Just to see how to think about this 'problem', acoe, are you doing this as a joke-exercise (in which case, NICE! you came close) or is this supposed to show some post-hoc correlation with numerology (in which case, fail... answer the previous points we made, and give an appropriate and fully accurate number).

I didn't say it's wrong, but you can't expect to convince anyone else without some evidence. Specially not in a SCIENCE forum. You will likely have much more odds of convincing if you go to a conspiracy theory forum. Yes... with evidence and replication seeing as we know how to do it with ancient tools, we have historical evidence of where the stones came from and the people building it, and we can do it again. There's nothing mythical about it. Who, and where? African religions-folk that were mingled with the jews that were thrown out of the land of Israel in the babylonian diaspora? Because that's probably where the Ethiopian jews come from, and likely where the jewish influence on the region came from, too. Unless you have actual EVIDENCE to show on the contrary. Yeah, I skipped the entire part above since it was empty claims with no evidence to either one of them. You're obviously "allowed" to believe whatever you want, but since you're the one who posed the idea to the rest of us, we simply tell you that you can't expect anyone to take your word for it without proper evidence. ~moo

The question needs to be reversed. The people making the claim need to bring forth evidence, not the other way around. That is, whoever believes this conspiracy has the responsibility of bringing up the evidence that it has merit, and not the people who think it's rubbish need to bring evidence that it's not.

The Jews and Arabs lived in the land of Israel for thousands of years. If you want to go even further back, the area was formerly occupied by tribes that do not exist anymore, was conquered by the Israelites, they settled and developed the land, and many of them (not all) were kicked out forcefully in the Babylonians (Iraq of today) empire took hold of the place. Since then, the place switched hands and while there was always some settlement of jews there, the control of the area changed from the Turks and Ottomans and British, etc. In 1948 the UN *VOTED* on the creation of a Jewish state next to an arab one. A division of the land of Israel into two states. While the Jews went to the streets to celebrate, the arab countries attacked. The war of 1948 started by the arab nations, Peron. Not by Israelis. When you discuss history, you should learn it first. Now, all the arguments about going back to certain borders - 1948 vs 1967 vs 1973, etc - all those exist as a result of multiple wars that happened from multiple fronts. The arab countries attacked Israel in *EACH* and every one of those wars, meaning to annihilate the state. Israel defended itself successfully in each one. Because there were so many attempts to annihilate the state of Israel, the fear of giving back land is a SECURITY one. We can argue if it still holds. We can argue if there should be 1948 lines or whether it should be 1967 lines, but to argue that Israel has no right to exist is not knowing what the history is. The general consensus in this thread seems to be to take the UN's word as generally unbiased - or, at least, generally valid. The argument that the UN found Israel at fault was raised quite a lot. So, it seems, that we take the decisions by the UN as valid. One of those decisions was to create the State of Israel. To claim it has no right to exist is not knowing history, and claiming that on one hand the UN's claims of maltreatment of the palestinians are valid but the creation of Israel is not (BOTH done by the UN), is having a double standard. ~moo

That's true, and in that aspect I'm in total agreement with the report, btw. However, my problem is that it didn't relate to the problem of what happens to both peoples *without* the blockade (hence, allowing Hamas to grow as a terrorist organization, terrorize both palestinians and Israelis). So I understand the "that's a bad option!" conclusion. I do. But if the alternative is worse, then it's irrelevant, and without a proper alternative, doing nothing *is* worse. The UN has a tendency to be very critical of Israel's side -- which is okay, it should be, Israel should change a whole lot of things when it comes to treating the Palestinian people -- but it conviniently tends to ignore the problems on the Palestinian side. Hamas is the governing power, and the fact is that Hamas is treating its own people *VERY* badly. They prevent and sabotage the distribution of food, they use civilian institutions as their terrorist/military bases (that is against international conventiosn too, you know). And yet, you barely hear the UN say anything about them. My problem isn't what the UN says about Israel. My problem is that it says almost nothing about the Palestinian side, and that doesn't seem to be a very unbiased way to go. ~moo

There's also a bit of a problem with Goldstone report. Frankly, I believe the Israeli government was acting insanely stupidly when it declared that it will not cooperate with the investigation (The distrust between Israel and the UN is not entirely unjustified, but still). But that noncooperation also meant that the Goldstone committee didn't quite get to see both sides, at least that's the complaint Israel has against it. Of course, the *reason* it didn't get to see both side *is* the Israeli government, but seeing as the UN soldiers were involved in some anti-Israel actions in the past, and Israel has a very deep distrust of UN judgment... <sigh> as you can see.. things are.. complicated. :\ It's an annoying circle. Just a bit of background, the major reason of distrust of the UN by Israelis and Israel government has to do with these events: http://judaism.about.com/library/1_terrorism/bl_hardov_un.htm But there were other events. In general, though, the UN acts more or less as a democracy of the countries that are represented. Israel is tiny. The arab world is huge. I'm not saying the UN holds no merit - by far I am not saying that - but we should REMEMBER that we're not talking about a totally impartial body. It has legal bodies under it, but it's still a democratic procedure, and the question of its impartial nature is a big one. Very big one. ~moo

Which is still a totally different argument than what you initially posted, and is still a red herring to the CURRENT discussion. The situation isn't as clear cut black-and-white as you seem to make it. I think you should read a bit more what people posted here in the thread; Israel has quite a lot of fault, but the Palestinians - specially Hamas - are far from being innocent lambs. There are terror attacks that kill innocent women and children on the Israeli side too - but other than making an emotional appeal, posting a video showing an incapacitated 5 year old child will prove no point. It's out of context, it's ignoring the background and the other side. I am *all for* finding a solution to the situation. We won't be able to find a solution if we analyze the situation without details, in flat generalized definitions and out of context pieces. Let's have a discussion, not a shock frenzy. The latter doesn't really help, and can go on forever on both sides. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged I am not sure, but I believe there's a difference in how the bullet picks up speed and you need a longer barrel. Either something with weight of the bullet or something with the way it's built.. Not sure, though, I can try and check if you want.

Yes, that's fine, Peron, but there's a difference between the arguments above and claiming that "We all know" the Israeli military oppresses the west bank palestinians right after a video that is out of context (do you even know where it was taken? Did you notice the soldier had a *red* clip? do you know this means he had no live ammo, but rather crowd-dispersal means - either rubber or paintballs? did you notice there was a riot? do you that this is not "inside the strip" but rather at the border?). I'm far from defending all of Israel's actions, but let's at least try to keep things properly argued. The arguments you're bringing in have nothing to do with the debate of this thread. They are a total red herring. At the very least, though, bring them in proper context.

"We all know"? The Israeli Army is out of the west bank, Peron. Israel has left Hebron almost 10 years ago, and Ramallah is self-governed. The problem at the moment is about how to control and sort out the borders and the autonomous identity of the Palestinian Authority. There's a barrier being built to *separate* Israel from the Palestinian Authority - this barrier is under a lot of scrutiny because of the way it's built and the places it goes through, but the fact is, Israel army is no longer inside the west bank. Control was given to the Palestinian Authority in their territories. The remaining arguments (and there are a lot of those, of course) are about issues of territories and control and the details of, hopefully, sustainable peace. There are no Israeli soldiers occupying the west bank. We've ran this thread well in the past many many pages because most of us care for facts rather than ground-breaking emotional statements. We don't all know. We check. Yes, because when dealing with reality, there's nothing better than to refer to a fantastical work of science fiction. If you've read any of my posts in this thread you can see that I have absolutely no problems criticizing Israel and its actions, but I would like to do that realistically, looking at *both* sides of the issue. And finally, Peron, the red herring about Israel's supposed occupation of the west bank has nothing to do with the subject of this debate, which is the "aid flotilla" attempting to break a blockade. ~moo Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedThere are no check points INSIDE THE WEST BANK. Israel doesn't deal with the internal dealings of the west bank as long as they are not passing the border into Israel. The fact that there is an argument about where the line/border should go doesn't mean that Israeli soldiers are occupying the poor palestinians in their homes. That's simply false. The palestinians have THEIR OWN security foces in the west bank: Palestinian Security Forces Reflect Promise of Future State - http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Palestinian-Security-Forces-Reflect-Promise-of-Future-State-91698699.html U.S. giving Palestinian security forces top-level training - http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/u-s-giving-palestinian-security-forces-top-level-training-1.273762

Sadly, they do do that (example from 2009: and example from 2007: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2275121/hamas_shoot_mortars_from_gaza_school/) But, honestly, in this instance I don't think this reason is strong enough to *prevent* schools from being built. Israel (and the rest of the world, frankly) should fight against Hamas' abuse of civilian places, but something should also be done about the situation in Gaza. One of the causes of this mutual distrust between paestinians and israelis is the education, and I really would like to see the education system in Gaza improved. Again, I look at the west bank for reference - their education system is a hundredfold better than in Gaza, an in some instances comparable to many of the western countries - and there's (a) much more cooperation on both sides, (b) much better economy in the palestinian authority's areas and © much more desire for talks and peace. In this instance, I think that building a school surpasses the worry of Hamas abusing it. Hamas will abuse all civilian places, including people's houses; that doesn't mean people shouldn't have houses, it just means we should work harder to pressure Hamas to stop doing that. I do agree with that part. I wish I knew how we can change those elements, though. I'm not sure. Last time they did use the schools as their rocket grounds, but the schools were MOSTLY evacuated (Israeli army took the time to throw pamphlets from helicopters warning the civilians that an attack is coming, giving them time to evacuate schools and big civilian gathering places and stay home). I would like to see schools in Gaza. I am more concerned about who will teach in those schools (Hamas' lead teachers will only make things worse, I'm sure we can agree on that). But quite honestly, we have to start SOMEWHERE. I am all for security, and sometimes security (for both sides), sadly, comes on the expense of many things (on both sides), but I think that it shouldn't come on any expense. I wish the UN had better representation and much more presence in Gaza to oversee that those schools and civilian locations are being built and used for actual civilian needs rather than terrorist agenda. That might solve a lot of the problems in Gaza. ~moo Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedThis is an interesting article from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR): Palestinian Public Opinion Poll No (36) In the aftermath of the Free Gaza flotilla incident, Turkey is the most popular regional country, but Hamas’s popularity remains unchanged while Salam Fayyad and his government gain greater public support These are the results of the latest poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR) in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip between 10 and 13 June 2010. The poll was conducted few days after the Israeli raid on the Free Gaza flotilla. It is worth noting also that the PA government of Salam Fayyad announced the cancellation of the local elections during the conduct of the poll. Total size of the sample is 1270 adults interviewed face to face in 127 randomly selected locations. Margin of error is 3%. This press release covers domestic Palestinian issues; issues related to the peace process and Israeli-Palestinian relations will be covered in a separate joint Palestinian-Israeli press release and later in our detailed report on the poll. For further details, contact PSR director, Dr. Khalil Shikaki, or Walid Ladadweh at tel 02-296 4933 or email pcpsr@pcpsr.org. http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2010/p36epressrelease.html I didn't read the entire document yet, I read most of it, but it's very interesting to see some of the reactions on the Palestinian side to the flotilla incident and to the entire situation. I keep reading about mixed reactions on the Israeli side (people, not government) but if you want, I can try and find if there was a proper poll conducted on the Israeli side as well, so maybe we can get a bit of a clearer picture on how both peoples reacted to it. Anyways, this is an interesting read.

Are you going to answer the questions and critiques people put forth, or are you just here to post more and more numerical images? We're a discussion forum, and we asked you a bunch of questions.. I think you should relate to them before you give us more numbers that might make no sense if the basics are irrelevant.

This can actually be best for the marshes and large areas of wetlands instead of the full blown leak in the ocean. It might not be good enough to collect millions of gallons in an open water, but it seems like it can collect - or at least stop - oil in marshes and wetlands and prevent more damage to plants and fish there.

http://www.zazzle.com/supervillain_tshirt-235212975545072014

It's great that after real science discovered a value of a constant (using real math and real physics) you come and play with it visually. But if your theory holds any merit, you should be able to actually derive new constants (and show the *DERIVATION* if the current one) with it without using guesswork. "Pretty numbers" work post-hoc, they don't work towards actually discovering something new, as you clearly showed with your error and "correction".

If you're posting in a thread about a certain subject, you should care about context. This video is in Hebrew, it's from 2009, and it shows weaponry from a ship that wanted to get into Gaza. It's not Hollywood. It's the real deal, those are containers from a ship headed into Gaza. They're not really saying anything in the video, just background noises. This *IS NOT* part of the flotilla. It can show why Israel is worried about letting ships get into the strip without proper check, but it's not showing what the flotilla was carrying. ~moo

Bill Gates might be very smart and powerful, but he's not said to be God. For that matter, the difference between Windows and The Bible is that the bible is said to be inspired by God, and hence, you would expect, would not be subjected to the same minial human expectation that Windows is under. And, in any case, I think that next time you make this analogy, use "Mac OS" or some type of Linux, you might get people to actually agree with the comparison to perfection, much more so than with Windows No but they SHOULD contact the programmer and ask for a refund or fixes. And the programmers *do* release security fixes (specially windows). And when they don't (and there are a few examples of programs that were abandoned by their programmers) the programs are abandoned by the followers as well, and a better, more adapted, more supported program is replacing the old one. So either this is a REALLY bad analogy, or the analogy leads towards switching religion ~moo

BTW, guys, I don't mind taking the ideas and making images and then the shirts, but if any of you feel creative, have a few moments, and want to create an image (big, for printing, 150+ dpi and at least 1000x1000 pixels), you can post it here and I'll take it and add it to the collection. ~moo

http://www.zazzle.com/science_tshirt-235203410238449533

This shows the intention what the Mavi Marmara itself (the ONLY ship to be violent): The only ship that was violent was not carrying any aid. Of the seven ships which announced their intentions to break Israel’s legal maritime blockade of Hamas-controlled Gaza, six were redirected without incident. The one vessel, Turkish-operated Mavi Marmara, was the only ship in the flotilla which ambushed Israeli soldiers. Over the past 10 days, it has been obvious that the dozens of “peace activists” came ready and eager for a violent skirmish and were thus anything but peace loving individuals. After contents of the ship were unloaded, it has been discovered that the Mavi Marmara did not contain a single ounce of aid. Not one box of food or medicine for the people of Gaza. Out of 7 ships, only 4 were actually bringing goods with them. As the largest boat in the Flotilla, the Mavi Marmara was loaded with thugs sent by the terrorist-affiliated Turkish organization IHH. While most on board the Mavi Marmara were not violent, those who did not want to fight the Israelis were sent to the lower levels of the ship, leaving the area where Israeli soldiers landed composed entirely of fighters. The aid from the 4 freighters carrying goods has been inspected for contraband and was brought to the Kerem Shalom border crossing with Gaza. Source: http://www.israelpolitik.org/2010/06/10/no-aid-found-on-turkish-vessel-mavi-marmara/ There was *no* humanitarian aid on the Mavi Marmara. Out of the 7 ships, this ship - the only one to be violent - was the only one to carry no aid. "Peaceful aid workers" with no aid, and no peaceful intentions. ~moo Merged post follows: Consecutive posts mergedbtw, Capn, this might answer your chips question: In response to Israel allowing the sending of nonessential aid including chips and candy, Hamas declared they would not allow the Palestinians they “govern” access to snacks. “We have three factories that make carbonated drinks. They say they want to allow in potato chips, but we have factories that produce more than enough to meet Gaza’s needs,” said Ziyad al-Zaza, economic and trade minister in Hamas’s Gaza-based government. While they refer to the aid coming in as “the first course,” what they are waiting for is “the main course,” meaning cement and iron. According to Robert Gates, America’s Secretary for Defense, “Construction materials haven’t gone for housing, they’ve gone for bunkers.” Same source.

Mystery solved.

Right, it does it occasionally, and no one knows why. Thing is - this is man made. That means that the "why" can be from a nuclear test (which I personally find unlikely) and to a really funny practical joke. Unless some more information is to be released, I'm not too sure there's any real story here. Someone is broadcasting on that frequency. Broadcasting is easier than you'd think. Anyone can do it, specially in those frequencies, if you have the right equipment (which is TOTALLY affordable to people). What do you think it is? ~moo

A friend of mine sent me this video with what appears to be a *REALLY* simple way of getting oil out of the water. I am not sure how well this will work with underwater plumes or some of the more complicated problems with this oil leak, but for the floating stuff - and maybe for the marshes and the oil that goes into the wetlands - it can be a viable solution? Looks like it could work, and hell, if it does, it's probably the simplest solution ever. http://www.wimp.com/solutionoil/ What do you guys think?

Clipper, I don't understand what the problem is. This is a recognized man-made phenomenon. It stops and starts and stops. It's known. It broadcasts beeps. And sometimes a voice is heard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UVB-76 What.. exactly.. is the question? ~moo

*link*.

Can you supply the links of where you saw it, where you saw the predictions, who predicted..... ? It will help us understand what you've heard and what it is you're talking about.