DrmDoc

I see…it isn’t omitted citations you want, but rather a discussion of my analogy. For those who have actually perused rather than glanced over my numerous comments on the subject of mind, consciousness, and brain function, they may recall that I routinely refer to the confluence of brain function as a “concert”. I’ve adhered to music adjacent analogies and themes here and in many of my prior discourse on this topic because I believe they most clearly convey my thoughts, in a relatable way, on the harmony of brain function that must occur to produce attributes of mind and consciousness. I understand your perception but from the outset of this discussion thread, I wrote: Allow me to correct your perception of implied metaphysics, which was not an implication I intented. Significant portions of my discussion thus far have encompassed the affect of sensory experience. Using your analogy, the player of that clarinet would be that experience. Succinctly, our brain’s neural experience or perception of afferent stimuli via its sensory connection to that stimuli shapes and influences its responses. I’m certain of little disagreement among science circles that thought is indeed a response of brain function. My perspective is that thought (music) emerges from brain function (clarinet) as an effect of its sensory connection to sensory experience (player). Your imagination notwithstanding, I wrote in prior comments that the entirety of brain function is devoted to h-o-m-e-o-s-t-a-s-i-s. (Hope I got the spelling right this time🤞) The comment you referenced is a synopsis of my prior comments in this discussion thread on the relevance of homeostasis as the basis for all brain activity and responses. Again, from the outset of this discussion thread, I said I would attempt to make my thoughts and "keep this discussion accessible to all knowledge levels." You might agree that those interested in this topic may not all be neuroscientists, which is why I’ve inserted definitions among my various posts on my use of terms as my discussion progressed. Indeed, some neuroscientists may object to my “nomenclature” but my comments were not entirely meant for their consumption. I want to encourage the interest and contribution of non-neuroscientists in the discussion of this topic as I believe it will only enhance my personal insight and enrich my understanding as it has done so often in past discussions. I appreciate your critique and welcome your continued interest.

Thank you for the corrections of my misspelling and, so I may provide, for which aspect, statement, or portion of my comments thus far are you requesting supporting citations? If I may add, my comments were meant to provide a mental image of the processes of brain function in a way that would be understood by those disinterested in the minutia. If the minutia is your interest, then let's explore the ingredients of my salad which you appear to find unpalatable.

Hello All, In my last post I asked, rhetorically, " what is thought and what happens in the brain to produce thought?" I believe the answer I gave wasn't as clear as it could have been. Considering the whole of my comments thus far, thought is a resonant neural effect that emerges from upper brain regions--beyond the thalamus--in response to the affect of sensory experiences. If we think of the brain as a musical instrument, thought would be the sound that instrument produces. When we follow that example to one logical conclusion, thought isn't spontaneous--the musical instrument that is brain structure must be played to produce the resonance of consciousness we call thought. We are not born truly thoughtful beings, which means that we do not emerge from the womb with a fully developed structural instrument capable of producing the dolce or torrid music that is thought. Thought isn't so much about structural brain development as it is about fine tuning that instrument to produce the harmonious responses essential to the aesthetics of our survival. Relative to brain structure and function, fine tuning is about building those resonance neural pathways that can produce frequencies essential to hemostasis—essential to sustaining our brain’s metabolic balance against the destabilizing affect of all sensory experience. I welcome your thoughts.

Good morning All, Before I proceed further, I thought I'd provide a bit of clarity on my use of certain terms relative to brain function: Neural resonance/reverberance - I use this term to describe my perception of a continuously repetitive chain of afferent and efferent neuron firings. Reflexive behaviors - the physical expressions and behaviors our thalamic neural activations appear to execute in direct response to afferent stimuli. Reflective behaviors-the physical expressions and behaviors our thalamic neural activations appear to execute in direct response to efferent stimuli. In my previous posts, I shared my perception of the behaviors our thalamus activations appear to execute in response to the metabolically impactful nature of sensory experiences. Our experiences alter the metabolic balance of our brain function via the resonant affect those experiences have on our thalamus. That affect doesn't dissipate without counter measures or resonance from the thalamus and from surrounding brain structures via their reciprocal neural connections to the thalamus. The counter resonance our thalamus activity engages manifest first as reflexive behaviors, which are then followed by or in conjunction with reflective behaviors. When the resonant effects our experiences cause persist beyond our thalamus' reflexive responses to quell those experiences, the neural reverberance they cause afferently radiates into surrounding brain structure from the thalamus. Those brain structures, whose functions are affected by the frequency of that neural reverberance, begin to match or reflect that frequency in neural feedback to the thalamus. That reflective resonance has a cancelling or deadening affect on the neural resonance emanating from the thalamus. When the reflective neural resonances from other brain structures reaches the thalamus, their impact alters the resonance responses of the thalamus to that which diminishes, suppresses, or disperses the impact of our sensory experience on its functions. Those reflective behaviors our thalamus executes in response to reflective resonance from other brain regions are those that most readily suggest the thought processes indicative of organisms that appear to possess a mind. I felt compelled to discuss my thoughts on this topic here for basically the very reason suggested by the things I’ve discussed, which is the nature of consciousness relative to brain function. This topic is important to me and should be for you because it offers a compelling view of what may be happening in the brain by the behaviors we observe. We generally know the function of various brain structures and aspects of our central nervous system. We know that those functions and aspects work in concert to manifest our behaviors, identity, and consciousness. What some of us don’t know or clearly understand is the operational aspect, which is specifically how that concert of brain function is conducted. Metaphorically, we know the various music, strings, horns, and percussions of brain structure and function, but what isn’t clear to all of us is specifically how all of that is orchestrated to produce the extraordinary expressions and behaviors of human consciousness. Consider, if you will, we know the various stages of brain development and we know how experience and learning alter brain structure, but what is thought and what happens in the brain to produce thought? For example, consider the autistic brain. In an exchange with an autistic individual at this science discussion website, I was informed of the overwhelming nature of their sensory experience. The experience was described to me as having a gatekeeper who lets everybody in. Yet, that person wrote with such eloquence and focus that I wondered how that was possible? Now with a clearer perspective of the orchestration or functional exchanges between the various structures of the autistic brain, I have visual picture and a clearer understanding of how their eloquence was possible and where the variance between my brain structure/function and theirs may resided. I welcome your thought.

Hello All, In my initial post, I described our brain as an organic machine whose primary functional imperative is to maintain its metabolic balance (homeostasis) against the destabilizing affect of stimuli. The whole of our brain function--its responses and activity--is to nullify or suppress the destabilizing neural affect of our sensory experiences. The core of brain structure and, therefore, the core of brain function is the thalamus, which isn't necessarily because of its literal position within our overall brain structure. Our thalamus earns its functional prominence, as some of you may already know, from it being the primary structure that all neural pathways initially transit before entering and exiting the upper regions of our central nervous system and brain structure. As the first stop for all neural input and output, thalamic function is the first line of our brain's neural defense and action against the resonant (destabilizing) neural affect of sensory stimuli. Those observable behaviors suggestive of consciousness that we engage are the physical expression of our Thalamus neural defense and action against the destabilizing affect our sensory experiences cause. Our thalamus engages two distinct types of behavioral responses to our experiences, reflexive and reflective. The initial response of our thalamus to stimuli is invariably reflexive behavior. Reflexive behaviors primarily involve our instinctive reactions, which are shown by our physical responses to sudden sounds and tactile stimuli, such as a loud bang or a touch on the shoulder from behind. When the resonant effects of our sensory experiences persist beyond the reflexive responses of the thalamus, it then engages reflective behaviors. Reflective behaviors are those the thalamus engages in response to the neural feedback it receives from other brain regions impacted by the resonant neural effects our sensory experiences cause. If interest persist, I will explore and attempt to explain these thoughts a bit further in a subsequent post. I welcome your thoughts.

The answer to all of your questions is that they are all responses to the experiences of the individuals you've referenced. Relative to brain function, the neural activity that generates creativity, thought, and art emerge as a reflection of the resonant neural impact our experiences have on the metabolic balance of brain function. As I explained, all of ouf experiences have a resonant neural impact on our brains metabolic balance, which is our brain's imperative to maintain. In that effort, our brain generates opposing neural activity matching the frequency of that destabilizing neural resonance. I will cover this more specifically in a subsequent postings on reflexive and reflective behaviors relative to brain function. I appreciate your continued interest.

Greetings All, No, this is not necessarily a rehash of an overdone topic, but rather a focusing and sharing of recent insights I've acquired to hopefully provide some empirical clarity on the subject. As always, I will make my thoughts and attempt to keep this discussion accessible to all knowledge levels. To start, this is how I define and will use the term consciousness from this point forward in our discussion: Consciousness - the awareness suggested by an organism's observed behavioral responses to stimuli. I prefer that definition because we cannot assess organisms, which include humans, as being meaningfully aware if they do not observably respond or react to external affects or influence. You should understand that this will not be a discussion of some ethereal quality or essence, but rather a discussion of the attributes and emergence of human awareness suggested by the components of brain structure and function as current science provides. As current science provides, the primary imperative of brain function is homeostasis. The primary purpose of brain function isn't the production of thought, behavioral expression, or that meaningful awareness suggestive of consciousness. The purpose of brain function is homeostasis, which is our brain's efforts to maintain its metabolic balance. Our brain is an organic machine that's essentially fueled by a combination of oxygen and glucose. Maintaining a stabile balance of that fuel within its structure is the goal of brain function. The neural activity our brain engages consumes about 20% of our body's overall energy uptake, which is remarkable given our brain averages about 5% of body mass. Everything our brain neurally experiences impacts its metabolic balance and that impact triggers those brain responses that produce consciousness. So, what are those brain responses? Consciousness is our brain’s response to the destabilizing metabolic effects of our neural experiences. Everything we experience sensorially impacts our central nervous system and, ultimately, our brain's metabolic balance. When that occurs, our brain responses engage to restore that balance. To restore that balance, our brain must engage responses to increase its resources and neutralize or suppress that impactful neural activity causing its metabolic imbalance. Think of that impactful neural activity as a loud and continuous ringing (neural resonance) and our brain's effort to neutralize that sound with its noise-cancelling technology. Our brain responds to the resonant neural effects of stimuli with reciprocal neural feedback matching the frequency of that neural resonance. The best example of this fete is what happens in the brain when we dream. Dreaming, broadly, involves increased neural activity in the brain during sleep. That activity occurs as the brain becomes increasingly sensitive to sensory stimuli amid the sleep cycle. That stimuli engage the interpretive response systems of our brain, which matches the frequency or impact of that stimuli with its stores of sensory experience. The imagery we experience as dreams is how our dreaming brain identifies or interprets the impact of the neural resonance we experience in sleep. That interpretation is sufficient for most of us to dismiss them from memory upon arousal from sleep. Our dreams do not typically engage our physical responses because the neural resonance causing them does not emerge from concurrent physical reality. From my perspective, our brain engages in two types of responses to stimuli, which I term functional and behavioral. Functional involves those brain processes associated with stimuli perception and assessment. Behavioral responses are those expressed as the observable behaviors indicative of consciousness. So, you might ask, what are these responses relative to brain structure and function? Well, science suggests to me that all observable behavioral responses produced by our brain's functional responses emerge from the thalamus. I've recently gained a new perspective of thalamic function and how it appears to express our behavioral responses. If there is interest, I will explore this with you in my next post as it involves a discussion of reflexive and reflective behavior and the nature of mind and consciousness relative to both. Until then, I welcome your thoughts.

Today I learned about Schedule F appointment, which is an insidious method of US government control and a subversive tool for those who aspire to dictatorship. Schedule F appointments essentially allow the reclassification of potentially thousands of US government workers as political appointees who can be hired and fired at the whim of the Executive branch of US government regardless of qualifications. Potentially, under Schedule F appointment if restored, a president can fire any so designated federal employee who conscientiously refuse his directives and replace them with a sycophant willing to do and say whatever he commands regardless of consequence. I shiver at the thought of such power in the hands of a man as sociopathic and unscrupulous as Donald J. Trump--even more unnerving is that there could be a majority of America's voting population that wants him to have that power come this November elections.

I followed your link and reviewed the article regarding pathways of consciousness through the thalamus. The article regarded the insignificant effect of thalamic damage on arousal and wakefulness. Although the article freely uses the term consciousness, that term was primarily used as a description of arousal and wakefulness and not specifically as it relates to the precursor awareness associated with mind emergence. I agree that thalamic function is not the mediation or maintenance of arousal and wakefulness, but rather the coordination and integration of sensory information and memory associated with our behavioral responses. It's important to be clear on one's understanding, definition, and use of the term consciousness.

Agreed and that's precisely my position. If we agree that evidence of mind is inferred by behaviors that suggest a thought process, then those thoughtful behaviors should be the antithesis of instinctive behaviors. Indeed, evidence of mind could be suggested by other behaviors but, in view, no behavior consistently provides the clearest evidence of mind as those that are clearly contrary to reflexive, preprogrammed behaviors. Indeed, they very definition of thoughtful behaviors could be those not "bound by instinctual constraint." As I've observed in assessing the likely evolutional path of sensory acquisition in the human brain, much of its early sensory developments appear to have been devoted to various forms of tactile perception (touch, taste, sound, etc). In ancestral animals, tactile perception likely necessitated and promoted reactive, reflexive behaviors because of the very real and immediate survival impact or threat associated with physical contact. When these animal sensory perception diversified into visual sensory, they evolved a means to assess the survival impact of their environment and experiences without the level of threat to their physical well-being posed by just tactile perception alone. The enhancement visual sensory acquisition gave ancestral animals likely allowed them to better mediate their instinctive survival responses, which infers the primal emergence of mind-the emergence of behavioral expressions not bound by instinctual constraints.

I agree that having just a brain isn't sufficient to produce the quality I define as mind; however, as I have discussed, a mind is inferred in organisms by behaviors that suggest a thought process. In my view, the behaviors that most effectively suggest a thought process are those an organism engages that appear to be independent of its accessed instinctive behaviors. That distinction in brain function or similar neural functions in various speices is having a capacity to mediate its instinctive behavioral responses. We can assess when a species may have evolved such a capacity within it CNS by sensory acquistions that decrease their potential for instinctive responses. Not all structures that appear to function as a brain in some species suggest their potential to produce a mind as suggested to me by human brain structure.

Just a quick comment on this bit. This continuing question of "where is mind in the brain" is difficult to answer for some because they may not have fully considered the likely path of our brain's evolution. Theories about how our brain creates mind without some basic perspective or understanding of it's functional evolution is, IMO, no more than an uneducated guess. Included in my definition of mind I said that it is quantified by a brain's capacity to integrate dichotomous sensory data with its memory stores to produce behaviors independent of instinct. While investigating the likely evolutional path of the dreaming brain, I realized from my study that our brain retains significantly clear evidence of its path of evolution--from spinal cord to neocortex. Along that path in the human brain, three significant developments had to occur: The thalamus, sensory perception diversification, and memory. Prominent among these developments was the thalamus, which I have in previous discussion referred to as our proto-brain. but is perhaps best described as our instinctive brain. For millions of years, as our central nervous system (CNS) evolved, our instinctive brain's primary sensory intake was tactile. When you evaluate the current structure of our CNS from spinal cord to thalamus, you'll get a sense of the various stages of its evolutional history from simple sensory intake to increasingly complex forms of sensory intake. For millions of years, increasingly complex forms of tactile sensory intake evolved. This is important to note because tactile sensory detection reinforces the need for the instinctive responses that evolved through thalamic function. Diversification in our brain's sensory perception evolution came with the acquistion and increasing prominence of visual perception. Visual perception was a major diversion from tactile perception because it did not require direct physical contact with ancestral animals--with visual perception, these animals had a means to evaluate their responses without the energy expenditure tactile sensory responses likely required. From that last sentence, you should get a sense of my basis for mind in brain function. Although there's much more that I haven't shared, I said this would be quick and hope this suffices for now.

Perhaps, but with the direction of your natural/artificial selection argument we'd be debating the age old question of nature versus nurture--a debate that apparently won't be settled by or between us in any assigned forum.

Excellent point!

I am not a studier of evolutionary biology and I stated that the example I provided was indeed "rare". I also stated that it was "my view" of the example and clearly the researchers conclusions differ from mine. As I have stated in this discussion thread, I am seldom in agreement with author's conclusions provided in citations for various reasons. Wild animals selectively bred to be docile would likely be selected from among animals captured and held in an environment that promotes docile behaviors. What need is there for an animal to behave aggressively where such pressures do not exist? Again, "I" contend that the evidence suggest to me that the "experiences" of wild animals under domestication promotes a lineage of docile offspring. Conversely, the "rare" reversal or phenomenon associated with animals returned to the wild is indeed a result of selective pressures--the pressures of their experiences in the wild. Essentially, I am suggesting domestication is learned behavior past on to offspring with the effect of decreasing the need for aggressive behaviors among those animals--learning has the affect of influencing the brain architecture among the young of both humans and, apparently, other species.

I tend to abbreviate my explanations in discussions here to make them accessible to all. I understand how natural and artificial selection affects the brain of domesticated animals. However, the science for me appears to suggest that both natural and artificial selection are essentially driven by the experiences of the animal rather than the experience/perspective of their domesticator. There is no disagreement in the science that domesticated animals have smaller brains than their counterparts in the wild. In the brains of domesticated species, the parts associated with aggression and fight/flight behaviors are significantly smaller than their versions in the wild. The theory behind this difference is that the ancestry of domesticated animals were selectively bred by humans for their non-aggressive traits. This would suggest that humans were unknowingly selecting and breeding animals with naturally smaller and smaller amygdalas. I contend that this shinkage occurred as a result of the safe and relatively stable environment of the animal rather than selective breeding between decreasingly aggressive animals--these brain changes occurred because of the animals environment (experience) rather than breeding. This perspective, in my view, is support by the rare reversal of brain volumn of domesticated animals that returned to the wild. Some might suggests that such reversal is a result of natural selection, which again to me suggest the environmental adaptations in behavior that changed the brains of these animals. The question I ask is, "Does experience influence brain architecture?" The evidence suggest that it does. The next question is, "What does this infer about the savant brain's architecture as it may relate to memory retention?" It's clear the seemingly eidetic memory of certain savants involve some permanently accessible neural pathway to selectly detailed memories. If evidence suggests experiences influence brain architecture and it also suggests the potential permenancy of that architectural influence, then the potential for access to the smallest detail of every architectural influence ever expeirenced is possible. The seemingly eidetic brain function of the savant suggest to me that potential possibility regardless of what theory may have been discredited.

Through our discussion, I'm beginning to have a better understanding of memory as it may relate to the autistic savant's brain. We know that experience changes brain structure, which is supported by the differences in brain volumn we have found between domesticated animals and those that live in the wild. Animals that live in the wild, tend to have larger brain volumns because their experiences are richer and more varyed than those we've domesticated or that live in our zoos. What this suggests for the human animal is that all of our experiences are in someway imprinted in/on our brain structure. If this is true, we potentially have memory access to the smallest detail of every sensory experience we have ever encountered--which brings us back to the austistic savant's brain. The memory recall and mathematically abilities of certain celebrated savants are extraordinary. These extraordinary individuals are able to access their memories as though viewing a detail snapshot or imprint of some prior or learned experiences. The difference between our brain and those of a savant involves the permanency of their neural pathways of recall--in this way memory ins't the imprinted prior or learned experiences, but rather the permanent neural pathways of recall linked to those imprinted experiences. In pondering what I mean by permanent neural pathways of recall in the savant brain, I'm referring to some pronounced or incessant reverberant neural stimulation that those pathways must be experiencing. This appears to align with a perspective shared on this site by an austic individual who described how his overwhelming sensory experiences preclude his ability to look and listen to a person at the same time.

Memory regards our ability to recall a prior or learned experience. My take on memory storage and brain waves goes back to my analogy of the well traveled path between destinations in that the path of or to a memory must be frequently traveled or stimulated to be fully recalled. Reverberant stimulation along a set neural pathway (brain waves) stengthens that path of recall to a prior or learned experience. Memory isn't the experience itself, it's the path of conscious recall within the brain to that experience. Assessing whether mind is suggested by any organism we identify regards our ability to assess whether it behaves in a way that is independent of what we have identified as its instinctive behavior. Behavior is a response to stimuli; therefore, the organism must have a both an observable or testable sensory and response system. Evidence of a mind would be produced by the organism's response systems, which we would observe as its behaviors. If any of the animal examples you've consider for the presence of mind displayed behaviors identified as non-instinctive, that animal likely has a mind--of course consideration must be given for whether the animal's non-instinctive behavior was caused by an abnormality or disease affecting its brain function.

With memory, there's this generally accepted idea that the brain produces two types: Short-term working memory and long-term memory. Relative to the dreaming brain, the accepted idea is that dreaming is one way in which our brain consolidates short-term memories into long-term memory. To support this idea, copious research has revealed enhanced acuity in brain function only after it has received sufficient dreaming-level (REM) sleep--however, as I have so often discovered, the researchers conclusions are flawed, which brings us back to the neuronal nature of memory. In brief, the conclusions sleep/memory researchers have reached suggest that memory is like food stock in a refrigerator (short-term memory) that dreaming consolidates or move into freezer storage (long-term memory). This conclusion is flawed because it doesn't account for the effects of our brain's glymphatic system. Briefly, brain activity creates cell waste and the glymphatic process is how the brain cleans itself. Researchers of sleep and dreaming have not accounted for the effects of that process in their research. Sleep/memory researchers gauge the acuity effects of waking and testing sleep study participant amid the various stages of sleep. Their sleep interruption study approach impedes the brain's ability to clean itself, which occurs more efficiently during sleep. These interruptions impede the brain ability to remove obstructions between cell communication--allow our brain to complete its sleep cycles enhances the connectivity between its neurons, which enhances functional acuity. In my view, which appears to be alligned with your neuroscience citations, memory isn't analogous to moving food stock from refrigerator to freezer; memory is a well worn path between destinations that gets lost or forgotten if not traveled often and cleared of debris. How I determine whether an organism's behavior suggest it has a mind is by asking myself if that organism is behaving in way that is independent of its instinctive nature. If an organism is engaging in a behavior that does not align with what we know of its instinctive behaviors, then we may infer from the behaviors we observe that the organism has engaged a choice not to follow its instinct, which to me suggest a thought process. Indeed, behaviors that suggest a thought process infers evidence of a mind and, by my definition, a mind is quantified by a brain's capacity to merge dichotomous sensory data with its memory stores in a process that produces behaviors independent of instinct.

Knowing what consciousness is and how it works depends on one's definition of consciousness. Excluding various faiths and philosophies, the science suggest to me that consciousness is merely a basic awareness suggested by an organism's observed behavioral responses to stimuli and nothing more than that. In my view, every living organism potentially has some level of consciousness, which is simply some level of sensory awareness of its environment. In my view, consciousness and mind are not synonymous--consciousness is a precursor to or prerequisite for mind. Although some ascribe consciousness with some salient or spirital quality, for me it is merely a term that identifies an organism as having a sensory system. Having a sensory system, for me, does not suggest that an organism has a mind; however, having a sensory system is essential for building the response systems essential to the construct of mind--mind is a product of our brain's response systems. For example, during dream sleep, your identity of self relative to your life and sleep environment is lost to that dreaming state. It is only when you awake from the dream state that you become fully aware of who you are relative to physical reality. This happens because our brain does not have full access to the body's sensory system amid the dream state. We regain our full sense of self when we arouse from dream sleep as our brain reconnects to the body's sensory because that connection stimulates those neural pathways our brain uses to navigate our physical/material reality--it is our connection to our body the reminds us of who we are relative to our reality when we awake. Mind and consciousness are not the same because, in my view, having mind is reserved for organisms whose behaviors suggest a thought process. Before ascribing mind to an organism that organism's should demonstrate it's ability to engage behaviors contrary to its instinctive behaviors. For example, if you heard a sudden loud bang from behind, your instinct might be to distance yourself from that noise. If instead the noise came from a person in front of you who popped a balloon, you might not react from fear because you could visually assess the balloon pop threat level--your ability to engage thoughtful behaviors contrary to your fears suggests you have a mind.

If I now understand correctly, this discussion for you is broader than our separate views on the various theories about how mind originates. For you, if I understand, our discussion is also about how the evidence either supports or invalidates those theories. Although I believe there's sufficient evidence supporting a consensus for mind emergence, you believe differring interpretations of the evidence belie that consensus. Again, if I understand correctly, you perceive my perspective as aligned with mind-from-brain with body merely its vessel and sensory array. As you've offerred, your perspective is aligned with mind-from-brain and body with body as an "active participant" in memory, emotion, and cognition. In support of your position, you've offerred various citations suggesting that memory, emotion, and cognition may reside elsewhere in the body. If true, let's begin with memory. This idea of memory transference from cells, bio-matrices, or organs to the brain suggest the transference of these aspects learned experiences from the body external and subordinant to the brain. I don't readily accept evidence of any claim by the title of a paper or by the conclusions of its author. It has been my experience that all papers are in someway biased by the predisposition, objectives, and/or poor science of their authors. So when I explore claims of memory transference from aspects of the body subordinant to the brain, I'm the devil's advocate--I look for flaws and ask myself if these are sufficient to invalidate a claim. Admittedly, I have a predisposed bias to citations and rarely review them in their entirety. But I've prevoiusly read several papers on memory transference with organ transplants and have found them all insufficient for baseline evaluations of transplant recipients. I found their author's investigations should have included a thorough psychological assessment of their subject's history and suggestibility, which would explain their behaviors subsequent to the transplant. Regarding the notion of cell memory transference or "Do cells think", I agree that there is a type of memory transference between cells, but not between cellular matrices and the brain. The memory transference I speak of is described by what happens between cells to adapt to pathogens. To answer whether cells think, one must ask whether cells engage behaviors contrary to their instinctive nature--whether cell behaviors suggest a brain-equivalent thought process. Your perspective on brain-body interplay also offerred emotion and cognition as a body contribution to the mind our brain constructs. Emotion is an efferent response and exclusive domian of brain function. The emotional influence of our brain's subsystems does not describe a package (emotion) delivered to the brain, but instead describe our brain's reaction to that package--which is precisely the same with cognition. More recently, you've offerred citations suggesting the potential influence of wave forces external to the brain. It's true, wave forces such as those generated by strong magnetic fields have been shown to have a direct affect on brain function. This, perhaps, would be the only evidence of support for a wave field external to the brain that has an affect on the mind the brain creates--but this is about resphaping, adjusting or, possibly, ameliorate what's already there in the brain rather than implanting something external to the brain.

It's admittedly difficult to understand your perspective of the idea of mind-through-brain, which you've offerred for our consideration and discussion. The wording of this idea suggest that the brain is merely a conduit for the mind, which is secondary to something else. I also understand the of perception of mind-from-brain as suggesting mind originates from no other factor other than the brain. I believe your counter to that perception has been the idea of mind as a partnership between brain and body. If true, I agree that mind originates from a partnerships between brain and body. However, I don't believe we agree on the nature of that partnership. Foreign Accent Syndrome is a speech disorder that can occur as a result of brain trauma. People with this disorder speak with accent perceived as not native to their own. Other than an individual with savant syndrome, there's indeed no record of spontaneous acquisition of a foreign language due to brain trauma--a tangent that required my correction. In support of the idea of mind-through-brain, you've offerred citations suggesting memory transfers through transplants. These types of citations appear to support the idea of brain being a "conduit" for memories residing in the transplanted origin. My perspective of these types of citations is that they merely reflect the brain's responses to the transplant with something already present in the mind of the transplant's recipient through that recipient's prior knowledge or life experiences. Mind-from-brain, in my view, does indeed involve a partnership between brain and body. Without body--without a means to sense and engage life experience--our brain is incapable of producing a mind. Mind is our brain's cognitive response to stimuli and there is no mind without a brain's capacity to experience stimuli--our body is our brain's vehicle for experiencing stimuli.

Yes, and I have offered my perspective of the role of the body as a sensory array for engaging life experiences that basically support the metabolic/homostatic imperative of the brain and brain function. I'd perfer not to have my focus and discussions diverted by a tangent maze of multiple citations. So my focus has regarded what I believed to be the point you were trying to convey with all of your citations. When you provide citations focusing on "memory transfer and major personality changes" after transplants, it's quite clear your position isn't just about the prominent role of the body in the formation of mind. You are clearly providing support for our consideration of "mind-through-brain," which is counter to the more proven and provable position of "mind-from-brain." If you're promoting consideration of mind-through-brain evidence, that idea infers the emergence of mind or indeed a piece of mind from a location external to the brain. After considering the whole of the citations you've provided, I see that they are flawed. Firstly, self-reported and anecdotal reports or observations of memory transfers and personality changes after organ transplants are not solid science. No where in any of these types of citations have I found discussion of how prior knowledge of the donor or of the donor's lifestyle might have influenced the organ recipient's thoughts and behaviors. For example, one citation mentioned a recipient's aquired taste for beer after receiving the organ of a donor who died in a motorcycle accident. As a scientist, I'd ask, "How much did the donor recipient know about the donor before and after their transplant?" I'd ask, "What impact did that knowledge have on the psychology of the recipient?" As a scientist, there should have been a baseline assessment of the recipient's life and personality prior to receiving any knowledge of the recipient. It may be that the recipient's prior knowledge of bikers influence the psychological impact of receiving an organ from a biker. This is akin to people who experience head trauma and awaken one day speaking a different language or with a foreign accent--the inference is that the trauma these people experience unlock some unconscious store of life experience associated with that foreign language or accent. Indeed it does, like an atrophied muscle through non-use. However, this type of brain transformation doesn't fit the mind-through-brain model. Again, that idea appears to suggest that mind has to come from somewhere external to the brain--that mind has to be input to the brain before mind can be created and expressed by the brain.

I understand the point you're attempting to convey with all of this, which is that these are all at least some psychological evidence that parts of the mind may exist elsewhere in the body and, by extension, part of mind may exist external to the body. It's true that trauma changes the mind our brain creates, but the psychological effects of trauma isn't truly evidence that mind has lost pieces of itself with that truama--it's not evidence that parts of the mind exist in the parts of the body lost or exposed to trauma. The psychological effects of truama simply shows how easily brain's responses are influenced by truama, which is how easily the mind our brain constructs may be influenced by the data it receives through its sensory array. For example, congenital blindness doesn't suggest that parts of the mind are lost to what some are unable to see nor does it suggest that parts of the mind reside in our eyes. What blindness shows is how the lack of access to visual sensory data affects the mind our brain is able to construct--the parts of the brain associated with our responses to visual sensory do not respond or function as efficiently without that sensory data. In another example, the lost of a hand doesn't suggest that a piece of the mind is lost with that hand. The mind our brain constructs through the lost of a limb merely suggests our brain's reaction to the lost of access to the sensory data that limb has or could have provided. Psychological effects, to be clear, are not evidence that pieces of the mind reside elsewhere no more than the depression some experience on rainy days suggests that pieces of the mind reside in sunlight or is blotted out by that rain. The changes in our mental state are merely evidence of the fragility of the balance between the afferent influences on brain functions and our brain's efferent responses to those influences. That may be true, but the real magic is in the mind of the magician who head that hat likely sits upon.

No aplologies are necessary and I, sincerely, appreciate our participation in this discussion. As I mentioned in previous comments, I have a proclivity for perceiving the simplest form of things. When I evaluated the science on the collaboration of brain and body to create mind, I perceive the distinct role each appears to play in that collaboration. In considering the science of brain and body as progenitors of mind, I've asked myself, "What is mind relative to the brain and what is mind relative to the body?" The science informs me that mind is a cognitive response of brain function and the evidence suggests that mind does not exist without brain function. Relative to the body, the science informs me that the body is merely a vehicle that facilitates the brain's survival imperative. From this perspective one might ask, "So how important is the body to the brain functions that produce a mind?" The answer to that question has been provided for centuries through effects of war, experiment, and everyday accidents the body has experienced. Ask yourself, "Has a history of non-fatal body dismemberment showed the disappearance of mind?" Has a significant lost of limbs or removal of prominent organs consistently resulted in a deminished capacity of our brain's ability to produce a mind? Although there may be psychological effects associated with these, those effects are treatable and not consistently permanent. So how important is the body to the brain's production of mind when significant bodily damage doesn't inhibit that production? My certainty of the role of body in the interplay that produces mind is rooted in a clear perspective of that role. A discussion of the things that sit on top of the mind's foundation, in my view, is discussion of the hat that sits upon a head-- the thinking actually occurs below the hat.