Athena

This thread has been ruined. I wish Greg had used these words... "You're asking me questions that I have previously answered to the best of my ability. We are at an impasse. You are unable to comprehend what I am saying and I am unable to convey it in a way so that you can comprehend it." Discussions without comprehension can be most unpleasant when people who lack the ability to comprehend are allowed to attack, and repeatedly put a poster on the defensive, instead of asking polite, non offensive questions. Then in comes someone with the big guns and who settles who wins and who looses, making the victim of the attacks completely powerless. I wonder this makes the attackers feel? Are they pleased with their win? We have all lost the benefits of this thread, because of how it was ruined. Maybe a new one can be started about the global warming, CO2 and the ocean acidity problem, that is for sure a matter of life and death. I want to thank Greg for leading me to this information with his original post.

Thank you for addressing the subject. I am very glad to know there was a news article about the phosphorous problem! I have seen nothing in our news about it. Come to think of it. I live near farms and perhaps I could knock on doors and ask the farmers themselves, if they are aware of the coming problem and have a plan? We are lucky because the farms near us produce a wide variety of vegetables and we can go directly to the farms and buy our produce, or go to the Saturday farmers market. There might be a problem using human waste for fertilizer. Our waste is all mixed up with all our sewage which includes soups and other chemicals. I think it is mercury in our sewage that is the main problem, and we might able to resolve that? I sort of looked into this when I was excited about methane. We just are not being as careful as we could be in managing our waste. We could be reclaiming methane and manure, if we can get the bad stuff out of our sewage. Now I am getting excited, because we have so many farm animals around us, and I know these farmers would be glad to get rid of their waste and we have one site that does convert garbage into methane, but the operation is hurting, because we have removed so much form our garbage and recycle it in other ways. If someone increased the operation with the animal waste, we might have something really good going? What do you think? Burning methane puts CO2 into the air right? I just read an article about how the ocean is becoming dead because it absorbs CO2 and this makes it acid and that kills a lot of what grows in the ocean. We seriously need to get CO2 out of the air. I think that is what Essay is working on. By increasing our use of charcoal we might reduce the CO2 problem, right? Religion is playing a role in keeping the global birth rate too high. I believe this is a problem especially in Mexico where the population is more apt to be Catholic. It would be great if the Pope supported birth control. In the east it is religions that say a son must bury you, that keeps pushing population increase. It would be wonderful to correct this problem, right? All we can do is continue working on getting the information out. People from all over the world come to western countries and many maintain communication with people in their place of birth. We are also connecting on the internet. When we have pleasant and informative discussions, we have hope. I have to say, an argument is simply a statement, and is a good thing, until the response is an unpleasant one. Greg repeatedly was put on the defensive in a most unpleasant way and I am extremely displeased by how this been handled.

The arguing going on is not worthy of people serious about science, and accusing anyone of trolling when everyone is participating in stupid arguing, while ignoring facts, is like putting rocks in snow balls, when the other is not using rocks. I will try this one more time. 2050 is not 500 years from now. We could exhaust our known supplies of phosphorus by 2050. This is a main ingredient in fertilizers, and we can not maintain high yields without it. " Every living cell must have two elements, potassium and phosphorus. Phosphorus tend to get locked in mineral compounds form quite easily instead of freely circulating. Bones and teeth are calcium phosphate. Simply to build the bones of 1.2 billion Chinese takes a lot of phosphorus. It has been suggested that lack of phosphorus accounts for the typically small-bone structure of many Asians. Keeping phosphorus in circulation so that all people can get their needed share is somewhat of a problem already. It may be more so in the future. Luther Tweeten, Professor of Agriculture Marketing at Ohio State University, at the 1995 meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science stated that the world "currently uses about 150 million metric tons of phosphorus rock a year." This use is now increasing at the rate of four percent a year. There is an estimated 34 billion metric tons of phosphate rock in the world reserve. Phosphate is used as fertilizer for almost all food crops and thus into the human system. But if the current usage trend continues, the world's supply of phosphate may be depleted by 2050. If world population growth can be slowed to just one percent annual increase (compared with present 1.7), the phosphate supply would last 82 years. Tweeten further noted that phosphate is a basic building block of plants and for which there is absolutely no substitute." From GeoDestinies by Youngquist. So we will realize an end to phosphorus in deposits large enough for commercial use at same we hit this wall... http://dieoff.org/page40.htm Someone told me in PM that the dieoff link is old and not good science, so I made the effort to find better links. Each one has at least one fact about our food supply. Now you all have facts and can say what you think of them, and you can stop trashing this thread about a very important subject with arguments that will achieve nothing of any good. <br _mce_bogus="1"> Essay has something important to say about adopting to climate change, and I hope he connects his ideas with the problem stated in the link. Is this a serious fact or something we can dismiss as untrue? Again this is 2050, not 500 years from now. http://www.scienceda...00201101901.htm This one is about water management and a failure to invest, which becomes a less likely investment considering everyone's economic problems. This might get some people to the article talked about in the link. I can't use PDF so I can check it out. [PDF] Entire nation has online access to more than 2000 e-journals www.iwmi.cgiar.org/News_Room/.../AGWAT_Press_Release_final.pdfFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View Feb 1, 2010 – Agricultural Water Management in Articles in Press, 27 January 2010, published by Elsevier. Full text articles are available to members of ... This one supports what Youngquist said. China is going to want Morocco's phosphate, and we know, as something becomes scarce the price goes up, so fertilizer will cost more and that means food will cost more. We also know economic troubles could get worse, and greater numbers of people may find it hard to pay higher food prices. This may not be a problem for well off people, but it will be a problem for the unemployed, and if the riot, than that be a problem for the more fortune people. Whatever, it is not something we should continue to ignore, while engaging in petty arguments. As for the economic problems, these are not the only resources being exhausted, and we need to do a serious reality check. I think the argument about droughts is a petty one, but considering the accusations that go with it, perhaps some links about droughts and who gets to eat and who does not, are in order. Like this isn't just about the history of droughts, but our new situation of climate change that is playing a role in this whole debate. http://www.bloomberg...st-of-beef.html The problem is not limited to hay and beef, but also involves wheat. Given the arguments in this thread, perhaps I should say wheat is the main ingredient of bread, pizza crust and pasta. The problem is not to limited to Texas or even the US, but has hit other countries as well. These droughts not only mean higher prices for food, and therefore people going hungry, but they also mean lost markets and this hurts the economies of countries hit by droughts and floods. I think there is a huge under appreciation of what farmers do for us, and how vulnerable our food supply is. ttp://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-03-24/worst-texas-drought-in-44-years-eroding-u-s-wheat-beef-supply.html Gee, I don't know what it takes to prove that poverty is worsening but may be something here will work as proof? Poverty is worsening in African LDCs www.un.org/ecosocdev/geninfo/afrec/vol16no2/162povty.htm - CachedPoverty is worsening in African LDCs. UNCTAD says commodity dependence is a key factor. By Nirit Ben-Ari. Compared with least developed countries in other ... ► AIDS Hindering Economic Growth, Worsening Poverty in Hard-hit ... gbgm-umc.org/programs/aidsafrica/durban1.stm - CachedHIV/AIDS is already starting to have immense impact on the economies of hard-hit countries, hurting not only individuals, families and firms, ... Rising food inflation worsening poverty in India - PressTV 100713 ... www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIYmxJ8ukc42 min - Jul 13, 2010 - Uploaded by newsupload2010 Rising food inflation worsening poverty in India - PressTV 100713. newsupload2010 7510 videos. Subscribe Alert icon Subscribed ... More videos for worsening poverty » Amazon.com: UNEMPLOYMENT IS WORSENING POVERTY AND OTHER PROBLEMS ... www.amazon.com › Books › Business & Investing › Economics - CachedThis digital document is an article from NotiSur - South American Political and Economic Affairs, published by Latin American Data Base/Latin American ... Worsening poverty 'due to natural disasters' | Sun.Star www.sunstar.com.ph › Tacloban › Local News - CachedMay 27, 2011 – AN OFFICIAL of the Department of Social Welfare and Development (DSWD) blamed the impact of natural calamities for the worsening poverty ... Climate Change Worsening Poverty in India www.defence.pk/.../41491-climate-change-worsening-poverty-india... - Cached15 posts - 7 authors - Last post: Apr 12, 2010At 8 feet below sea level, Pakistan's financial capital Karachi shows up on the list of world's mega-cities threatened by global warming. [PDF] DIVIDED THEY FALL: HARDSHIP IN AMERICA'S CITIES AND SUBURBS www.rockinst.org/.../2007-11-divided_they_fall_hardship_in_america's_...File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat by DJ Wright - 2007 - Cited by 2 - Related articles West had worsening poverty impaction over the 1990s. Only 13 percent of the Southern cities in our study worsened. This is a different pattern from the ... High Growth, Rising Inequalities, Worsening ... - South Asia Books southasiabooks.com/high-growth-rising-inequalities-worsening-pov... - CachedMar 8, 2011 – South Asia Books has been the premier distributor of books from India for 41 years. Its Founder, Professor Jerry Barrier, was considered one ... British Columbia's “Boom” spreading worsening poverty www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/.../02067.htm... - Canada - CachedDec 31, 2007 – British Columbia's “Boom” spreading worsening poverty ... as increasing numbers of people are experiencing worsening poverty. ... allAfrica.com: Africa: World Bank Warns of Worsening Poverty in ... allafrica.com/stories/200110010498.htmlOct 1, 2001 – World Bank Warns of Worsening Poverty in Africa After US Attacks ... Washington, DC — The poverty in developing nations next year will ... These do not seem to cover Russia where things are really bad, and the people are dying so fast, investors are concerned about Russia maintaining a strong enough work force, to make their investments good. I could add a site to explain this, but I hope some people question if they are reacting logically or emotionally to what is being said here, because not all the arguments are logical ones, and they sure are not based on facts, but are just attacks. Why did you make this argument? You are attacking someone who made a post, and you have not stated facts about the subject. Things are getting worse and by 2050 things will probably be a lot worse than they are now. Attack the problems, not the people who make post. I could ask the same question of you.

I think there is an error in your logic. It is like saying the response to someone killing a baby, is to give another child life. When what needs to happen is make it very clear, killing babies is wrong and intolerable. That is what the action is about. Making it clear that what some job placement services are doing is wrong and will not be tolerated. Competing with them does not achieve the desired goal of clarifying what is right and what is wrong.

Wow that was a pretty direct statement. May be if I knew the Jewish interpretation of the Torah it would be believable, but given what I know, it seems to me the Hebrews plagiarized Sumerian stories. However, I do think the Torah records a lot of wisdom. I wonder if our planet would be in a whole lot better condition if we let our land, rivers, lakes and oceans rest every seven years, allowing these systems, we depend on for food, to regenerate. It gets difficult when wisdom and biased history get all mixed up with mythology and prejudices. There is truth there, but that doesn't make it all true, and I can not imagine a God having chosen people, like the patron gods and goddesses before the one God. As I read the explanation of slaves, only Jews can't be slaves, but they can owe slaves and their son's inherit them, and slaves were not equal under that law. I think there is a problem with this reasoning. Can I add to your logic that for a lake to not change, nothing that is outside of the lake can exist, because that which is not of the lake, changes the lake. So much as a stormy day changes the lake. So either everything has to be God, or God has to change with the existence of that which is not God. Is that logic right?

Darn, that should be "a real chance for power of the people, instead of "change". But if we move from apathetic to a strong and united voice, that would be a good change. I do things to exercise my political muscle that I usually think are as futile as a flea climbing up the leg of an elephant with the intention of rape, but this action might have a real effect, because companies are sensitive to public opinion. I think it has real potential if enough people get involved, because the media is responding to this conflict and large numbers of people get media attention. This action is a whole lot better than rioting in the streets and burning down buildings, and we need to take it, to assure sympathy stays with the people who have been cheated by those who managed our economy poorly. Instead of being apathetic as power and wealth is accumulated in the hands of a few.

The only comment I have received is the my first post in this thread is old and not up to scientific standards. I have since posted updated links that have not gotten attention. The economist Malthus explained populations increase exponentially, while the increase in the food supply is arithmetically. The end result is the population is greater than the ability to supply food. This is just talking the 2050 population, which becomes exponentially larger, and even if we met the 2050 need for food, without increased birth control, we will not continue meeting the need for food. PS my former husband and I determine to have only two children, one to replace him and one to replace me. We thought that was fair. With the information I posted in the links, I would advise against having any children, because our future does not look good at this time. The above quote is from my first link.

Personally, I think unless we are working with the information that is in the following links, the argument is like arguing if there is enough money to buy a new boat without checking the budget and bank account, and failing to consider there might be unexpected expenses coming, so a reserve is necessary. These links provide updated facts about our food supply. http://www.deccanher...-hit-world.html http://newsfeed.time...f-food-by-2050/ http://www.scienceda...00201101901.htm http://www.baysoundi...phosphate1.html We need to reduce population growth and to better manage our resources, and even then, that might not be enough, because the very meaning of finite means limited. Not only is the planet finite, but so are our brains. Crowding people together in small spaces has a negative effect on human relationships. We become strangers in a crowd and this has moral repercussions.

Shouldn't this logical argument be less abstract and more concrete? Unlimited growth is not possible, and we will have a mass die off in about 40 years. Of course, I will be very glad if you convince me I am wrong, because this information and the link are wrong. So we will realize an end to phosphorus in deposits large enough for commercial use and the at same we hit this wall... http://dieoff.org/page40.htm

I have moved a link about our future food supply to the economics verses reality thread. Perhaps it should go to the link about growth? It kind of blows me away that some people are not making the connection between resources and cost, and the economy. In our future, owning enough land to feed the family maybe as important as it was in the past. The land that goes with our homes is getting smaller and smaller and is far from enough to feed a family. Right now I worry about the cost of land, and the cost of raising cows, which brings us to the cost of milk. I do not know how we can keep milk as affordable as it is, and it has increased by a greater percentage than minimum wage. This means milk will become increasingly difficult for the poor family to buy, and there is no west for future generations to move to.

That sounds good, but.... we have plastic right and our coins are made out of something other than the minerals that once gave them value. Point being, what can we make that could not be made anywhere else in the world? Mineral wealth has value, because mother nature made it in limited qualities. So your gold ring has much more value then a plastic ring. Rome was interested in the British Isles because of its mineral wealth. The US became wealthy because of its mineral wealth. Japan would be hurting if it could not important minerals, such as steal and rare earth, because it does not have its own mineral wealth, and would not have a bases for its industry if it could not important the minerals it needs. How do I say? A nation's wealth is built on its mineral resources, and our substitutes will never equal that kind of wealth, because if we can make it, anyone can make it, so it isn't limited like minerals from the earth and will never have the value of minerals. It will have the value of plastic. Of course oil is finite and it is essential to plastic, so when we really realize the end of this resource, plastic won't be so cheap either. Remember we used copper for pennies, and now copper isn't that easy to come by, and is too expensive to use in pennies. Whatever, they are making pennies out of these days, if you bury one in fall and dig up in the Spring, it will be so eroded you might not even be able to be sure it is a penny. Essay you like to write about our soil and food supply. Here is a reality check for everyone. Perhaps this link should go in the thread about the limits of growth? http://dieoff.org/page40.htm By the time my granddaughter is 50 years old, we could be realizing mass starvation. We will need all the food we can produce, but won't be able to loose the $40 billion for food exports. China needs our food and we owe China, so what do think will happen? If we want to be sure our grandchildren eat, this is the time to plan for that.

Before we can have unlimited growth of human populations we have to solve this problem. Nothing short of assuring everyone will get plenty of phosphorus will do, if you want to argue that unlimited growth of human populations is possible.<br><br> <br><br>Okay, those of you arguing unlimited growth is possible, what do you think will happen when we exhaust our know supply of phosphate?<br><br>

Cicero is perhaps the best known Roman statesman. He defended the democracy of Rome and I love quoting him. However, he seriously failed to understanding economic reality, and so are we. Many Romans lost their land while they were off fighting wars for Rome, and they could not get jobs, because wars gave Rome plenty of slaves who were doing all the work. Rome shifted from a citizen military to a paid military, increasing what the government had to pay for war. We shifted from slaves to electricity and machines replacing the need for human labor, and never adjusted our economy to reflect this changed reality. We switched to a technological military force that needs your money more than it needs your sons, and citizens have lost control of this military force and its cost. Finally, Rome exhausted its supply of gold, and compensated for this by cutting coins with cheaper metals, devaluing their money and causing inflation. We shifted from backing our money with gold to silver, to backing it with our gross national product. GNP is a count of how many times a dollar a changes hands, so we can shift into a service economy and not really notice a difference. However, there comes a time when lack of industry means, those services can no longer be supported, and the result is growing unemployment. We tried to cover the lack of real income with credit and the shit has hit the fan. Our gross national wealth is sudden a lot less than it was. The dollar stops changing hands, so the GNP falls and the cost of credit goes up. This is kind of like a person suffering dehydration. If a seriously dehydrated person drinks a lot of water s/he will vomit it, because they body is too stressed to handle the water. This is a very difficult period that takes time, and because we have exhausted more than our supply of oil, I am not sure we can recover. Sending our industry around the world, was not good for our citizens who need jobs. Using our military to defend our economic interest, is not good for the citizens who have to pay for this, and no longer have high paying industrial jobs, even if they can not read or write, because factory jobs didn't always require 3 college degrees and five years of related work experience. You know what made King Solomon so great? I am sure Christians believe it was God. A more practical person might say it was his mines. The rise and fall of kings, empires, nations is based on mineral wealth. It is not enough to have mineral wealth, but it is also necessary to have the technology necessary for extracting the minerals from the earth, and a technological use for the minerals. It is this technological fact that separated the US from the former USSR. These two nations are unique in the world, because of the variety and amount of their mineral wealth they both had. The US advanced the technology to take advantage of the mineral wealth and the USSR did not. Now before you all start cheering for the superiority of the US, get this. The US has exploited its mineral resources and spent its wealth, and now is in big trouble. Instead of being the worlds supplier, it is now the worlds biggest consumer, but now lack of wealth is preventing the US from being the consuming that is essential to keeping this economy going, and all nations that depend on this economy are going down. Now what is the best way to deal with this reality? Tax the rich? Boost consumer confidence? God I hate how the media present the problem.

THANK YOU SO MUCH. MAYBE THERE IS HOPE OF A BETTER ECONOMIC DISCUSSION. I seriously do not want to take threads off topic, and this one has been going very well. However, the Maryland almost went bankrupt ~1830s/1840s has not been so active and I did some explaining about oil and the value of the dollar in that thread. There are similarities between the banking problems in 1830s/1940's and very dangerous dissimilarities. Reality can be a bummer right now, however, when something is destroyed, that is an opportunity for something new to take its place, and we seriously need to look for something new!

Yipes, I goofed and quoted myself instead of editing my post. Oh well, it does need to be said our money situation is nothing like the past. In the past we tied the value of money to gold and silver. Now it is tied to our gross national product. Our gross national product is a count of how many times a dollar changes hands, so if the money stops flowing, our gross national product goes down, and then our credit rating goes up. Because the world traded oil in dollars, all countries wanted dollars and several pegged their currency to the dollar. I don't understand the complexity of all this, but it this gave special importance to the dollar. If the USSR had gotten control of mid east oil, it could have insisted oil be sold in its currency, and that would have taken the advantage from the US and given it to the USSR. We had to take Saddam out, because he began trading oil in Euro's and the Euro was increasing in value. Again if the world began trading oil Euro's instead of dollars, the value of the dollar would have crashed. It is the best interest of some to make keep the Euro weaker than the dollar, but not too weak. I would love to be a fly on the wall, where matters like this are being discussed. I think 9/11 was specifically an attack on the New World Order. What was hit was the Trade Center and Pentagon (military force used to defend the economic interest of the New World Order) and We don't know the third target, but I would guess it would have been related to money. 9/11 is our emergency phone, and I think it was a message of economic emergency. Mid east countries were putting their oil bucks in our banks, which then loaned the money around the world. I think this really pissed off some of smart people in Arab countries off. We were buying their oil very cheap, and banking their money and making a profit on it. I am afraid I am taking this thread off topic, and I am also very sad that so far I haven't found anyone who can discuss this subject, so all our economic discussions, are futile. Whatever, today's world is nothing like the past, except for that speculation buying that leads to disaster. I am afraid school loans will be our next economic disaster as the students will not be getting the jobs they need to pay them off, and their efforts to pay off these loans, will prevent them from buying homes and new cars. Our banking system is a disaster waiting to happen and always has been, but today that could be a worse problem, because the value of the dollar is tied to the world trading oil in dollars and to our gross national product which can crash, and we no longer have the mineral resources that can pull us out of another economic collapse.

This discussion is too abstract for me. I think we need to begin with simpler concepts, such as a penny isn't worth a penny now that they are made without copper and if buried in Fall and dug up in Spring they will be rotted, some beyond recognition. I think our big economic problem is, discussions of economics are not based in reality. We do not understand the relationship between oil and our economy, so how can we speculate about what will happen a year from now? Oops, baby is awake. Have to shut down and feed baby.

What happens before an event is important as the time of the event, so I think we should say, the flood of immigrants was putting the pressure on everything. Which brings us to... From "Pictorial Encyclopedia of American History" 1829 to 1850 May I point out our coins had value because of the minerals in them. Gold, silver, nickle and copper were used to give our coins value. Canada stopped using these valuable minerals in their coins before the US did so, and therefore, US banks would not accept Canadian coins. Of course now there are no valued minerals in our coins, so their value is completely imaginary. This is not unlike Rome exhausting its supply of gold and cutting its coins with cheaper minerals, and in so doing creating inflation, and then Rome fell. Essay, I do not want to discredit what you said about soil depletion, because commonly economic turmoil is tied to shortages in food supply, which we now know brought down entire civilizations. We should not have a this or that argument, but this and this discussion. These people did not have industry except in the industrialize north and life there was really bad, because of terrible working conditions and terrible housing conditions. Being landless in the south, where jobs were done by slaves, had to suck. The ideal, until rather recently, was to own land, and use that land for all the families needs, and when lucky raise enough plants or animals to sell for everything the family could not produce itself. Now if a person didn't know soil, or wasn't aware of climates needed for farming, or was unaware of problems like tornadoes and flooding, this person could loose everything in a bad land deal. On the other hand, if a person got a homestead in the right place, near a river and forest, s/he had a natural supermarket full of food free for the taking, and timber for housing free for the taking. To insist on running our economy as we did back than is just STUPID.

"The oxygen in the atmosphere is the exhalation of the chloroplasts living in plants (also, for our amazement, in the siphons of giant clams and lesser marine animals). It is a natural tendency for genetically unrelated cells in tissue culture to come together, ignoring species differences, and fuse to form hybrid cells. Inflammation and immunology must indeed be powerfully designed to keep us apart; without such mechanisms, involving considerable effort, we might have developed as a kind of flowing syncytium over the earth, without the morphogenesis of even a flower." The Lives of a Cell by Lewis Thomas is one of the most exciting books I have read. Exciting in part because it is easy to read, so the reader can enjoy the sensation of being intelligent. We would not exist if it were not for organisms that live inside us and convert matter to energy. Life is societies of organisms working together. Even bacteria must work with us for its own survival, and we are dependent it on for things like digesting our food and giving energy to muscle cells. Sometimes something goes wrong with this balance, but we should not loose sight that life is a balance and co-dependent manifestation. I look forward to future medicine, that pays as much attention to the health and needs of the tiny organism that live within us, as it pays attention to our own bodies. I think this might unlock the mystery of such conditions as chronic fatigue. It does explain conditions such as rheumatic fever. "Most bacteria are totally preoccupied with browsing, altering the configurations of organic molecules so that they become usable for the energy needs of other forms of life. They are, by and large, indispensable to each other, living in interdependent communities in the soil and sea."

I surely wonder at the media reporting of the budget crisis. Republicans raised the debt ceiling without the big fuss we just had. How is it, now that a democrat is president, raising the debt ceiling becomes a major political struggle? Republicans have also raised taxes. How is it that now a democrat is president, it is so taboo to raise taxes? Why are we not getting good figures on our military expenses, including CIA expenses, and what we spend to buy off political leaders in other countries, including gifts of military aid? Does anyone know how we can access a real accounting of the national budget? Perhaps we should discuss oil and our economy? A budget isn't just about what is owed, but also about how much money is available. That has something to do with oil and fiat money. Like President Carter said we needed to conserve, and Reagan told us we didn't need to conserve, slashed domestic budgets and poured money into military spending, including taking money form Social Security to cover his spending. Our military spending has sky rocket since the 1950'tys and the media just doesn't have much to say about this when speaking of the debt problem. When the value of the dollar goes down, it takes more dollars to pay off debt, and the value of the dollar is tied to oil. I am delighted that this discussion is moving in the direction of the cost of the Military Industrial Complex. We need to take Eisenhower's words seriously. In Germany the Military Industrial Complex was called the New World Order, and since 1958 we have prepared our young to be products for industry, and all serve the Military Industrial Complex, which in turn determines what we need and what will be provided. This is not the democracy we had. To understand this, it is best to study German history and especially the Prussian generals and men like Dr. Friedrich Naumann. As Dr. Friedrich Naumann explains, "The war of the future is a problem of economic organization of the most difficult nature and highest technological achievement, such as has never been hitherto demanded of from any army." What has been happening since WWII is not exactly national defense as we had always managed national defense, it is about the concept of Military Industrial Complex and future wars. The media ignores the Military Industrial Complex and talks of cutting Social Security. The media seriously fails to inform the public, as self governing people needs to be informed, and the Republicans appear especially good at managing the media, and using Christians including Zionist Christians who fund the folks behind Boehner. Yes, industry is using our military, but do not over look the Jewish and Zionist Christian interest which keeps a lot of money flowing to Israel and Egypt as well as military gifts. These places of interest to us, are strategically important especially for the control of oil. The NWO and MIC are about a military force to secure economic interest. Now we are told industry won't give us jobs if we do not give industry tax cuts, putting the burden of the Military Industrial Complex on the individual tax payer. I love your explanation of the problem? I honestly think what we have is the same thing that always existed in history. The wealthy convincing the king why they should not be taxed, and the peasants need to be controlled, as it is the peasants who support everyone with their labor and tributes to the land lord, church and king. Why give them Social Security and a national health plan, if this can be avoided?

How about if we return to the notion that no one has sex outside of marriage? That may sound Puritanical, but seriously, saying we have sexual freedom and than making up laws and punishments as we have been doing is better than Puritanism how? I have not said a male or female must be fully clothed to avoid unwanted sex. I think nudism might be a better to go. Seriously! In the past a woman showing an ankle was very erotic but today, she can show her bare arms and legs and no one thinks of it. On some islands, people think no more of a woman going topless than we think of them baring their arms and legs. I have heard nudist camps are very civilized and perhaps we would actually reduce sex crimes by becoming nudist. Why is it so intolerable for woman if a man takes advantage of her? Seriously? It is really that much worse than the banker taking advantage of a person's need for a loan, or a home? Why? We have become worse than the Puritans, because we are branding people for life for something that isn't that bad. Why are we doing this and defending it? What of being understanding and compassionate regarding young people?

Well, the science forum is not the place to discussion politics, or this thread would be doing much better. However, I do have to say bombing Libya is not what I would call Obama getting us into war. I would say this is Obama respecting our UN obligations. http://www.bbc.co.uk...africa-12796972 We come to this, by slashing domestic budgets ever since Reagan and pouring all our money into military spending, having the most expensive military might, and most advanced military technology in the world. We led the world in democracy, but that leadership is long forgotten. We are now the Military Industrial Complex we defended our democracy against, and our leadership role shifted to economic and military domination of the world, something we are failing at miserably as we enter wars without taxing for them. Now, like Rome, we are moving in an unsustainable direction. If everyone over 65 dropped dead, so Social Security and Medicare were not necessary, that would improve the funding of the Military Industrial Complex, but what is its human value?

Oh my God, those who receive Social Security don't need it? We live in completely different universes. I don't know how to deal with this, as the people I know are highly or completely dependent on Social Security, and the cuts hurt terribly. Many of us qualify for food stamps and other forms of assistance, and go without medical care and medicine. The only way we cover extras like a new pair of shoes, is to cut from our food budget. We do most our clothes shopping at second hand stores. Why do you think you know much about religion? What efforts have you made to be knowledgeable of religion? You jump in here and make an argument, but really how can you back up your argument? I don't know how I should handle such an argument? When it comes to this thread, what is your understanding of why the US supports Israel and what that cost us? What is your understanding of why Saddam stopped getting along with the US and went from being supported by the US and given arms and training to fight Iran, to being killed by the US? Do you understand, the 1973 oil embargo, was about OPEC embargoing oil to the US because they sided with Palestine? Saddam was also siding with Palestine. Why should we oppose Palestine and support Israel? How can the people of the US make good decisions without understanding what they are about? Zionist Christians having a convention in DC when the budget is on the line is a more important than some realize.

Oh man, I never liked Bill Clinton and a book passed around by conservative, "Michael Mew Mercenary of American Soldier?", by Danial New, gives some explanation of how Clinton supported the UN with military needs, in such a way that congress didn't have to approve of the spending. He also spend a lot of the CIA, another larger hidden expense, and he expected a lot from the CIA too. To get into office Obama married with the Clinton's. I really think we need to know more about these games politicians are playing, and for darn sure, we need much more honest and accurate accounting of how much is being spent for military purpose. This would include what we spend to control political leaders around the world, in the form of foreign aid, which includes a few tanks and military planes. For sure Clinton is running the war action. Check this out http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Yugoslavia/BillClintonsWar_Yugo.html We need a better understanding of the connections we have with other countries and the UN, and NATO because our presidents have to deal the whole world and UN, not just the citizens. They also get donations from around the world, and I don't know how comfortable I am with this? For sure we made ourselves a military might, and folks like Bush and Clinton like to play war games. I do know, right now I have a goal of raising awareness and I would sell my soul to the devil to achieve that goal, and I think that is what Obama did. He wants to lead us with words of wisdom, and has written books, including at least one children's book. I totally understand doing things that might not be cool, to have the power of voice political leaders have. Obama is doing his best to lead us with the forgotten spirit of American and virtues, and I think he partnered with the Clinton's to do this. For sure when we used special forces to take out Laden that was a Clinton move! That is not something Obama is into. He just doesn't think in those terms. In the Obama/ Clinton marriage. Obama gets to do his thing, and the Clinton's get to do their thing. Please, go to the religion forum and thread about religion and politics, if you are interested in what religion has to do with corrupt politics. That is the cost of being the New World Order leader, or as Eisenhower called it, the Military Industrial Complex. It is much more than this, because we have used public education to enslave our young to this war machine. That began in 1958 with the implementation of the National Defense Education Act. We stopped transmitting our culture and left moral training to the church. We switched from training for logic and independent thinking, to memorization and "group think". We are what we defended our democracy against. Our New World Order leaders who love being in the driver's seat of this war machine, do not need our sons as much as they need our tax dollars to support this war machine. I like Obama, because with his words he is defending the democracy we once were, but to have this opportunity, he cut a deal with the devil.

This is the 3rd day of my fast and I am not as mentally alert as I need to be, so answering questions is a bite more challenging. During the cold war with the USSR, the US propaganda made a big deal out of the USSR rejecting religion and the US being a nation of God. This is when we added God to our pledge of allegiance. This was extremely helpful in uniting the nation against those Godless communist. At the same time it motivated many citizens to take their threatened Christianity more seriously. Being a good citizen was tied to being a Christian. Religion unites people, and enemies unite people, exaggerating the imagined differences and increasing the need to identify with 'us' and against 'them'. Some ancient Greek guy wrote about what war does to people, and I wish I were smart enough to remember his name and what he said. More recent research observed how conflict leads to exaggerating differences. Like oh God, those Godless people are so terrible and threatening, and there are so many of them. Without God they are under the influence of Satan. They must either be converted or destroyed. Seriously, are you asking the question because you do not know what the people of the God of Abraham religions believe, or because you are one of them and do not question the good of your beliefs and the evil of non believers? This division of good and evil is actually Persian Zoroastrianism. The Jews were a tribe and as some native Americans called themselves the real people, and the Aztecs thought they were God chosen people, the Jews thought they were God's chosen people. In the ancient world everyone had a patron God or Goddess, and it is a real hoot that one tribal God, won out over all others. Christianity is a blend of many beliefs, especially Judaism, Sumerian and Egyptian mythology and Zoroastrianism, making a religion pitted against evil and darkness, and if you are not one of them, you are of the forces of evil and darkness, and this is tied to the Hebrew tribal war God that is jealous, fearsome, punishing and revengeful. Did you not read the links? You are not aware of what 9/11 has to do with the division of Christians and Muslims and the Christian Right's role in electing Bush and Cheney twice? Both sides, Muslims and Christians are mobilizing against each other, and this is very good for the religious organizations. Or in other areas of the world, especially India, the division of Muslims and Hindus that is so much behind the conflict between two nuclear powers, Pakistan and India. Threatened people cleave to their religious leaders and each other, and this makes war good for religion, and religion good for war. Especially when you have a jealous, fearsome, punishing and revengeful God. Republicans didn't just start wars, they manipulated Christians to support Bush, and once again Christians are being mobilized to maintain a war time budget and financial aid to Israel, for military purpose. When we invaded Iraq, media spoke of the shock and awe and power and glory, using religion to mobilize us for war. Our conflict with Iraq began with Saddam's support of the Palestinians and before this, he came to power because he was the US pick and support by the US because of the US's military strategy needs. People are playing deadly power games for control of global resources and markets, and they are using religion. My God, Bush jr. was not a Christian until he decided to run for President. Hello, Bush is a manipulator and the Christians have historical been manipulated. That means we will cut deeper into things like Social Security, and continue to increase military spending. Israel and Baghdad are militarily essential to the control of the mid east, and we want to run a pipe line through Afghanistan. The Social Security cut isn't that bad? I live on less than $700 a month and my Social Security hasn't increased in two years. There is no way I can afford assisted living, and that means I am totally screwed if I can not maintain my independence. A medication I am taking helps me maintain my independence, but cuts into medicare and medicaid could mean I can no longer meet my medical needs. Medicare does not cover dentures, hearing aids, or eye care. Would you like to be toothless, deaf and going blind, and helpless to do anything about correcting these problems as people with more money can do? This is a huge state budget issue, with our state representatives telling us they know people will die because of lack of services, but they have to cut service because there just is no money to for them, and people with incomes as low as mine, can not pay for service, dentures, hearing aids, etc.. Can you imagine needing medical care you can not get, and medicine you can not get, and being so weak you can not mop a floor or safely take a shower alone, and not being able to get help? How long would you want to live under those conditions? In Oregon we have assisted suicide, but life can be really bad, long before a person qualifies for assisted suicide. Christian conservatives seem determined to punish the poor by ignoring their lives of hell, except to give them prays and try to convert them, but then kind of ignore them less they are good paying members of the church. I almost joined a church once, but I couldn't afford it.

Bare with me, I don't see a draft function, so I will have to post and edit a few times to get the links in. I have been fasting since Friday, and will fly to Washington DC to protest the Tea Party and the Republican resistance to raising taxes to pay for the wars they started, while insisting we manage the national debt crisis by taking money from seniors. We all pay into Social Security and our monthly checks depend on how much we put in. This is separate from income taxes to pay government expenses, and those who got us into wars and keep us us in them, should not be able to break the deal our government made with hard working citizens. The Tea Party is hypocritical because the original Tea Party was opposed to increased taxes, Britain was making all British citizens, because several years of war, had Britain on the brink of bankruptcy. Our founders kept the power to make war out of our president's hands, and made it hard for us to go to war, because everyone knew war means taxes and they didn't want what we have had since Reagan began slashing domestic spending and pouring every penny he could in military spending. The media is failing us, because all this is not news, and the public is not well informed. This is in the religion forum, because of the part Christian Zionist play in keeping us in a state of war. Can you honestly believe they are just coincidentally having convention in Washington DC when the there is a fight over cutting the budget and what will be cut? Here is a Muslim perspective of that convention. http://www.almoltaqa...ead.php?p=73053 Here is another link of the same thing. I little different perspective. http://www.haaretz.c...israel-1.374161 Now here is an explanation of US aid to Israel and contributions of congressmen. http://wrmea.org/com...14-billion.html We might note the conference originates in Texas. I could be wrong, but I think, like the Bush administration, and especially the Texas Republicans, Christians are once again being using to control our spending on the military and cutting domestic budgets. We might also consider what industry will be kept healthy and what business will not be kept healthy if the Tea Party and John Boehner get their way way. We might pay more attention to what Eisenhower said about the Military Industrial Complex and what Carter said about needing to conserve. War is good for religion and religion is good for war, but we are a democracy, and need to do something about the manipulation of Christians for political ends, especially when have so much on the line.