Mike Smith Cosmos

. It seems to me to be a DANGEROUS path to tread . Namely to dismiss and /or Refuse any chance of some higher authority above humankind . Especially at this time , when 3/4 of the world population if not more , seem to be coincidentally focusing on :- . " who is to govern who " , across various stretches of the world's surface . . Let alone any other territory beyond Earth . Mike

What were these two Philosiphers talking about in Greece , on the Acropolis , all those centuries ago . Was it science in its infancy , was it how shadows are cast , was it the beauty of things , was it life and it's wonder , was it art, was it the stars above , how big is the universe , what is life all about ? MIKE

Yes , but that is assuming what you currently 'think ' is reality , is in fact only a part of reality. There may exist a yet undercovered, unaware part of reality , attatched to you current understanding , but as yet , an unaware component of the subject. Let us suppose the subject of research is like a tree well rooted on the edge of a pond . All the poking and prodding at the tree produce the predicted responses. Science proving the existing knowledge. However the upper branches of this tree have a top uppermost branch overhanging the adjacent pond . An Adventurous professor is of the creative belief that under special conditions of temperature and water availability such a tree is capable of producing golden looking apples on its uppermost branches if the branches reach at least 100 ft high . The professor walks out on thin ice . He is out of reach of the main trunk near the shore of the pond . He can hear the ice cracking , he cannot reach back for security . He believes , creatively in the presence of a golden apple , and reaches creatively for his belief ........ Was he doing wrong ? Against all odds right as he felt the thin ice crack below as he reached for the golden apple that did in fact exist ! Mike

.Yes, But there may be a requirement for a moment of caution here surely . Because we might think we are testing against reality . When in fact our current belief as to " what is real " may in fact NOT BE REAL .( or correct ,at this moment ) .As we may just be harbouring an understanding which is not quite right , currently ? I know that sounds a bit convoluted , but , when pioneering for ' possible new understanding ' , there is not much firm ground to stand on around you , if you are looking for something ' New ' ! A bit like ' venturing out on thin ice '. Mike

ALL . Oooh ! . I can feel there is something there in the last three posts ! But I am not sure I properly understand what is being said . Are you saying " you don't need creativity? If so , I can't see that . Because surely creativity is one of the portals to advancement and the future. Yes I understand that testing and the scientific method is a way to understanding reality. But I had fond ideas that ' creativity ' would lead us to even Greater depths of understanding of New descoveries as to the nature of the Cosmos ? Mike

Yes but how do you measure creativity , that you may give it a value when you test it ? Mike

.I think a little bit more on the ' STRESS TENSOR/ ' s , would help me expell my ghosts . Not so much in mathmatical terms but in language or analogy form , would be absolutely great if you could Mordred. Then maybe , I can be put down to rest . ( for a little while at least ) . I don't suppose I am the only person who has struggled with this particular aspect of ' space time ' . Mike

.So you are sort of saying ' something else provides the STRESS TENSOR . And if it is set up by whatever , it becomes a Quantum Field , which has its own characteristics of Quantum Field Theory , which might well include. DIV , GRAD , and CURL. So in my case with radio waves and presumably including light waves , the div, grad and curl describes the state of curled space provided by the originating photon emission . And with gravity waves I presume something massive doing a bit of a move provides its own perculiar Div , Grad. And Curl . I sort of get a better picture now , if this is it . I suppose the tensor is just one of the components . I still have this slight disquiet about ' what quite is being ' tensed, curved, curled etc . If we say it is the geometry of space that is being affected . I will just have to accept that. I just have a slight , shadowy ' niggle ' Mike

May be you were not in on it , Eric . I will need to dig out the topic . It was probably to do with Gravity and the nature of Space , so that gravity waves get propogated across space . And I was asking ? What was the substance of space , such that waves could be propagated. I think I was 'left for dead ' , when I could not get my head round , that there was nothing there in ' space time ' .,unless you are saying the same . But it sounds like you and Maudred are saying that space time can be ( Div, Grad, and Curled ) . Or have I got it wrong a second time ? Mike

. Join the Club ! Though I think the Club membership , for this particular Club we are discussing here, is low in numbers ! However it is rather fun , if you can accept failing to come up with the goodies most of the time . But get such a buzz when you get it right ! Mike " Imagination Flows " .... I like that phrase , can I borrow it ?.. It sounds rather comforting , like floating down river on a warm bed of flowing ' Chocolate ' ... Great fun !

. I must say I do like your comment (+1 ) . You sound just the sort of Philosopher , that I am looking for , to epitomise what got left behind , when science took such a ' Hard Right ' turn into the annals of ( observation- model - maths - prediction - test - verification ) , and no room for anything which does not fit this strict sequence . Keeping this stance up to today . Not that the above named sequence is wrong . It's just that it is NOT a whole picture of Nature . There is far more to be had . I am looking to find a descriptor and code of practice which could describe a philosophical practice which offers science an additional new route into the future. This route I beleive was followed , in principle , by many of the pioneers of science in the very early years as illustrated above in Greece ( post # 18 ) , and up through middle history , but has been forgotten in recent years, where absolute precision is sought at the expense of ' ploughing new furrows' . It makes a refreshing change to hear your comments . Thank you . Mike

Why did you guys not bring this up when I was asking about the content and/or the structure of Space . Painfully I was taught DIV , GRAD , CURL . At Uni a couple of times as part of trying to get to grips with Maxwells equations and his proof around light and its speed. When I brought it up . Then you were leading me along the line " there is no content , to space ! ". You all said , or words to that effect. There must be something 'there' , if you can do an operation on it , like Div, Grad , and Curl ? Mike

.Hi ! Nice to see your ( sun image ) again . Mike

.That might be a trifle blunt ! Most things even in hard core science have ' assumptions at their core. ' It surely means ' we are aware of the assumptions at all times ' We can therefor proceed cautiously , like a child of a parent . Aware they have a parent at home , even though they are away at university ' out of sight ' . The question then remaining " what is the mind or attitude" of the parent that I as a student should honour , my remote parent . Mike

. 1. You are assuming that the existence of a god is the same as the existence of an after-life. I think that is fairly standard stuff. If one gets far enough as to think that there must have been some very clever footwork, for ( a) the starry universe to have been made by some really clued up intelligent very ,very higher life forms . Then the step to ( b ) a very complex life form ( US ) with brains as clever as computers , if not cleverer. Would be within their capability to seed the earth , by one means or other. Both for a life as we know it as well as a resurrected life if we are unfortunate enough to die . ( which we do ' at the moment ' ) 2,3,4 You are assuming that any god would be interested in humans. 3. You are assuming that any god would do more than create the universe, but would continue to be involved in it. 4. You appear to be assuming that this is how believers would also think Yes I think if ' they went to that extent , ' I am sure they would be interested and follow developments . I think the 'misused free will ' of Humans , has a lot to do with its deterioration . As regards ' believers' . I am sure a lot of people have a lot of different ideas . It's a pity we find it so awkward talking about it nowerdays . Maybe people are embarrassed .think it makes them look soft . No such thing , it is probably one of the most important ' issues ' of our time. As long as we can talk without gunning each other down ! ( symbolically and literally ) Mike Ps there are a few indicators , that now is the time for a change over !

.Well I am not so sure you have interpreted my ' other thread ' as you say , ' correctly ' If the full story is fathomed . Then 'Civiisation that has got itself into a pickle ' will end hopefully, in its present form , and a New body of Mankind will arise that is more harmonious and settled. . Maybe soon ! A world wide Paradise, in time . As the ' man ' at his death said . " you will be with me in Paradise ". Then they both died , at the hands of the Roman Empire . Now if that counts for anything . There it is " Future World Wide Paradise " promised , by some means or other . Starting off, Any time soon! Mike

. I can see where the ' Chink ' emanates from ! . Looking back at the early birth of Philosephy in Greek times . You can see how science soon grew out of this region of endeavour and thinking . It's now possible to uncover where the split came from directionless ' philosophical like ' thought , and rigorous scientific, investigative , observational based , mathmatical orientated , model based SCIENCE , started to split off . Mike

.this live performance .... " Tell me it's just not true ". Live performance ,In concert , Blackpool . Two male singers it's excellent ! Brings tears to your eyes Mike

. Is there not a case for one ( type of consideration) , will assist and contribute in some way to the other. And visa versa ( the other way round ) ? I am sure I could drum up an example where ' the mechanics of a scientific process ' is less effective , or less efficient , or less whatever , if only the mechanics are considered. However that a greater efficiency , or performance increase, or whatever increase , is found if , say a sprinkling of ' art, poetry, religion ' are incorporated in the overall ENHANCED MACHINE ( which science alone would not normally have considered ? ) Mike

.Although it is possible to feel belief in a God is not popular . Statistics show that still 75% of the world population profess to believe in the existence of a God . See :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism I must admit I was a little surprised at that statistic . Maybe people are taking the safe bet .! Although there appear to be large differences in statistics found for different regions of the world . Even at its worst it still ends up as 50% beleive in a God . So 50. % of the human race , are eligible to think about it , and ( could ) believe in some form of intervention from a higher power . Namely God . ( as in ' God help us ' ) Mike

. I am not sure if I should make a comment here , as I am probably viewed as one of the offenders here. I do not do any deliberate attempt to muddle anything . However , I do have a strong belief that when the range of thinking Philosiphers over a few Centuaries Found themselves confronted with some very useful , repeatable models , which had some mathematical content . They went on to make predicted use out of this newly acquired modelling . This built up over the years to become the ' hard core science we are currently familiar with . ( and growing daily ) . What I personally think , is that over these long years , the creative , art, feeling , and many other ' soft systems ', got left , forgotten , buried , in the annals of time as , because of their ' woolly ' characteristics , got more and more marginalised . And in some respects got viewed as almost an ' enemy .' To highly predictive science. I think there IS some lost worth and I would even go so far to say , we may be missing a 'BIG TRICK ' by marginalising this 'SOFT ' whatever it is . I would like to give it a name , but it has a habit of comming from the ' top down ' rather than the ' bottom up ' . In other words detail with strict formulae perhaps provide more reliable answers than .. ( watch your words Michael ) , atmospherically , mood , cloudy effects that can be easily passed by as not relevant . I don't pretend to know the full impact of this on our future understanding of the cosmos , but I have the fondest beliefs that there is something (. QUITE PROFOUND IN WHAT I AM POINTING OUT ) ! I think it is on a par with one man looking at all the atomic structure , and the botanist looking in great detail at the reason behind the behaviour of plants etc , To get meaning to everything . And another man looking at the clouds , atmosphere and space objects like stars and galaxies to give the answers to the meaning and profundity of the universe . They come from different approaches and yet they probably are BOTH VALID APPROACHES for different aspects of the same Cosmos . ( Stand back Michael and watch all hell break loose ) Mike

. O.k. Then forget " the end of civilisation as we know it " . It seems an extra ordinary coincidental Time , that civilisation seems to have BEGUN on the mid ground running from the HELLESPONT /CONSTANTINOPLE / ISTANBUL in the west to the CASPIAN SEA on the east ( including SYRIA) . As well as the YEMEN on the south , to Way up near to AZERBAIJAN/ ARMENIA/ UPPER IRAN in the North. And we appear to have gone full circle , spreading in every direction across the Globe . Now , here we are returning to the seat of where civilisation started to The present time , " when all sorts of people are beating the living day lights out of the inhabitants of this whole region , one way or another ( including all the indescribably precious Historic artefacts of this Early Historic Time ) like they did to the library at ALEXANDRIA mid way through historic times . Surely this must be indicative of ' something ' . Especially as many ethnic people beleive in some form of a Return . Mike

. Here is a ( history in a nutshell , ) scan . From the start in ( UR of the Middle East ) Sumarians , through Seafarers, Egypt , Persians, Greeks, Romans , Dark Ages, SeaFareing Nations, U.K.USA and ALL. Coincidentally we have ended up , Back in the Middle East . ( Fighting ) ! Note the reflections at the bottom of the picture . ( perfect coincidental reflection . ) Note also the blank black area immediately following Decline of the Roman Empire. The Dark Ages fell upon Civilisation . We could have felt then it was an end of Civilisation . However there was much more to come , as we have seen. I am suggesting this really is , or could be ..........? The Impending End to (Civilisation -as we know it ). We never learn ' If we don't' like something / somebody - We go and bray the living day lights out of it / them . ' ( there is another way .as member DrP mentioned in post # 99, on previous page of this ' thread' ). Mike Ps . No (-1) please . This is the Lounge.

. Yes , but the same source , for the start of civilisation , might well choose the time for the end of this current civilisation . ( A.) If we are inclined the extra terrestrial way , namely we have had a previous visit by space travellers , who seeded life . Well it's time for their return , as we are getting into a stressful situation . ( B.) If we are inclined the biblical way . The story goes civilisation was started by intervention , seeding at previously described injection East of Tabriz in upper Valley near Caspian Sea . An interim visit made 2000 years ago resulting in assassination . Not before a prediction was given of a future return with a new administration . " about now " . When the current conditions would prevail . ( C.) If we go the ' total chance ' route , by blind , spontaneous life , only evolutionary pressures being responsible for human life and civilisation . Well then we are on our own . May be we need to speed up the space program. As regards ( my hat ) I prefer : well done , turned once , served with tomatoe ketchup ! Thanks ! Mike . Well you are of course , right , we have never really learned , how to administer the whole Earth in a responsible manner. We are leaving it a bit late in the day for getting things in order! It will be very interesting to see , which way things ' Go ' in the next few years . Which way do you think it will go . And which way will have the best chance of working ? Mike Ps .. TWIMC. Why the. ( -1 ) . We are attempting to have a sensible , interesting discussion , here ! Why spoil it ?

.Yes , I beleive there are coincidental scenarios , both by the subject matter of ' the world then ' described in RHOL's project , which is presented at great length and detail in his book. And today's World. The first scenario is that of the detailed position for the start of human civilisation , Geographically . With articulate accuracy , he traces the Sumarian people's civilised evidence of its existence back from its later prominence in lower reaches of the Tigres and Euphrates rivers , back up to the source of these two and another two rivers and their encumbrance civilised evidence in tablets of cuneiform writing . He reaches the valley near Edin , east of TABRIZ. Reasoning by comparative evidence, that this was the place of the START of human civilisation. The second coincidental scenario is that civilisation on Earth appears now, to have reached the END of civilisation ( as we know it ) . Over the last 100 years we have chewed up by War, resources plundering , pollution , overgrowth of land usage , and a hundred and one ways , that a 'stepped- back ' look at what we have done in those last hundred years , deserves a serious ' RAIN CHECK ' as to ' how are we going to get out of this state of affairs ? The coincident being that comming from out of those ,recent 100 years , we are back at the same arena , namely ' THE MIDDLE EAST '. The last few wars have been in and involved with ' THE MESOPOTAMIAN TIGRIS AND EUPHRATES VALLEYS. AND EVEN WORKING UP THROUGH ( ASSYRIA and ALEPPO ) AND BEYOND . ' If ' one looks ' at this area on a World Map , it is not far off TABRIZ to the North and where The Garden of Eden was situated at the start . * Ps If this is not a coincidence ' I will eat my hat ' * ps for the sake of this argument , I think it is fitting to rule out odd findings of bones in caves , dotted , here and there , we are talking about Civilised Mankind , ' writing at great length mankind ', mushrooming growth of population , civilisation , and vast 'archeological evidence mankind' . We are not talking about monkeys in trees , we are talking about , builders , farmers , traders ' enscribers ' as a start to civilisation . The evidence is vast in the Middle East region . The evidence is even vaster for today's civilisation . If external visitors arrived at the earth in 6000 years from now , there would be no doubt where this civilisation was 6000 years before ( everywhere on earth ) . And where they were 6000 years before that ( Mesopotamia - the Middle East ) . Is that not a coincidence , or do I have to eat my hat ? MIKE