Mike Smith Cosmos

. . Interesting ! .By the way what's SFAIK ? Do you mean the calcium will dissolve in internal juices ? If things go in solid. How do they get in? Through a mouth of some sort ? I've heard the early Cambrian creatures were tubes with teeth ! .

. . Can they take minerals on board other than through water ( sea water ). IE not dissolved chemicals but solid material ? . If NO , then all calcium would need to be dissolved calcium carbonate before ever it could be used by living organisms ? Is that so ? My chemistry is not so hot. but if most calcium is calcium carbonate ( thats Ca C O3 Yes ?) Then there must be a lot of CARBON tied up in "them their Cliffs " ..

. Sounds a bit complicated, but if that's how things in biology occur I will have to take your word for it. I was expecting something like my old 'O' level biology: with amoeba slithering across towards something and a (contractile vacuole ) or something moving toward the edge of the cell wall and opening around what was there, and then engulfing it. I must say I thought it was a bit too simplistic at the time. I wonder how Ediacara Enigmata absorbed a calcium compound ? Through its top surface from the sea, or from its underbelly against the rock or turbid slime. ? May be what you describe or at least what wikapedia describes occurred at a much earlier more primitive time when there were only rocks, before single cells developed ? Cytoplasmic calcium.pdf

While undertaking a small piece of research within the confines of the Earth Science Forum , I have been exploring the history of Calcium from Space Nebula to the White Cliffs of Dover. I hit a tricky bit when I was investigating how very early forms of Bacterial, Planktonic, Algae or other Precambrian forms of life obtained calcium from the actual presence of various calcium compounds found in the Oceans and Earths crust, particularly, but not necessarily only , within the period 4,500 MA to 550 MA ( MA Million years ago ). In their wisdom , one of the advisors suggested I try the " Biology " forum. So here I am , asking the question. . By what mechanism/s did they or do the current critters do it ?

. Epilogue. Having now reflected on Ophiolites' extract and tried to digest Wickepedia and its complicated explanation of meteorites and their twin sister Chondrites which are unmodified by melting, version of meteorites; It would appear that the very old Calcium compound Chondrules along with their companion Aluminium counterpart can be found in light grey silicates as white spheres. So the substance falling to the early earth might have been more Grey and white, perhaps looking more like high speed falling grit or dirty snow. I am sure it tasted just as delightful to early forms of life. .

. In connection with your delightful comments together with the extract provide by Ophiolite and John Cuthber, I have now built up an image that I have committed to an artists impression. As I look at it now in front of me, I gaze across a few thousand miles of seething mantle, almost like a world full of Deckan Steps lava flow. There are some highpoints as subducting recent crust chunks are dragged down with the general convecting mantle. Some is left on the surface as the infant continental crust starts to form from assorted chunks. The sky with little atmosphere as we know it is lit by the neighboring sun. The atmosphere has a hue from several colours as it catches various elemental contents merging into the blackness of space. The vault is studded beyond belief with orbiting mini asteroids, much like the rings of saturn. Because of their near proximity to each other and the earth, frequent collisions have caused a sea of meteorites to be moving this way and that across the sky. There is a general descending of these meteorites in waves toward the surface, but not with the speed or burning trail of our current experience of such objects. The sky is white with them due to their Calcium compound content, almost like falling high speed snow. Their proximity to earth and the sparse atmosphere is responsible for less velocity than todays' meteorites. The surface of the mantle/crust is sprinkled with the condrules like salt, even though not individually visible due to their minute individual size. So the dark brown, red and black pudding mixture, matrix, churns waiting for the next stepping stones up through the aeons ( UK) /eons ( USA) of Pre Cambrian and Phanerozoic time. But in its heart among the silicates are the sprinklings of chondrules containing compounds of CALCIUM ready to be later absorbed by bacterial/Algae/Plankton and utilised by other Cambrian onwards critters to create their own calcium based shells, backbones and crustaceans. Thus became the fossil trail of the whole Phanerozoic Aeon/Eon to the present day. Some to die by the ton and become the White Cliffs of Dover. .

Great, Now you have got me investigating Meteorites and their Calcium compound content. ( More things to think about , to Draw and Paint ) I love it. Thanks . " My God " I have just looked up Chondrules in Wickapedia " Its all full of stars " Said Richard Bowman in "2001 a space Odessy " The images of Chondrules are mind blowing .

No, you did not get my question wrong. Yes , this has been very useful and spot on the time scale I was looking at. I am using this information , melded with other research I am gaining from various books and conversations. I had a conversation today with a retired teacher of chemistry who endorsed what you said. He was part of an Art Painting Group, that I am also part of. I immediately put the ideas to to Paint. Today I painted an image of calcium compounds descending to the infant earth. The earths crust was just being made by the churning of magma in the upper mantle. The various calcium compound dust, particles, agglomerates , were mixing in with the mantle like cream in a dark red pudding. Some of the calcium compounds were being scraped off the top of the mantle due to their low density and immediate presence on the mantle top. Thus was sown and shown some of the white calcium based compounds , ready for dissolving in the future ocean as Calcium Carbonate as well as the injesting by future life and depositing as sedimentary rock. This glimpse of the earth of between 4,500- 4,000 million years ago is a thrill to behold. With your help and that of iDevonian, john Cuthbert and Ophiolite, as well as a book I am currently reading by Richard Fortey ( Life an unauthorised Biography 1998 ), I have built up this image. Maybe it is not quite right , but to me it has filled a missing picture. Now I need to build up the timeline from this mineral soup to the Cambrian- Pre-Cambrian border. .

Yes. Thank for your comments. I am reasonably ok. on the production of all the elements in both Sun sized stars up to the element Iron , and then from stars 10-20 times larger than the sun producing the remaining elements amongst others before and during their supernova end. Its what happens next from being exploded, distributed elements in dust/gas clouds .... to .... earth mantle/core that I am at a bit of a loss. . From the other direction namely plunging down through the aeons of 100's of millions of years through the various periods. I found myself wondering where all the calcium was coming from, to find itself in the white cliffs of dover, limestone, chalk etc. I sot of overshot and I have been looking down around EUKARYOTES and I guess your Cyanobacteria which presumably are the slime living bacteria in mats a) producing oxygen in vast quantities to allow the rest of us to breath and b ) algae ( not quite sure what they were up to .. more photosynthesis and oxygen ?? I have then headed up from deep within the Pre-cambrian times groping around like some burrowing slime looking for calcium. As I approached the Pre-cambrian/cambrian boundary I had an interlude with ediacara biota.... extermination......... then BINGO ...there it was CAMBRIAN creatures busy like stink taking hold of CALCIUM by the ton . They were making themselves Backbones, shells, protective backs all from CALCIUM. With their new found protective coatings they were winning the war on everything else. We are still doing it. OOps I must take some more calcium pills. So there were all the fossils calcium shells being converted into fossils while the soft bodied Pre-cambrian life was leaving barely a message to later life like us. However I still have the problem as to what the form of calcuium was, that the cambrians were eating, maybe they were eating the Pre-cambrians like ediacara biota. I have the feeling that its the bacteria that absorb CaCO3 fix the carbon and give off some O. So if that is the case how did exploding Calcium get to CaCO3 in the mantle/crust ? Presumably the Black underslime in the bacterial mats is the CARBON, the Oxygen is for animals to breath. Also shell, crusty, backboned cambrians get plenty of calcium in the pre-cambrian species that survived. Perhaps you can fill in the gaps or my wrong understanding. All good fuel for my paintings. I have recently painted two trilobites, an Edicara biota and the entire geological chronology from Precambrian to Quaternary, illustrated. I will try to photograph and upload soon. .

. I was rather hoping for a wider picture of what happened. The question was stimulated when I was trying to find the source of the element Calcium, which was responsible for the white cliffs of Dover and all the copious other sedimentary outcrops, and strata which have Calcium as their ultimate source. I appreciate that various shell creatures etc are in the chain but I was looking for the chemical source. I have been on a hunt through the life line back via pre-cambrian and have spent the last day trying to get to grips with oxygen generation via stromatolites, as mats of bacteria. I then thought well , where did the oxygen come from ? Its unlikely it fell to earth at the start, but came through some form of oxide pre produced in outer space. So did all the elements come from molecules of various elements, like H2O or water/ice /vapour. So was calcium carbonate produced in space ? And what about all the rest ?

- We know roughly what we have today, at least in the earth crust. But in what form was the EARTH's matter at the formation of the swirling ball that became the EARTH . Was it in element form, molecules, compounds, mineral, crystal, grit, dust , lump, slush, slime, ice , gas ? .

Uum ! I need to think on that one. ................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ The initiation of the decay I believe comes from the weak atomic force of the electro-weak force. Which is random but within the outside half life of 4,500,000,000 years. ( Because we don't know anything about years on the inside of the atom ) Which although the average half life is predictable , the individual emission of a radio active decay is not predictable. So even this outside change is not a reliable time duration . Also I am not personally sure what actually initiates the decay from within the Electro-weak force. We need an atomic scientist to tell us that one. If however we had only ever known the inside of this particular Uranium atom, we could not see the sun, the earth rotating, the galaxy rotating, or anything else for that matter. We would see a decay happen now any again with no regular (interval ) Would we have a need for time or any concept of time. Time long or short with relation to what ? I know this is a bit philosophical. But we are discussing this in the very actual quantum subject of ( space and time ). While inside the electro- weak force/ particles there is likely to be some form of probability issue. ( not being a statistician ) I am not sure what drives the initiation of the decay ! It is this aspect of the relationship of probability to time or just ( 1 in 100,000,000,000 ) that fires off the next decay ? Don' t know that bit. Is there some internal clock that somehow tosses a coin that only comes down heads 1 in 100,000,000,000 times or what ? Or is there some other quantum random process that fires the decay ? I need to think , research, and think again ! ..................................................Does Plank time come in operation here, acting as some universal time clock , working within the atom at the quantum level of things ?..... Don't know ! . .

I am still trying to track down all this calcium. the nearest I've got, which may not be the case as it sounds all a bit vague. Everything was mantle apart from the core at the falling together of matter to bring the earth about . The first crusts appeared as a sort of scum of the lighter elements. Namely the dense heavy elements like iron and gold and uranium sunk to the center and lighter elements like silicon, aluminium , manganese, carbon bubbled to the top. These latter ones became the scum on top which became the first continental plates as well as ocean plates. As far as I can make out the ocean plates were , or included heavier minerals and thus the lighter scum became the continental plates. As the ocean plates subducted under the lighter continental plates a certain amount of scrapings rose up onto and became combined with the continental plates. Quite what the journey of the calcium bearing minerals was before they got into the critter cycle I am still not quite sure. Maybe in the scrapings. Maybe in the water. Maybe in the magma. Before the calcium could enter the critter cycles, the masses of calcium or minerals including calcium must have existed somewhere. But where ?

The subject of time and its connotation of passing of time, seems to conjure up the Idea of change. The earth turning once , a day of approx 24 hours of time . Of the change in seasons , four being a change of one circuit of the sun , being a year , or approx 365 and a quarter days. Somebody somewhere sorted changes which were agreed to be hours , minutes and seconds. And of course we can go Bigger like the milky way turning once every 1-2 million years. or go smaller like so many milliseconds, microseconds , nanoseconds being a thousandth of a second, a millionth of a second, and an English billionth of a second. probably those last two loose identification. Nonetheless they are used in modern electronics, i pads, mobile phones etc. Because of demands for precision now the Cesium atom is used as a time piece . With global positioning systems accurate times are mandatory. So we have and do live out here in the changing periods of time , and love every minute of it. (oops). Now lets get inside the atom at the quantum level. Maybe we don't see or experience any of those things just mentioned ( apart from the cesium atom clock , which I may have to leave out of my argument, so as not to make things confusing. So what sort of time do we have in here, Quantum time but whats that. Relative time, relative to what because we are inside the atom. No time as we are used to knowing it ? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I have been thinking on these matters over the last few days, and I am relentlessly drawn back to the area or the threshold of many of these quantum happenings. It would appear unless I am mistaken that the symbolic LID of the box that Schroenigers cat lurks within , lies just outside the outer shell of electrons of an atom. All be it that the outer shell is no more than a high energy band, one would suspect that this must have some form of proximity to the atom in question. So close,and yet we can still be happy we are outside the box and the cat is quite ok being potentially in both states within the box. The difficulty arises when we open the lid, where we trigger a series of happenings that seem to obey the strange quantum happenings that stretch our brains of classical logic. Here the mathematicians step in and come up with a set of equations that work , but are very hard to visualize and understand in real life images. ( So I am told ) . Lets keep the lid closed for a moment. I don't like to be kept out of the 'picture' with my metaphor type brain , so I still try to at least think of myself ( not literally ) but non-the-less as being in some form of wonderland where strange quantum things happen ( like Alice in wonderland , quantum Alice that is in side the atom). I have been told that special relativity , will enable this transition. However , as far as I can see, that is still viewing inside the atom , relative to an observer outside the atom. If we are inside , figuratively of course , we are not observing from outside. So what do we see, or feel, by being inside ........Floating about in the quantum world inside the territory of the atom ? ............ How are you so far ....? .

Comment A) I think on the matter of feeding of 7,000,000,000 people. I believe somebody worked out how much each individual would get if all the productive land were divided up equally per person, I think it is approximately 1 hectare or two and a half acres of fertile ground. So I'm sure people could feed themselves on that ( with a family having by proportion more ). So there needs to be a bit of a reorganization somehow. Some simple mechanization ( on a " small is beautiful Basis " Shumacker ). A certain amount of bartering of labor through a simple world currency. Comment B ) Its not that I am unaware of all these people and organisations you have mentioned. But we seem to have all gone to sleep. When I was an angry young man in the 1960's? 1970's . Bob Dylan was singing evocative; people were lying about with flowers in their hair: grown men were streaking with no clothes on : Greenham common women were chaining themselves to railings out side American Air bases. People were marching 'Ban the Bomb' Green peace were sending boats into various Hot spots of challenge. The TV news was full of it. Now where we are potentially facing the next extinction event so I've been told, except this time its not Ediacaran enigmata or the dinosaurs that are facing mass extinctions but this time its Human beings facing it , unless we do something PDQ ( pretty dam quick ). YET The reported news now is all about some Prominent figure misbehaving: high power executives being paid incredible, in fact repugnant amounts of money when they fail in their job description, Afganistan, Banking and financial systems getting in a muddle etc night after night after night. If we look through the Geological history from the supercontinent of Rodinia, through the Supercontinent of Pangaea, on to the Next future supercontinent it is studded with change. Things had to change to adapt to new conditions. Humanity must change radically, an PDQ if it is to adapt and survive. Why do we not here this on the news , night after night , why are not all the other equivalent symptoms of the 60's and 70's not bubbling up. Perhaps we have all gone to sleep.

No I am not trying to be oblivious to all the hard work of all of the scientists , of all of the organisations , of all of the quango's, of all of the political organisations etc who are pouring their lives out into " Playing a harp , while Rome burns " . But who is standing up and saying. Hang about guys we have really got to do something like next week, or next month, or next year, not in a few years when we might have quietly slipped over a " tipping point". Geological history seems to be full of a lot of tipping points, as far as I can see. These seem to precipitate sudden major changes. Our current industrial way of doing things seems to be shoving us ever more quickly to a tipping point. Poor old James Lovelock has been saying this for quite some time, He is now 93 . So yes I think Geology might well have a part in that voice on the river bank above the waterfall . Who is going to be the voice at the waterfalls edge shouting " Go Back to the side , before you go over the waterfall " ?. Why is he or she not on the media NOW . Today in Britain " die Back is sweeping out the ASH tree. Today in Venice the water flowed across the main square. Last week or two the floods came into USA. There is talk of a sunspot cycle all time low activity. This summer Britain did not have one. I was in Italy all summer and every, thing was burned to a crisp, water tables were disappearing , fires were raging . Who is going to say something ! Hey guys we need to go to higher ground ! (together with a few other things, like stop breeding so much , stop using oil and coal, start planting , start radically changing our way of life, start using all this science to provide everyone with the necessities of life etc etc etc etc etc ). . .

So what you are saying, which is what I thought must be the case is : That all the calcium to make all the clay, chalk , limestone, white cliffs of Dover and all the other cretaceous strata everywhere and any present in any limestone or otherwise calcium orientated rock , before going through the critter mode, must have been somewhere in the mantle all mixed up in the minerals you mentioned above. Is that so. ? So then it dissolved in the sea water or fresh water by erosion and got converted via the critters in the fullness of time to what we now see in the various strata. Is that about it. ? .

I had the feeling this was the answer. But I still struggle a bit with where do the critters get the Calcium Carbonate or calcite from in the first place. It must be in the ocean, I would suspect in a dissolved form or particle form. So the calcium must be in solution or in some form in the water. So where did that come from? If we say from past sediment, well, that must at some stage have come from somewhere. Where ? And in what form ? .

When looking at Great White Cliffs, stacks or other limestone outcrops a question arises . What proportion of what one sees, comes about by precipitation from the ocean water without living intervention? Is this origin purely chemical ( NOT of Plant or Animal origin ) Half, 10 % 75 % 2% or what ever ? Clearly a lot comes from living origin; Coral, Plankton , Algae and other calcite ooze or slime, but what proportion is from once NON living origin ? Calcium as an element must have come from an exploding star at some stage. Did it go molecular while still in space , or was there some form of processing in the earth mantle or core ? I believe this has a relevance to A) Production /Reduction of Oxygen in deep history and B) Increase/Decrease of Carbon today