Mike Smith Cosmos

If various OLOGIES are looking out for various aspects of world systems. EG Geology looking at the structure of the earth and its long history; Geography looking at the surface systems, Biology looking out for living things, etc etc Who specifically has the discipline that looks out for not just climate, but the whole shebang ! Ocean, air, rocks, life , climate, minerals , sea and all the interlinking systems that keep the Earth as a working system. Is there a degree course with ensuing professors who make it their business to get a handle on the WHOLE EARTH SYSTEM/SYSTEMS ?

Did I say something fundamentally WRONG or has this all been covered before . I always thought this wave particle duality issue was part of the Richard Feynman " If you understand Quantum Mechanics then you have got it wrong " conflict. .

I do believe in an holistic approach to world issues. I am currently trying to elevate the Geology corner of the whole spectrum, both in my own mind and others. Having experience an absolute absence of books on geology both in the library and book shops, I feel a dialogue on the subject could only do good. Having spent a lifetime working within the science area of physics , electronics , mechanics and engineering I feel slightly guilty that I have contributed is some small measure to the biased emphasis in engineering , electronics and the automotive sector, all of which seems to be giving us, or contributing to world problems. As recompense for my contribution I wish to do my little two penny worth towards highlighting a subject area ( Geology ) which might , help my childrens future and my childrens' children future . As it happens , I am already in the UK. ( Devon ) trudging around the well furnish geological sites of Devon , Dorset, Somerset and Cornwall as well seeing all the lovely programs that do highlight these Geological areas. Bring them on more I say. And some !

I must say I have noticed often an aggressive stance given to new ideas offered within " THE SCIENCE FORUMS ". This does appear to be driven by a scientific method approach applied in its strictest form of EVIDENCE and MATHS coupled with a little rank pulling. Although I understand this approach, coming from an engineering background, there were times in my design career when rather than calculate I would take a " trial and error " approach, saying I wonder what will happen if I try "this component " oops try another to see if there is any improvement. This has often led to an improved design. This technique is sort of used in genetic engineering where computer programs design things that we would not even think of, by an iterative and change and generation advantage . Is there not a case for research scientists not chilling out a bit , and let a bit of fresh air, in by taking a "Socratic method" of a series of questions and answers led to a logical conclusion ( by thesis countered by anti thesis ). This is a good method of generating new ideas and propositions ( ie Speculations) which more rugged and rigorous treatment by other scientists of specialized bent and mathematical prowess can "bust a gut on " while the thinkers busy themselves with potential new ideas. Surely one is free to state " this is just a possible idea " and not state " this is proven fact and here is my evidence " Provided statements are framed in this way, would it not lighten up the forum to more debate which by definition is surely what a FORUM is " a meeting or medium for the OPEN discussion of subjects of public interest "

Geology is a study of the EARTH and as far as I am aware, and a fairly new science 1750 to today approximately. Although I suppose if one places Galileo as the start of modern science and experiment, that is not so different. But I believe that with modern radio active dating methods, and magnetic ocean sea floor measurements as they analyse tectonic plate movement, Geology has been able to get a more accurate date on artifacts and samples, thus being able to get a real handle on the strata under our feet as well as continental movements, and thus a clearer picture is now possible The Earth is our home, and thus as any husband or householder , needs to know, he/she needs to get a good handle on the workings of the various electrical, plumbing and in this 21st century information technology systems if he is to keep the home running . So surely our priority knowledge should in in the workings of the Earth ( namely Geology ) So perhaps a new initiative to make Geology one of the essential subjects in school , is called for. Also perhaps television program makers should be given incentives to produce more programs on Easily understood and interesting Earth workings subjects within the area of Geology and many/multi-science subjects. Perhaps other initiatives could be developed ( not just on global warming , although that is an obvious area of concern) as global warming is only one of the systems needing monitoring. To keep the idea of a householder going :- Global warming is like the householder finding " oh the central heating system seems to be malfunctioning as the thermostat reads 20 degrees centigrade but its very hot in the house at the moment" Perhaps the householder has a dripping tap, no hot water, cannot get on the internet, a damp wall, drafts whatever . There are many other symptoms appearing on the world stage at the moment having their different origin in different earth systems ( Population, crime, health, mineral supplies to mention only a few ) Many of these can be viewed better if not all in a geological context.) So .... ?

The description of probability waves being related to all particles whether very small like neutrinos or very large like the earth under the wave particle duality, appears to make the wave aspect relevant at neutrino size but not relevant at earth size. ( De Broglie ) This I understand relates to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle being currently discussed in the Quantum Physics Forum . One aspect of probability has connotations of " one moment here" probably or " one moment in TIME " there probably. IF ( SPECULATION ) we were to take ourTime Out of the aspect of probability, then surely the particle would or could be everywhere that the probability waveform allows. ( Shroeneger ) Which appears to be what happens sometimes. ( eek sometimes is a contradictory idea ). Say elecron shells/energy levels and quantum tunneling. Has the idea of probability not the idea of possibility. When we are dealing with quantum particles, :- Then this is not our reality ie not in our time , but rather :- In the quantum time and thus quantum reality. ( what ever quantum time is ? Timeless ? Relativistic time ? No time ? whatever ?). and ( whatever quantum reality is for that matter ? ) Then when we OBSERVE or some system of our reality observes the particle, it becomes part of our time and our reality. Thus the Probability wave collapses and the small particle has to adopt an allowable position in our reality. Leaving particles to be free in their quantum world , well , all over the place all the time. ( whose time theirs or ours ? ) ( Maybe they are not in any time that we can relate to ). Could this be what is happening in the double slit experiment when we observe the photon or electron after coming through the slit and the wave aspect collapses and the particle is in one place or the other, whereas unobserved the wave aspect does not collapse and the particle ( electron or photon ) goes or appears to go through both slits and cause an interference wavelike pattern ? . WHAT SAY YOU ? .

Good one I like it!

[quote name=Mike Smith Cosmos' Essay. Athena. Ophiolite. iDevonian Sorry my last post got all scrambled for some reason or other. I have tried to unpick it and repeat it without the scramble. As scientists we are, from time to time, to make observations and look for patterns that we can use. We can make theories and predictions on which to make further tests ;so as to prove or disprove the theory. A geological series of patterns that geologists have and are observing are :- That many changing aspects of the whole geological system are cyclical ;Namely that no matter how long the cycle might be, ;say ten seconds for the crest of a wave on the ;sea to rise and fall and rise again ;or the 10,000,000,000 year (10 billion year ) for the accumulation of atoms into dust particles from and exploding supernova, to build up into a solar system including the earth, and go through the whole geological time of the earth, until the sun dies as a red giant vaporizing the earth in the process and thus distributing the self same atoms to form dust in the universe AGAIN ; .This observation was muted by Jan Zalasiewicz in his recent book " The Planet in a pebble ;2010ISBN 978 0 19 964569-5 I always find it hard to get my head around Geological times like a million years or 10 billion years.I tried to get some handle this morning on 10 billion years and thought in terms of a single rotation of the milky way galaxy being of the order of 1 or 2 million years ;say , the million years ;being 1000 times the time back to 1066 when William the C ; invaded England and 10,000 Revs ( being the spin of a fast motor per second ) , thinking in terms of 10,000 revolutions of the milky Way Galaxy ;=;approximately ;10,000,000,000 years .Ok. So as Zalasiewicz says in his book ( quoted above ) A single plankton dies, having digested a few atoms of whatever and sinks to the bottom of the ocean , gets covered in turbid mud, gets absorbed by microbes, rots, becomes part of the Silurian seabed 460 million odd years ago , becomes part of a stratified, folded rock layer , appears as some welsh slate in Wales U.K , Chipped out by a welsh miner 100 years ago , been on someones house for 50 years , the slate discarded a few years ago, recently eroded and back down the local river to the ocean some horrific ;number of years later from where it came from roughly. Probably these atoms having been moved from the plankton's single cell inside, on the surface of the Silurian Sea , down to the ocean bed, the whole tectonic plate at that time being south of the equator, back up to where the UK is now. The whole Eurasian plate having been shoved up here in the northern hemisphere by convection currents in the earths interior mantle; Some journey over ;460,000,000 years ( a mere half a billion years Uk billion ). One hell of a cycle.;There are the Geological cycles ( Just two of them ) .What can we conclude from these geological patterns .I love swimming in the sea and am not intimidated by high waves. If you try to face them head on one gets smashed. Turn and let the wave take you up to its crest ( assuming it has not yet broken , and its a lovely ride. May be there is a Geological lesson to be learned here.Go with the Flow , Sounds a bit Hippy ' ish. Was not intended. However appears to work,( in Geological systems that is) . So why not in our approach to living in the current geological state of the planet. Just how we fit into the geological systems/cycles I am not sure! However what I am sure of is that as an industrial society we have taken some form of wrong turn somewhere along the way. One lesson might be " the bugs go where they need to go to thrive and survive." Maybe there needs to be some form of redistribution of our location.? Soil seems to be the end game of erosion, sediments, rock, folding, erosion , surely we can use and work within this perpetual cycling , while redistributing ourselves to where the soil is ? ( sounds like cities are out, re-population of the country is in. ) ( Cars are out , mini tractors are in ). Hey this is exciting !

Like your Bee model ! As we are talking in analogies and metaphors. I have wrestled in my mind about the Heisenberg uncertainty principle , observer interference, etc. The simple way I have of containing the particle/wave /uncertainty conundrum in my head ( which is obviously not real ) is that "The Things" are like "birds" they fly about , hide places , sing and do their business all over the place in another realm ( the sky ,trees, etc) If you try and pin them down and examine them, they cant fly any more, and probably die on you. If you let them go and do the flying bit ,you don't see them for long and you don't know where they are. Obviously the metaphor breaks down as soon as it starts, but I always need some pictorial model to hang my thoughts on ( only the pure mathematicians seem to be able to abandon visualization and drift quite happily in the realms of number.)

Yes, well I was rather ill for 24 hours after opening the Geology book about the Silurian sea, and smelling this strange old smell which you tell me is bacteria. It was printed in 1868, so I have probably released some dreadful 'Bug' from 1868. If you have some relevant point to offer on geology which requires God and humans and morals and it relates to the subject in hand, then go ahead !

Good info you have at your finger tips. Hope to have something to say soon. Like now!<br><br><b><font size="4">Essay</font></b> <div><b><font size="4"><br></font></b></div><div><b> </b>As scientists we are, from time to time, to make observations and look for patterns that we can use. We can make theories and predictions </div><div> on which to make further tests so as to prove or disprove the theory. </div><div><br></div><div>A geological series of patterns that geologists have and are observing are :-</div><div><b><i><u><font size="4"><br></font></u></i></b></div><div><b><i><u><font size="4"> That many changing aspects of the whole geological system are cyclical</font></u></i></b>.</div><div><br></div><div> Namely that no matter how long the cycle might be, say ten seconds for the crest of a wave on the sea to rise and fall and rise again or the 10,000,000,000 year (10 billion year ) for the accumulation of atoms into dust particles from and exploding supernova, to build up into a solar system including the earth, and go through the whole geological time of the earth, until the sun dies as a red giant vaporizing the earth in the process and thus distributing the self same atoms to form dust in the universe AGAIN . </div><div><br></div><div>This observation was muted by Jan Zalasiewicz in his recent book " The Planet in a pebble 2010ISBN 978 0 19 964569-5</div><div><br></div><div>I always find it hard to get my head around Geological times like a million years or 10 billion years.</div><div>I tried to get some handle this morning on 10 billion years and thought in terms of a single rotation of the milky way galaxy being of the order of 1 or 2 million years say , the million years being 1000 times the time back to 1066 when William the C invaded England and 10,000 Revs ( being the spin of a fast motor per second ) , thinking in terms of 10,000 revolutions of the milky Way Galaxy = approximately 10,000,000,000 years .</div><div><br></div><div>Ok. So as Zalasiewicz says in his book ( quoted above ) A single plankton dies, having digested a few atoms of whatever and sinks to the bottom of the ocean , gets covered in turbid mud, gets absorbed by microbes, rots, becomes part of the Silurian seabed 460 million odd years ago , becomes part of a stratified, folded rock layer , appears as some welsh slate in Wales U.K , Chipped out by a welsh miner 100 years ago , been on someones house for 50 years , the slate discarded a few years ago, recently eroded and back down the local river to the ocean some horrific number of years later from where it came from roughly. Probably these atoms having been moved from the plankton's single cell inside, on the surface of the Silurian Sea , down to the ocean bed, the whole tectonic plate at that time being south of the equator, back up to where the UK is now. The whole Eurasian plate having been shoved up here in the northern hemisphere by convection currents in the earths interior mantle. Some journey over 460,000,000 years ( a mere half a billion years Uk billion ). One hell of a cycle. </div><div><br></div><div>There are the Geological cycles ( Just two of them ) .</div><div><br></div><div>What can we conclude from these geological patterns . </div><div><br></div><div>I love swimming in the sea and am not intimidated by high waves. If you try to face them head on one gets smashed. Turn and let the wave take you up to its crest ( assuming it has not yet broken ), and its a lovely ride. May be there is a Geological lesson to be learned here. </div><div><br></div><div><b><i><u>Go with the Flow</u></i></b> </div><div><br></div><div>Sounds a bit Hippy ' ish. Was not intended. However appears to work,( in Geological systems that is) . So why not in our approach to living in the current geological state of the planet. </div><div><br></div>

Ophiolite and Essay and iDevonian.(sorry ! ) I am reading and trying to digest your fine comments. Yes I am inclined to agree , that rather than leaving things to one scientific discipline , that a multi-discipline approach to dealing with our future development of the world is really a good idea. On your well thought out points ESSAY I have returned from a day in the new Victoria and Albert museum in Exeter Sw England UK. This year a new refurbishment with a run through visual presentation from 400 mya (million years ago) to today. We are privileged in the south west with having Devonian era strata and Silurian era as well as Jurassic era outcrops under our feet. I have recently read about the great build up of turbid mud flows on the ocean crust, organic deposition , and the microbial action in the ocean bottom. The machinery of geological change seems incredible. I need to reflect on your ideas and my experience today in the museum. I will try and add something , when I have reflected on your points. Thanks. P.S. I have read James Lovelocks book " The revenge of Gaia " in 2006 when he wrote it, He predicted that we are on the slippery slope to serious interference with the geological systems and as such we are likely to have Mediterranean over heating and North European cloudy and wet summers. This summer I spent 5-6 months in central Italy. It rained only on two days . The water table ceased to exist under the Gubbio valley. Water lorries were called in 6 times a day all summer to bolster the public water supply. I could only just stand the heat by getting in my swimming pool 4 times a day. I phoned home to the Uk and we were told it has been wet all summer long and regularly they were being told they would have one months rain in one day. And still it rains. I think we need to hurry up with any changes. However I do believe we need to take a longer term look and train our young people to understand the geological mechanisms, that make the machinery of our Earth function , as a matter of top priority. Perhaps we could have "geo-players " as opposed to i players. "Geo transports" as opposed to cars etc etc. Forests take time to grow, Bio systems take time to mature. We need to start our young people to be geo scientists or multi-discipline geo scientists NOW surely.

The sciences of Physics and Chemistry seem to have lead industry to a situation that is putting the worlds systems into a strained condition. Should we possibly be using Geology as a way out of this current state. Perhaps diverting attention more in the direction of how the world was made over the last eons ( 4.5 billion years). And thus learning how humans can best be accommodated within the geological working structure. Could we use a knowledge of Geology in a new active discipline, endeavor and enterprise . This as opposed to using yet more and more effort in the direction of " conventional industry based on physics and chemistry mainly " , as a way to battle our way into the future. Is the current increase in conventional industry world wide not going to put increased strain on the environment and thus make our current position and endevours untenable ? To demonstrate the lack of investment in Geology: I went into a University town yesterday and inquired from a well known Bookshop if they had ANY books on Geology? The answer was not one, but they could order them , but today none. I went into the same city , central library and asked for a book on Geology to do with the Silurian era and they had two books in their basement vaults, one of which I was able to view under reference conditions . It was dated as being printed in 1868. I open the book and a strange stale antique smell came from the pages. Good work, good rock layer drawings.

. GRAVITY: . ELECTRO-MAGNETISM : . THE WEAK NUCLEAR FORCE: ( makes radio activity work ) . STRONG NUCLEAR FORCE : ( Binds Quarks &neutrons & Protons together namely the nucleus of atoms ) . .

Magnetism is derived from electricity ( electrons ) moving, and electricity can be derived from magnetic fields moving or changing state. They do co-exist and so are often spoken of as being derived from the Electro Magnetic force . This electro magnetism being one of the four fundamental forces of nature. .

(1) Guess this must be the relevant point from the Wikipedia link :- "Surfaces described as white owe their appearance to multiple scattering of light by internal or surface inhomogeneities in the object, for example by the boundaries of transparent microscopic crystals that make up a stone or by the microscopic fibers in a sheet of paper. More generally, the gloss (or lustre or sheen) of the surface is determined by scattering. Highly scattering surfaces are described as being dull or having a matte finish, while the absence of surface scattering leads to a glossy appearance, as with polished metal or stone." Wikiipedia Scattering I can get my head round this to some extent, although I am not quite sure what is happening on a photon by photon level. Do the photons get absorbed into a transmission mode and thus the surface appears dark.? (2) The other link speaks about " diffused " light caused by water having roughly the same refractive index as fibre (1.3 , one the other 1.33 ). Am I to understand that "diffusion" is a transmission mode ? Thus the light does not get scattered when wet but is transmitted through the substance, but does get scattered when dry ( thus sort of reflected external light), to some extent? I am a little confused with " diffused".

I have searched . But so far in vain.

Is there or where is there a search engine within Science forum ?

+ A science observation : A dry surface " say Plaster" can appear quite light when dry. ( say light pink or white.) On the addition of wetness , for example water, the hard surface of plaster will turn instantly quite dark. + Question. What does water do at the surface that turns the phenomenon from reflection to absorption ? +

. Has any body any thoughts yet on Neutrino faster than light travel from LHC to Italy. This was headline news yesterday 23/09/2011. They apparently sent some neutrinos from LHC to Italy which arrived at faster than light speed .