Mike Smith Cosmos

. GRAVITY WAVES and the AETHER. The thing that keeps ' popping ' up to do with this subject . Seems to be the difference between ELECTRO-MAGNETIC WAVES and GRAVITY WAVES . And in that respect, I must come back to the difference in the relationship to the MEDIUM of both of these types of waves . ------------------------------------ The medium appears to be the FOUR DIMENSIONAL SPACE (3) - TIME (1) . Could it be that ELECTRO-MAGNETIC WAVES be 3 DIMENSIONAL . ( electro- magnetic x,y (2) -TIME t (1)) And Could it be that GRAVITY/GRAVITATIONAL WAVES be 4 DIMENTIONAL. ( Spacial x,y,z (3) -TIME (1)) ------------------------------------ Of course two of the dimensions or variables in electro- magnetism are not spacial but variations in electric field and magnetic field ? Mike

It is becoming clear that " space -time" , far from being a totally empty void , vacuum . Is constructed, contorted , and analysed by a lot of ' seemingly complex ' geometric shapes. These must reflect in some way the real nature of ' space-time ' .' itself' Without even fully understanding quite how all these , ' manifolds, cylinders, fibres, möbius ' geometric operators come together to describe the nature of space -time , and the interactions by the two different ingredients for waves , (1ST ELECTRO- MAGNETISM and 2nd MATTER and GRAVITY ) . Some things are already clear . 1 . Space - time ..is not ..nothing and 2. Space- time is influential AS A MEDIUM It would 'seem ' ? that things like :- a) Electro magnetic waves( photons of light and radiation ) , travel through the medium of ' space- time ' , whose speed is dictated by ' space time itself ' . . Namely the (characteristic of 'space-time' ) . B) Gravitational waves based on mass and matter , interact in a completely different way with ' the medium of ' space-time ' and so their propagation likely will have far different interaction characteristics , speed and attenuation ? Is that not so ? Mike Ps REPORTED TONIGHT's . BBC! . China hopes to use its soon 'biggest in the world ' radio telescope , in the electromagnetic spectrum . To understand better the nature of " space time " and what is contained therein . Here reported from the BBC :- recent photos of China's Radio Telescope being completed as we speak !

.His example which I remember SIGNIFICANTLY . Was . An amazing show, of shoals of fish , swimming is beautiful but offset unison . One might be tempted to think there was some amazing spooky field working across the shoal amazingly keeping them swimming in offset unison . No such thing . He said . Every fish keeps a rigorous, watchful , attention and response , to its neighbour . If they detect a slightest change in direction or speed by their neighbour . They respond nearly ( not quite) instantly . The EFFECT. Is this offset ( time wise ) shimmering amazing shoal dance. Response to Neighbour , repeated almost instantly , across the whole shoal . Not an overarching field . At least that was his explanation when he was alive a number of years ago . Maybe the same things happens with flocks of birds ? Or even the universe with gravity , and electro-magnetism , for that matter? Who knows? Mike

. Dissaray Well , I could be persuaded to agree with you about Gravity and wether it is an actual force or not . I must say ! During this discussion , I have been musing , how a great mass , like the earth, could do something to a small area ( where I am currently existing ) can be influenced so as to make it reasonably difficult for me to even walk up a slope , just 2 meters high. Right here , one step in front of another. All I could come up with in my mind ( listening to all the curvature discussion etc ) , is that somehow with all that local concentrated mass , as opposed to me out in the open . That the mass is either pushing other movable stuff out of the way , by shear ,occupying the area below me . And the net result is this curvature , which my mass does not push much mass out of the way . So I am drawn to follow this curvature which is downward ,generally . I have felt the difference to when I do not change height at all ( very minute effort , just swinging legs alternatively . ) whereas if the slope just goes up by a few inches over each meter forward , I have to exert a reasonable quantity of effort to keep going up those few inches every meter forward. ( all because of this curvature ) . Sort of makes vague sense, rather than an invisible force coming out from the centre of the earth pulling you down ! I think ? Richard Feynman was heard to say once , :- "everything is happening right next to you , right there , not from a distance ." Profound ? Mike me

. I agree with you all . I will go and sit in a corner and beat myself with thin bamboo canes of half an hour as penance for my disgraceful statements about ' mathmatical abstractions ' When you return from your transformed , abstracted state. Can you do me the favour , of coming over to my ' penance corner , where I will be coming ,more and more contrite , and telling me in simple English language , and digestable engineering terms ". What is making the Universe work the way it does " Mike

. Yes, I agree , I perhaps sounded disrespectful . Which was not my intention , and I do thoroughly understand . I have experienced working in transforms to understand otherwise impossible calculations , leading to inventions , serving the world population , with whole body scanners , etc etc. I am rather caught up in the real problem for me. That is trying to understand , what is going on in the universe at large. And how it is working the way it does. If the ONLY way , Is , by mathematical manipulation , then I am SUNK . I just really hope , in the end , the mathmatical contortions , can be translated back into something I can understand and relate to ? Mike

Yes, but this is paramount to our understanding of the Universe , we live and move and think and exist in . What's going on up there , or down there , in the transformed state , be they , ,' doing piroets in a vaporous purple existence ,upside down .' may be mathematically beautiful , but it's not going to help me catch a fish and keep my family alive ? So to speak ? Mike

Well! I am familiar with the mathmatical manipulation as a transform, whether that be :- Logarithms , Fourier transforms , la place transforms , and whatever formulae one wishes to generate a particular transform such that in the new 'form ' a clearer picture may be derived, or an easier ability to manipulate data becomes possible . But surely , somewhere in all these tiers of information , SOMEWHERE, in one of these tiers A REALITY , MUST EXIST . And if not , then certainly the REALITY that we exist in , is the one we are primarily interested in . As we walk around in it , breath, live and exist . IF. at the same time ' a transform ' of all that information ' is doing piroets in A vaporous purple existence ,upside down .' That is not going to help us terribly well ? Surely ? Other than , doing some otherwise impossible calculation , in the transformed state , doing a reverse transform and getting a digestable picture , out of the process? Mike

AJB . Is the ' Manifold ' on the inside, on which the bundles are built ? Or is the 'Manifold ' on the outside ( as it were ) . . In other words , the whole of Spacetime and everything else in the universe , is contained , " , within the manifold " ? And are you saying " one slice through this ' bundle of fibres ' will give you the ' Electro-magnetic field ' and a different slice through a double ended bundle of fibres , will give you the ' Gravitational field ' , or as named ' metric ' ? Or have I got it ' all screwed up ! Mike

.Take this as a compliment " you are sounding more like AJB , every day! Lol. Well I get the tiniest bit of a glimmer , in what you just said . ( only a glimmer ) . I would prefer for my sanity's sake to come up from the bottom . BY asking neive questions , Firstly . . Which of those pictures most represents ( even if wrongly, or the wrong way up, or not quite , but has something to do with . ELECTRO - MAGNETIC FIELDS . ) even if ' not at all ' or a small part, or whatever ?? . Secondly . ...Which of those pictures most represents ( even if wrongly, or the wrong way up, or not quite , Or has fibres shoved in either end of the cylinder, ( sorry ' Bundled in either end ) but has something to do with GRAVITATIONAL FIELDS ,and SPACE TIME , even if ' not at all ' or a small part, or HOW , or whatever.??? Thirdly ....where quite , does the picture of the MANEFOLD fit , or contain , in all this ? Fourthly ... in/on which surface/s would the Gravitational Waves , show up ? Fifly... What quite do the fibres represent ? ' field lines of force? , or if they are only a suppose, what are they supposing? Thanks in anticipation! Mike

Now what is what : Möbius : . . Manifold :- Cylinder and möbius :- Where do the fibres go and what part is the Gravitational Field and Electro magnetic Field ? Mike . Bump mapped :-

Is it possible to "SKETCH" in pencil ' roughly ' what all these things look like , ? I know you are talking in maths terms , but if you talk of a cylinder , with fibres clamped to the base , it conjures up a sort of image ? And if you talk of a Manifold , I have seen a weird sketch of a particular manifold . To me at this stage it does not matter if it is exactly right or even half right . I am finding it extremely difficult to build up a picture in my mind . ( you have probably gathered, I can only think in pictures) . So one for Gravity field , and one for Electro-magnetism field .and sketches for the individual items you listed and described above . Please . I will be over the moon . Ecstatic , forever in your intellectual debt. Please don't say No , or you can't. Just sketch it on a scrap of paper , take a photo with your I pad , downsize to below 1 megabit and attach to the post . Mike

. No! Now you have ,overshot . Is it asking too much for you to kindly , bring the intensity levels back up :- A ) to 5/6 universal electro magnetic fields and B) to 5/6. Universal gravitational fields. I am sure you have something really interesting to say about the origins , interactions , and the general nature of these two fields . And how they have shaped and are still shaping the universe we are barely seeing and understanding . If these two entities 1( mass with gravity ) and 2 ( electro- magnetism and light ) are the two major players in the development of the universe and contenders for the quantum - gravity, issue . Do we see any conclusion on their ultimate separateness or the understanding of their possible common origin ? Sorry to 'go on ' a bit , but this subject is excruciatingly interesting as well as ground breaking . As per the citation given previously :- http://www.nature.com/news/theoretical-physics-the-origins-of-space-and-time-1.13613 And :- http://www.tapir.caltech.edu/~teviet/Waves/gwave_spectrum.html And :- background on interaction :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction And :- gravitons :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graviton Mike

.I appreciate the effort you are going to, to help . But could I dare to ask for another ' run at it ' . This time with the ' math speak ' turned down from level 7 to level 3 . Similarly the physics speak , turned down from 5 to 2 . I will be thinking of the subject in hand to do with the composition of the Universe , both electro- magnetically ( light and other radiation ) and how Gravity , it's nature ,distribution and function throughout the universe , works . Mike

. It is much appreciated , AJB, your input to this issue. Due to its importance , significance , help to all on their understanding , particularly mine ! Is it possible for you to translate your last ( clearly very significant ) comment about the nature of space-time and its ( medium style ) workings with em and gravity waves . Could you speak it , as if you were talking to a ' gibbering idiot ' Ps . (not quite ) . Much appreciated . Mike

. That's a good question ! I hope someone could have a shot at it. I beleive we are right at the fore front of modern physics research ? Research , into the actual nature of SPACE-TIME and How it got here ? Ref :- http://www.nature.com/news/theoretical-physics-the-origins-of-space-and-time-1.13613 Mike

. Yes ! , very good . I think ,demos, models , analogies are very educational. Obviously one has to keep a reserve, as Only the real thing , can demonstrate perfectly the real thing. But equally it can throw in for free , things one might not have though of ? I must say I always wondered a bit about the rubber sheet and things falling inward having anomalies in it , however perhaps without these analogies 'we might be lost ' sometimes . I liked his ' speed limit ' comment ! I had always thought of light being the driver here , when in fact ( if what he says is correct ). Light only goes that fast , BECAUSE. It , light has hit the speed limit of ( space time ) . That would infer that is the nature of ( space-time) as a medium that dictates the limit of anything within it . It cannot go any faster ( speed limit) . So one assumes , that IF. the NATURE of SPACE-TIME was different ( say thinner or more elastic or some other quality) and it imposed a higher speed limit . Then light would rise to meet the new limit . As opposed to the NATURE of LIGHT . ? Fixing its speed ? By the nature of light itself ? Mike

.Well , obviously with All analogies they have their limitations. But if one was to consider far ends of the model/ analogy . Then it does illustrate some interesting similarities! For instance A) with a rubber sheet , taught, no mass on it , anywhere to be seen immediately thereabouts. Then what . It exists only in two dimensions ,( so no 3 d space time ) if B) you place a mass of some sort in the middle , you do get a displacement into a third dimension . This thing has mass , matter . The bigger the mass of matter the bigger the indentation . If you were a massless particle , no dent . ( not sure of consequences of that ? ) C) second mass will receive an attraction to the first mass .in the model as well as reality . No avoidance . Unless you are massless! D) if you creat a wave near the colliding masses , the rubber sheet will vibrate a while into the distance Mike

.Yes well that is great ! I have only been temporarily using the word ' aether' as it was in the original post , posted by someone else . ( MoonTanMan) I wouldn't mind knowing who first coined the rubber sheet analogy . Was it Einstein or a more recent scientist . As it does offer some interesting possible insights , if it was the great master himself ? Einstein ? Mike Ps this is almost on a par with ( "which is more important ? the medium ? Or the message? " ) bandied around some years ago!

So ! What about my question ? -------------------- Quote " If this were so? Then space-time itself as a gravitational field , would BE, or constitute the - ' medium. ' In other words as the ORIGINAL posting states " Gravity waves and the aether" The aether is ' space-time ' , ' the gravitational field ' ? Is that not so ? " Unquote ? ------------------------------- If that were to be the case? Then the gravitational waves , would truly be said to be travelling in/on the medium ( or aether ) ? Would that therefore be so ? Mike

O.k. I thought that might be something like the case . So is it 3 dimensions of space and 1 of time ( as in space-time ) ? Or is it more correctly :- 3 dimensions of space-time , where each of the three dimensions say , x,y,z dimensions of space X coordinate , Y coordinate, Z coordinate T time are all categorised with separate space-time values , with individual coordinates, or is time the same across all the three spacial dimensions . Working as one distinct value of ' t ' across all 3 Spacial dimensions ? ( I probably have not worded that very clearly ) Mike

.. Yes, but if space-time is this grid , that gets curved by mass. Matter . In various ways , as illustrated . The gravitational field which is presumably space -time itself ? Must be something ? It can't be nothing, as curving nothing would be meaningless. Unless it was pure geometry. Then it would be nothing but would not be " the gravitational field , (as space-time ). . If this were so? Then space time itself as a gravitational field , would BE, or constitute the medium. In other words as the ORIGINAL posting states " Gravity waves and the aether" The aether is ' space time ' , ' the gravitational field ' ? Is that not so ? It would appear ( by looking at the two diagrams above) ,it is , :- that Mass, Matter , pulls the two dimensional state, into a third dimensional state? And in so doing invokes the production of a gravitational attractive field ? And that Gravitational Waves are in fact the ripples created in this two dimensional state , to become , :- " Gravity waves , in three dimensions travelling out in all directions across ' space time ' ( the aether) ? Does this sound right ? Mike

What does this mean , quite " negative verticals angles " ? Mike

.Today on the Beach at Budleighsalterton South Devon , on the 200,000,000 year old pebble beds, the bed of a supercontinent massive River bottom . . . Matter Stones set in slow moving , matter gritty sand . Covered with energetic splashy fast moving waves of water in an emense sea of water with Enough Energy to power a world . He thinks of two distinct things . 1. The universe is full of matter , of various sized mass . Spread out like an ocean floor which acts as a base to the oceans , and similarly the Base structure of the Universe, and all that happens in 'her' . 2. The universe is full of Energy , of various waves and ripples. Spread about space , carrying the total cacophony of light and electro magnetic waves and energy to power a Universe . These two DIFFERENT , Eternal Enterprises ,( MATTER and ENERGY ) make up our UNIVERSE. . So different , separate , yet so complementary for existence. Mike

. They all went home . And left me standing by the Roadside ! And I am left ,wondering where my vehicle has disappeared to ? -------------- --------------------- ----------------- Somebody found him ' days later ' , still sitting on the grass verge , beside the road , dusty, ..muttering , saying ...over and over again ... ... " Yes but .." What.. is .. 'actually' there ?." . .. ..and gazing into the sun, ...... ..... Or was he hearing voices , asking him ...... ........ " what are these medium , you speak of ? " ........ these ..." Gravity waves and the Aether ? " But by this time , he had gone .. ' Stark staring bonkers ...' Lost the plot ! Mike