Mike Smith Cosmos

.How do we know that " The matter that is distributed in space (whether gases in the intergalactic medium or the arms of the LIGO detector) are perturbed by the presence of gravitational waves. But they are not necessary, as a medium, for the propagation of those waves. " How do we know that is so . ? We would have to remove all that stuff to the last molecule of intergalactic space . And the material part of the LIGO detector . Then wait for a potential gravity wave , and test as to whether it arrived or did not arrive , to prove or disprove what you are saying , surely ? Mike P.s. Would the ' P ' wave and 'S' wave arrive through the Earths mantle to shake a building to bits , half way across the world , if there was a great vacuum gap somewhere deep in the earth mantle , in the path of the propagating earthquake 'P' and 'S' waves ?

.I have had a good long talk with a colleague , a Physics Doctorate , who by no means agreed with me on many points , and in some way endorsed what you have said , to some extent . But it has clarified something about my terminology , and your terminology . About these matters . To some extent it seems it might be a matter of terminology. What I am calling medium , might be more like well distributed very small matter and isolated charge . This producing a distributed electro magnetic field , which I am calling a medium . Similarly with denser concentrations of matter , and gravitational fields , he is saying I might be referring to this distribution of matter and gravitational fields , as medium / aether , which might be , being viewed by the larger scientific community as just location and distribution of matter , where I am referring to it as a medium / aether . I am not sure I know the difference ? Mike

Well surely an electric field can exist between two poles say . Clouds and earth . And if the field is too large you get a collapse, and lightning discharges between the poles. Or you have point charges distributed evenly over a three dimensional space . Fine an electric field exists over all this space . But then what ever is holding or making up the point charges , constitutes a medium for ELECTRO MAGNITISM as AETHER surely . Similarly for mass , two masses apart , gravity force between them . Or Matter in a whole host of particles, making up distributed mass across the whole of space . Thus making up a medium or AETHER for GRAVITY . and it's WAVES Or am I up a ' gum tree ' Mike

Yes I can follow that about FIELDS and do understand it in principle . BUT , the hang up I have , is that I cannot see fields just , hanging there across the whole Universe , from one side to the other , without a medium / Aether for the field to hang on or be supported by , or exist , IN ,ON, or ABOUT. The field would surely collapse if there was no supportive structure in ' SOMETHING ' with substance ? Surely .? Mike

Well I assume that interaction is usually by either Resonance or impact with sufficient energy . I am not totally clear what you are asking? Presumably we can do that with electro-magnetism and gravity? I have only been considering 'Waves ' , because of the title of the thread ( " Gravity waves and the Aether " ) . I have been a bit sensitive of keeping on target ! I can wander a bit sometimes ! Mike I am sorry if the subject of Medium/ Aether are tiresome , I personally have found resonance in a different medium than the originating waves 'host ' of energy , one of the most fascinating scientific phenomenon of all my time and life. From the first sight of a germanium crystal, to the i-phone, and i- pad not 6inches from my fingertips . This phenomenon , of Electro-magnetic transmission and reception has been my life's continuing fascination and endeavour to fully understand , and now with Gravity waves and Aether , quite WHAT IS GOING ON ? I still find it quite incredible that for so little energy , we can communicate across the globe , and space. Incredible , mind blowing . Yet we still seem to differ as to our understanding of ( medium or no-medium / Aether ) . And this equally seems to apply to gravity and its waves , yet in a different way ( and medium / aether ) . And as regards your comment " has not needed an aether or medium for the past century." All I can retort is " maybe someone took a wrong turn , somewhere , sometime " ! To me , it will be on my gravestone " He never did find out definitely " ( " I told them I was ill ! " ) Mike

Quote Strange" ...... By comparison, your wild guesses are worthless. .." What happens if they are Right ? I am going to supply a model , which should contain why and how ...... -------- GRAVITY WAVES and the AETHER ---------- .........Are what they are ! Mike

. Not THE AETHER , In my model there are two distinct MEDIUMS ( that's why I do not like using the title AETHER ) one .................( for mass and gravity waves ) .......................the heavy content .............Dark Matter and another.... ( for light and electro-magnetic waves ) . ......the lightweight content ........Dark Energy . Link :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_modelling An example of scientific modelling . Mike So the model for GRAVITY WAVES AND THE AETHER Needs to be arranged in this format . ( to follow )

Sure . To follow ! Promise . In the mean time I need to adjunct the related AETHER/MEDIUM . Which provides the Electro-Magnetic ENABLER for the whole of space time ELECTRO-MAGNETISM . I would SUGGEST that with all the voids which pepper the universe from the centre of atoms to the expanse of deep space , can only be communicated across by a medium /aether . In this second case we are talking about ELECTRO-MAGNETISM . SO the enabling MEDIUM / AETHER In this case is the ELECTRO-MAGNETIC FIELD set up by an energy source so great that it permeate everything ,everywhere . In looking for an energy source that contained this amount of energy , which with the assistance, and working in conjunction with ELECTRO -MAGNETISM . In order to be such an all pervasive MEDIUM./AETHER source could only be DARK ENERGY . Again , with the flapping at the edge of an empty pond would enable nothing , but with an AETHER/MEDIUM could pervade and ENABLE all of space time . So the fact that an Electro-Magnetic field permeates all of space time is Evidence of the ENABLING AETHER. MIKE

This Is where I need to be very careful. To me the very presence recently of the remnants of a gravitational wave , that passed by as it hit the LIGO DETECTORS, is itself evidence of a medium / Aether. Because , if you believe as I do that mediums are NOT optional . In other words , I would say , NO waves whatsoever could cross a void without a (boat ) or MEDIUM/AETHER . Then the arrival of a wave , to me , was evidence that there IS an Aether / medium. As I explained in previous posts , I think of medium/aether as a facilitator ENABLER as sure as " anyone flapping a paddle about in the air near the ground , at the edge of a dried up lake , would never produce a movement on the far side of the lake . Whereas a refilled lake , receiving the flapping paddle on one side of the lake , WOULD receive a wave , ripple on the far side of the lake . Thus the lake of water acted as a facilitator, ENABLER , for energy , a wave to pass from one side of the lake to the other. As I previously explained , the evidence would be provided from the RECIPIENT of the ENABLEMENT . QED MIKE

Humm ! ? Hmm !

Are you sure we have looked hard enough . After all there are all sorts of scientific looking people , down mine shafts, looking for particles that sound important , but only interact occasionally ? Yet some of these particles are very important in the standard model , and other models for " how the universe works " Mike

Yes , and I agree with you , IF , IF ,IF " SPACE -TIME was something ( THING ) . but Unless I am going completely round the bend . You guys keep telling me that space -time is curved , BUT , Space - Time is Only geometry. If space time was actually ' something ' . I really do not mind if it is goo y soft spongy rubber sheet style invisible , matrix shaped , ' ( gunge) . Then you can curve it , shape it into a chair , Great , I am your man ! I will sit in the chair too. Because then we can all send a wave , in it, and the ( gunge) is my medium , and we can all go home . Please tell me what it is , as long as it's not " nothing " Mike

.Hey ! Wait a minute , you just Hi jacked my illustrative tale ! That's not fair ! Joke . Well , if I am wrong about dark matter , ( I may be ) . I just went for the biggest , gravity sensitive commodity around . As you would expect sea water to be the main medium of waves in the sea . No doubt sea weed plays an infinitesimal part . But sea water is one of the main ingredients. Mike Yes well that would be fine , if what you call SPACE - TIME , was something , something of some form of substance , or containing something of substance , like mass particles , or even go through-your hand 10,000,000 zippy particles ever second particles dark matter particles , but I fear and tremble that you are going to say that there is nothing there but geometry ? Mike

.I have added a few more examples of waves in matter. Different matter , different waves . And as the ringing electric bell in a Bell jar , experiment . ( empty the bell jar of air , and the ringing Stops . ) no medium no sound . . I think it is the Kings suit of clothes , syndrome . Everybody is saying " there is no aether , no need for an aether " This is ' craziness ' . There has to be a vehicle for waves , no vehicle , no transportation of waves . It's counter to most of nature . If there is no medium " I will eat my hat " The reason I have picked Dark Matter as the medium is because ( whatever dark matter is ) , it is a MAJOR player in the gravitational balance within Galaxies . If you hit a gong , brass with silver plating , then you could say that the silver plating was part of the medium for the gonging sound , in reality , most was due to the brass as the medium . So with matter and dark matter . Gravity is a central feature of normal matter , but in a galaxy the majority of influence is due to dark matter . I believe . If I have understood what I have read about dark matter and its influence in galaxies and the universe . Mike

I do want to be educated . What I do not understand , is why there should be so much of a desire , for there not to have " mediums or Aethers ' for things that would normally seems such common sense . ( like sound in air , waves in water, undersea currents , gusts in air , earthquake P and S waves in rock and mantel etc , ) ? Mike

But that is not quite correct! Surely? I am saying Dark matter is the medium for Gravity waves. You can detect and gain evidence for the existence of Dark matter. By galaxy calculation , observation . , surely ? Mike

.I think the evidence is born in the fact that : The nature of producing a wave is :- that you have to produce a wave in something . You cannot produce a wave in nothing . This is the nub of this issue of Aether and Medium . The examples of waves in something are countless. The examples of waves in nothing are few , not at all , or dubious to say the least. I find it extraordinary that people , scientists , and the like , who will not normally believe in anything they can't see , can't prove , can't scape a sample off, can't get there hands on and test , :- that they believe waves are flapping about in absolutely " nothing " . If they are flapping about in something , then it's an aether or medium , even if that medium is an electro- magnetic field , it's a medium or aether . As with light or radiation . If it's Gravity , that's flapping about , it must be flapping about in something , not nothing , not a mathmatical formulae , that's nothing , unless it's describing something , even if that something is a field , it's something , an Aether/ medium , not nothing ? Space - is not nothing , it's heaving with " stuff " , so if that stuff is waving ,flapping about, it's an aether/ medium by my definition , as the wave is in the stuff. Either that , or I died , and am having some insane dream ! Now, I don't think I have died yet , so if GRAVITY needs a medium to wave about in , I am suggesting the medium / aether that its flapping around in is DARK MATTER. And there is evidence for DARK MATTER so there is evidence for this Aether/ medium ( true we need to prove the dark matter is flapping /waving. (Perhaps this will come out of the LIGO experiments ) And so if Light and ELECTRO MAGNETIC waves need a medium/aether to flap around in , I am suggesting the medium /aether that it's interacting with is the space wide electro-magnetic field set up And carried by DARK ENERGY. I am not too clear about evidence for the Electro Magnetic Field as tied in with DARK ENERGY ( I need to think about that one , but that is probably easier to detect , and find evidence for ) , I would think , that can nearly be a bench experiment , even if the bench needs to be down a mine ? Mike

.. Thinking about the origination of the Medium / AETHER for GRAVITY WAVES . If I am right , then the origin will have occurred shortly after the break in the original Super Symmetry. At the first break which I assume occurred right at the beginning of the ....... Breaking Symmetry ... The size at the start , has purported to be the size of an ATOM . ( a Singularity of singularities. ) DARK MATTER must surely have been part of that first ' break ' . This must have thus been the start of MASS, GRAVITY , Constituting AETHER/MEDIUM plus any other necessary early ingredients all in one package . No doubt the seeds of GRAVITATIONAL WAVES , Mass, and Medium/ Aether were possibly causing standing waves to develope , that set the basis for the universes structure that we now see , but in a much smaller package . As the later symmetry breaking brought about the start of DARK ENERGY , which would have occupied all of the then existing SPACE . In so doing , the second AETHER/MEDIUM set up as an ELECTRO-MAGNETIC FIELD , evenly distributed across all existing space . This then acting as the medium for LIGHT and other ELECTRO-MAGNETIC WAVES . OR at least that is how I imagine it happening . As a Conjecture ? I do not see a conflict , other than like the inside of the sun , the whole thing is a seathing sea of all sorts . Until it expands . But on a much , much , much ,much vaster scale . I would think the two mediums/ aethers and their respective contents would start to sort themselves out , by the recombination event , 300,000 years out ? At this time , I would have thought the AETHER /MEDIUM and MATTER and GRAVITATIONAL WAVES would be well on the way to setting up the future structure of the Universe. Also , at this time , I would have thought the other AETHER/MEDIUM and ENERGY and LIGHT WAVES would be well on the way to spreading out across all of space to become the MICROWAVE BACKGROUND RADIATION we see today ? Possibly one in advance of the other . Light and Energy first , then. Gravity and Matter , following on? Thus LIGHT WAVES and GRAVITY WAVES being in their respective AETHER's / MEDIUM's Illustration of light crossing from early universe to earth today . In this case incorporating gravitational lensing . Mike

. I hope you are on the same ' wavelength ' as me . ( pardon the pun ) . As previously described , I have learned my science , in and out of , childhood, school, University , Industry, and Teaching . And now pondering . This evolving way of learning, understanding , of the world and universe , is the similar progression made by scientists as a whole , have learned , over the last 1000 to 2000 years . Pardon my apparent arrogance , it is not meant that way , but sometimes , only sometimes , a little overview type of understanding , over a multiplicity of disciplines , can sometimes , only sometimes , give one a view, a glimps , a peek , that specialists fail to see , because of being TOO CLOSE , to the subject . I know this will make you ' bristle ' , but I have even had one of my daughters, or wife , say , something so ' naive ' that it makes one wince . But occasionally they can be ' right on the nail ' What does this have to do with all this ? I am not involved with doing the maths of the standard model , or super strings, or relativistic analysis, or quantum mechanics directly . However , I do understand in vague principle , mostly ALL of it . This is like squinting your eyes , in a room of various sources of light . Once 'squinting ' it soon becomes apparent where is the ' Main source of light ' . Yes you need to recognise light , but the squinting , makes it obvious where the main ' source or sources'. Are. To me, having an overall ' squint ' at everything , roughly , from beginning to end , from top to bottom , it seems painfully obvious ' what is going on , in principle . True I do not have anywhere near the detail , but I believe I have a good idea of what is going on . The words may not all be correct, the detailed operations are probably not correct . BUT this is one world, one universe , one system across the whole thing . All the animals are different , but they all have something in common .. Life . And similarly you can trace much commonality across the universe , even though there are mind blowing extremes. I think we have a brain that can handle those extremes. It's no wonder the Galaxy is seen and called the ' Milky Way ' , and so scientists through the last 1000 to 2000 years have self taught their way through all the twists , turns , attraction , repulsion , flow, waves , seas, streams, wind , clouds, and now they see the heavens as never before , we are amazed at it , and we are understanding it ! So to me it is obvious what is going on , with the two systems of mediums ( aethers ) , one for light , one for matter . Thus one with mainly energy ( dark energy ) mediating the electro magnetism , light , etc . And another one with mainly mass orientated ( dark matter ) mediating ( aether ) mass and gravity . All the rest working around these two distinctly different channels . The human body is a good example of this type of dual mediums . The digestive tract ( handling food ) , and the nerve tract . ( handling nerve, electricity ) . O.k there are other systems working in the universe and in the human body , but the principle is there as clear as day ! Yes I probably have some aspects horribly wrong , but in principle I feel quite comfortable , I am on the right track . Mike

Mike

.I am not quite sure what you mean by ' we '? As far as I can understand at the moment , with a limited knowledge we have of dark matter . Depending on the current research and which particles come to be fully identified as entertaining interaction . Some of the candidate particles , are like ' Neutrinos ' and several million are going straight through your hand per second as you type on your I pad . Other candidates have other properties. My choice of Dark Matter for the medium is not arbitory . Dark matter seems to work in conjunction with Gravity , as both Gravity and Dark Matter shape a Galaxy , and indeed the Universe , so we are in the right area of influence . At the moment I can not answer your question on the fluid , and viscous characteristics . Also I do not feel at this stage going through the Michaelson Morley experiment has too much relevance. As that has been discussed at depth , and argued about by greater men than I . I think though it may get rekindled , if Dark matter is better identified . Then perhaps we can visit , Michaelson -Morley afresh as it applies to 'dark matter ' . If it is like neutrinos and it's pouring through Everthing without batting an eye . Well we might just as well throw a cabbage in the air . But dark matter does Interact , BUT with what , and what actually IS IT? May be we will have to observe what happens when a comet or asteroid goes through Dark Matter ? Michaelson -Morley with a difference ? Mike Ps I will do some more research on These particles of Dark matter . Clearly they do interact, as they appear to be shaping Galaxies and in fact the Universe at large . !

.As per my previous post , I am suggesting the medium/ AETHER for GRAVITATIONAL WAVES ''' could ''' be ' DARK MATTER ' . This would seem reasonable as it was first descovered by its galactic requirement for approximately 25 % more mass required in rotating galaxies to balance the forces ( my old favourite I think , centripetal- centrifugal force in rotating galaxies ) . Experiments are currently underway to identify and capture interaction with this matter. Many interaction experiments are carried out underground , in mines etc. This reference discusses ( dark matter 'particles' ) many of these ' on earth' or ' under earth ' experiments and potential particles. Which If I am right could make up , or be part of , the AETHER for GRAVITATIONAL WAVES . WIMP's appear to be a hot favourite ( WIMP weakly interacting massive particles) . Their size could be several times the size of a proton down to just less than the size of a proton . Sounds like good MEDIUM / AETHER for GRAVITATIONAL WAVES to me ? Ref : - :- http://www.kavlifoundation.org/science-spotlights/spotlight-live-dark-matter-long-last-three-new-experiments-ramp#.V5xMJZB4WK1 Mike. Ps . I did a simple compression experiment , while in Italy , in my swimming pool. It was found to be quite in order to make waves travel UNDERWATER by shock or sudden compression . I felt the waves arrive a moment or two later on my legs , as well as seeing the sun light distortion , that passed through the water . Not quite two black holes collapsing into one another , but the principle was there !

. Some really supportive research , being accomplished , with regards to " Dark Matter " and the way it is structuring the universe as possibly ' WHIMPS' , 'AXIONS' etc this could support my idea as a " MEDIUM OR AETHER to support GRAVITATIONAL WAVES A really useful link and discussion about dark matter , and how it gives structure to the universe, enabling GRAVITATIONAL forces to have an effect and act within and between Galaxies, giving them their shape :- http://www.kavlifoundation.org/science-spotlights/spotlight-live-dark-matter-long-last-three-new-experiments-ramp#.V5xMJZB4WK1 . Mike

Gravitational waves and the Aether . Well as discussed through much of this thread, I have substituted the word 'Aether' with the word 'Medium ' , because of the poor press , and bias, since the Michael Morley experiment , supposedly debunked the idea of an Aether , and it has made it very difficult to discuss , because many scientists have become quite dogmatic on the subject. ( B) So , I am suggesting there is the necessity for a medium ( previously called aether ) for both the electro magnetic waves , namely light and radio waves . And also ; (A) Further I am suggesting there is a need for a different medium ( previously called aether ) for gravitational waves . So in covering (B) first , as this is the origination of the word AETHER , I have followed the argument proposed by many on this forum , for the origin of the electro-magnetic field . We appeared to find its source back in the time before the recombination ( 300,000 years after Big Bang ) at a time of separation of the electro-week force from the four main symmetrical forces. We then suggested that this could become the electro-magnetic field that permeated all of free space . What I am suggesting , is that that amount of electrical field, to be set up across ALL of space would require an immense amount of ENERGY . So I am suggesting that the MEDIUM or AETHER supplying that amount of energy , is in fact the DARK ENERGY currently being discussed but set up in this Electro Magnetic field , which acts as an AETHER or MEDIUM for photons and other Electro Magnetic radiation . So in covering (A) second , as I believe this could follow in a similar style , with an Aether or Medium. This time for GRAVITATIONAL WAVES. Gravity was one of the first forces to separate from the original Super symmetry. In so doing I am suggesting this was the origin of mass, by way of DARK MATTER , which constituted the other AETHER OR MEDIUM , containing much of the main mass of the universe , going out in strands and waves , like waves in water , as previously discussed . So that the structure of the universe was laid down by this combination of Gravity and Medium , or rather GRAVITATIONAL WAVES and the AETHER . The Gravity, Aether of Mass and Waves , keeping up the strands and void-like appearance, of the whole Universe . . Mike

.TESTING I suppose the mediums ( if they exist , as I think and propose they exist ) will also be right here , Under my nose ) . So a test right here on the bench would be sufficient ? Even if the measurement is made on the ENABLED rather than the ENABLER . So if we're testing for DARK ENERGY the test would need to be on the enabled. Eg the photon or electro magnetic wave And if we were testing for DARK MATTER the test would need to be on the enabled . Eg mass or whole atoms or molecules . I Think ? Mike