Mike Smith Cosmos

.Welcome , aboard . I am a Brit but also from Aljezera in Portugal ., in the Algarve . We have land overlooking the Atlantic Ocean . One of our Daughters will develope it one day . . Beautiful coast for surfing ? Xavia ! Surf the surf! Mike

.No , just for the moment , I am prepared to accept that both Lee Smolin and Carlow Revelli, have done a good job on pushing Loop quantum gravity forward . The maths on Lee Smolin 's Wikipedia site are utterly daunting . For the moment I am accepting that a fuzzy network of billions upon billions of '.. Ashketar ' Loops are making up this bedrock , quantum foundation to space time , in the way they propose. I am assuming that this bedrock consists of something tangible . Whatever that means at that level . Unfortunately , you mathmatisians seem to be happy with pure maths and geometry , posing as some form of reality. I need substance , whatever that is at a fundamental level . For the time being , I can but only accept that ' something is there that has this characteristic of Grid , quantum , and I would go on to say an ENABLING MEDIUM ., ! Which could of course make up to be a very ,very substantial, TOTAL . AMOUNT of ENERGY And /Or MATTER , whether they ( Rovelli and Smolin) are saying this is the missing ( DARK ENERGY and /or DARK MATTER ) , I am not sure if they are? This I am proposing is the Bedrock Basis of the universe. All that follows is built on this bedrock . This foundation Enables the classical universe to exist ( where possibly the Dark Matter and Dark Energy exist ) . This classical universe , the one we know and love and see , possibly derives its , existence, shape , spread characteristics, FROM the enabling foundation medium, by some means or other. So rather than being a " something" , which may or may not exist . It becomes the bedrock Grid and facilitator. ENABLER. I am happy now , for the time being ! While sitting in another model medium ( water , I tried two experiments ) 1. A surface wave but with strong sunlight shining through Remarkable likeness to images of galaxy distribution throughout the universes? This one even more interesting this time I made an underwater impact with my whole hand ( sudden sharp pulse sideways underwater . I could feel the three dimensional wave pulse , underwater with my other hand , . Although the illumination was not direct , the resultant 3 dimensional wave did produce an image plus a rather perculiar object , which I cannot quite work out what it is ( unless It is some form of void ) shadow .* However this experiment does illustrate the ease and requirements of Energy to have a medium , in order to produce waves . Mike * no plug hole any where near ( it was at the far , other end of the pool )

.Yes I appreciate that , except it is Carlow Revelii ' s summation of how his research has led him to comprehend the possible state of things at the 10 to the - 18 of the size of a single atom . If it could be proved that " loop quantum gravity " particles DO exist at this very fine grain of existence ? I will walk around in the sunshine and reflect on the matter in the swimming pool to see how this relates to the model I suggested ,in the previous post about .:- ENABLER AS A MEDIUM As my argument was :- That you do not need to ' get at ' the ENABLER , because if you take my model as good , we just need to make the inspection (test ) and see the effect at the atomic level , rather than the loop level ( at 10 to the - 18 ) . Mike

. And here is a picture of the ENABLER . . ( Enabling the Granular Structure of Space ) care of Carlo Rovelli Mike

COMBINED MODEL FOR CLASSICAL AND QUANTUM BEHAVIOR WITHIN THE . " ENABLING MEDIUM " So the suggested model is :- There is a supportive " MEDIUM " which exists in the capacity of an ENABLING SYSTEM . This ENABLING System is composed of particles some 10 to the minus. 18 the size of a conventional atom . These quantum particles exist and represent themselves as a Quantum Grid , arranged in a background 3 dimensional matrix . The particles are derived from loop quantum gravity " Ashketar Loops" This supportive quantum gravity matrix is devoid of time . Overlaid on this universe wide " MEDIUM " and acts as a supportive ENABLING system to :- Including the Conventional , Classical , Relativistic Einstein general theory of Gravity. Complete with conventional space time fields , supporting MASS, ENERGY, ELECTRO MAGNETISM , and other forces . This combined quantum and classical Model is what I am proposing for testing purposes. Where the classical systems are ENABLED by the quantum grid , as a MEDIUM . In other words the loop quantum gravity timeless system Working at a 10 to the minus 18 size of atoms act as a QUANTUM ENABLING MEDIUM to the Classical Systems of the Standard Model . Working at Atomic level . Levels and specifications . . --------------------////--------------------////----------------- To understand what model I am suggesting here : In many spheres of endeavour , for example " speech therapy " , on speaking with a speech therapist . A client who is having difficulty in " Speaking " . An ENABLER, , who is another person , a speech therapist will provide assistance . This is referred an ENABLING . Perhaps an inspector may look to the one who is experiencing particular problems , to inspect if the work being done by the ENABLER is working . In this way the Inspector is able to have an insight , as to the nature of the therapist and his/ her work . So as a Model , or example of an ENABLER . Here we have the main body , being the human with a speech problem . Their improvement depends on the ENABLER . Who is only realy inspected by the effectiveness of their work as a speech therapist by being inspected as to the results or improvement to the Client . So the model applied to the proposed state of the Universe. The nature of the " enabling medium " is inspected and tested by testing the improvement in the client , provided by his/her ENABLER. Mike

.I agree with the idea , that a model and test should be necessary , and made possible , if we , I am , to insist that a " medium of some sort is present in the universe. I will have to think how the model is constructed, the test made possible . ------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- It is to be an ENABLER. The model is the ENABLER , ( who's function is to ENABLE the particular phenomenon ( say ELectro- Magnetic , GRAVITY, WAVE)etc , to travel through the medium . By thus Achieving ( MODELING the MEDIUM .) The model can be described in grater detail and function. In order to test the model , what will be necessary will be to test the thing being enabled . Thus by inference the thing being enabled will prove the existence of the enabler ( namely the medium ) In principle ------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Mike

.Yes but remember , I was not talking of our Universe . I was referring to .. Beyond our Universe ... The mind boggles , beyond our Universe . One needs to come to terms , in your own belief system , what lays beyond ? But certainly if is in the scope of our :- Universe , with all the things ' astromically , cosmologically, worldly , including the unknowns of dark , energy and dark matter ' This mixture of listed things , I have every optimism, that the Universe is spread with some form of 'grid' , that can include amongs all the fields, matter, waves, forces , energy , electro-magnetism, mass . This intrinsic matrix , backdrop, that for want of a better word .. Medium .. I believe is spread from one end of the universe to the other . But beyond , 'the Universe ' ... I have my ideas , but that is outside of the content of this thread. And I do not expect any of the above listed things to necessarily be present . Mike

May be the ultimate expanse of Nothingness or of something much ,much , bigger and better , that we don't understand or can in anyway relate to directly ? Mike

. I am not convinced of that . No evidence of any medium , does not necessarily mean , that there is not one . It could mean there is one , but we have not discovered it yet ? And in fact there is more likely to be something rather than nothing ? We are faced with a lot of maths symbols and geometric figures . But in themselves they are just maths and geometry . They might well be predicted geometry , which Says that something is , or is not a certain shape , or should be a certain shape , but surely that is not a real entity, until it is actually found , and I don't think anything has been found yet ? I suppose if I could believe a maths formula or a geometric point is as good as it is ever going to get , then I must concede we will never know . But with string theory , there are supposed to be minute strings made of what ? Then loop quantum gravity , there are supposed to be little loops , made of what ? Presumably general relativity says there is curvature in something , but in what ? Some say the 'what'' is nothing , something , or whatever . Why can the something or whatever, not be the medium not yet clearly defined , or not yet clearly found ? Mike

.Are you saying that ' Space ' is absolutely :- nothing , zero , no field , no nothing , absolute VOID. Drop off the end of the universe VOID . For some reason or other , I can not just accept that . If that were the case then a photon of light/em wave could disappear out of the universe and go on for ever , And to some extent , ( even if subject to an inverse cubic law ) so would Gravitational waves go out of the Universe , getting weaker and weaker and weaker , but still going on , for ever weaker and miniscule . Unless , both waves were quantised , and particle-ised , then they could . But if they were quantised , and Particle-ised then there would need to be a medium of sorts there , would there not ? Even if this medium ,is like nothing we now know , it's own ( space time ' 'Ashketar '' type loop , quantised , timeless particle , medium ) BUT , I really can't see how these two sets of waves can do that , either , within the universe , or outside the universe , without some form of MEDIUM . It is totally counter intuitive , if nothing else, to me . " he said , being carted off screaming ! " Mike

But there may be some form of dust , or mush Mike

If I go the Classical route , back to the beginning , unlike the quantum route . Will I find anything equivalent of Ashketar variables , . What is the most fundamental particle , going the classical , even including its smaller derivatives ? Mike

.But ( although I agree it is another subject ) surely this area of reconciling , if it is necessary to reconcile ( quantum and gravity ) , is none the less tied centrally into the question we have been discussing ( gravity waves and the aether) , it is inseparable, is it not? Perhaps I should just leave it HERE, for the time being ! .....( now there's a pun ) Mike

.Well, as you know , I have been attempting to track back through the time span of the universe, In order to uncover , quite what " anything of some form of substance , could have been the origin of a 'medium ' , which could lead to the vehicle for ' Gravity Waves ' or Gravity / Space-Time , for that matter " I would have thought that 'IF' ....? ...these ' Ashketar Variables' realy are responsible for twirling up to become rings, to become quarks and other sub atomic particles as Prof Lee Smolin suggests . ( Carlo Rovelli, suggests this is one of the Seven major Lessons of Physics) to quote him " here, in the vanguard, beyond the borders of knowledge, science becomes even more beautiful - incandescent in the forge of nascent ideas, of intuitions, of attempts. Of roads taken and then abandoned, of enthusiasms. In the effort to imagine what has not yet been imagined " unquote And if these loops do also make up the " space or space - time " itself . Then this surely is the very area we have been seeking? I appreciate some of this is untested as is string theory , but surely this is the very source , of what we , ( I ) am looking for , is that not so ? Mike

Remembering this now ( Lee Smolin constructed a shape , whatever these 'a' particles were they were very , very , small and loopy , when they built up one on top of another they became some of the fundamental Particles, like Quarks etc . And other very small particles . The backdrop to this was somehow independent of time . Whether they, ( Lee Smolin and Carlo Rovelli are revamping this subject , I am not sure . ) . But something appears to , being proposed as ( time invariant ) , independent of time , I think . Mike

When I read up on Smolins work on loops , it was a while ago but I thought it was based on something , a thing that was circular , it began with ' a' . And if you did a function on these rings , they end up making loops in set shapes , differerent for the fundamental particles . Mike

Two quotes from Carlo Rovelli . Mike

To quote ' Carlo Rovelli " the central result of Loop Quantum Gravity is indeed that space is not continuous, that it is not infinitely divisible but made up of grains or ' atoms of space ' . These are extremely minute: a billion billion times smaller than the smallest atomic nuclei. The theory describes these ' atoms of space ' in mathematical form and provides equations which determine their evolution. They are called 'loops' or rings , because they are linked to each other, form a network of relations which weaves the texture of space" They are not in space because they are in themselves space ... The equations of space and matter no longer contain the variable .'time' Each process dances independently of its neighbour . .. The illusion of space and time which continues around us is a blurred vision of this swarming of elementary processes.. " unquote Mike

. Well yes, very much so ! I can not pretend to be an expert, but I have very much followed the thought processes of Prof Lee Smolin over the years. I think it would be fair to say , he developed the idea of loop quantum gravity ( although I suppose nobody can claim anything . ). Similarly he has been responsible for the moving ideas on " Time " .( over in the Perimeter Institute in Canada). Now Rovelli , seems to be taking up the, mantle! Of both loop quantum gravity , and the perceptions of time This diagram from CARLO ROVELLI , Illustrates his interest in quantum gravity . He also talks about NO TIME , within the quantum particle responsible for gravity . ! That is quite incredible ! Mike

.Wherever he is , the institute seems to have come up with some pretty interesting research , as to the nature of " quantum gravity " To me , it is encouraging that gravity , possibly has such a start in life, around 'here' somewhere. But obviously , like everybody else , people are trying to reconcile this with Geneal Relativities role in Gravity . It is rather Fun ! Staring into the caldron of creation , whoever or whatever is responsible . It is surely here or hereabouts is the origin of mass, gravity and ( space-time ) ? Is that not so ? Mike

. I have come across an Italian Institution , who are looking at the region of research ,dealing with the Quantum nature of Gravity and Space-Time . They are encountering the difference between this and the General Relativity Version of Gravity. On the quantum side they are finding a 'granular ' nature to gravity/Spacetime . It would appear that time is contained , to within the granular form , and has no presence outside the grains . ( granular ) Mike The Italian Coordinator of the research project is Carlo Rovelli . Link http://www.cpt.univ-mrs.fr/?lang=fr Carlow Rovelli Link :- http://www.cpt.univ-mrs.fr/~rovelli/ Ref ( Uk. ) http://www.city.ac.uk/news/2016/april/city-researcher-and-academic-collaborators-to-host-prestigious-theoretical-physics-workshop-in-florence,-italy

.Well you seem to have an interesting background . What are you proposing ? That we can discuss . As AJB said we are right up against the very start and unexplored area of the " Birth of the Universe " , particularly how :- Gravity may be one of the fundamental Constructions and backbone of the Universe. I appreciate we are getting nearer And nearer the start zone . Here you have to chose between ' all sorts of 'way out ' solutions for the start of the universe , as it includes GRAVITY ? And the nature of GRAVITY . It would be appropriate to say that :- Whoever or whatever set the 'whole ball rolling ' with the universe , would have had to get there original calculations or processes right , such that , we would end up with what we have today ? Mike

Yes but that's what I said 100 posts ago ! " The medium for the gravitational field /wave was like ...a ripple ..in a pond " . " Only pulling your leg ? Lol " Mike Ps I am hard on the heals of the originators of this scientific thought. I am stone throw from Rome , Piza , Empoli. The great universities of Bologna , Pisa . And Galileo, etc The atmosphere is thick with their Aura. Even though they have delt with their " mortal coils " their atmosphere continues .

. What ,I have come to realise, in my time to think about GRAVITY .and its role , and condition in the Universe, is :- It is ALL important to the universe . It is fundamental , and foundational . The whole universe is structured and held together by Gravity . And it is probably No coincidence it was ( I believe , if I am right ) , the first Force to break , in the succession of symmetry breaking which occurred initially from the great Overarching. SUPER SYMMETRY , at the very beginning of the structuring of the four gauge forces that arose in the very early universe. Namely GRAVITY, ELECTROWEAK , THE STRONG ATOMIC, ELECTRO-MAGNETISM . I hope I have those named right ? So if Gravity was the first to break from SUPER SYMMETRY then it is foundational to the whole universe including ' WHATEVER' .... ' Structure or Substance that exists and keeps the universe held in its past, present and future state " , it is there and exists in SPACE-TIME as GRAVITY ? Mike

. Now, it has got to be explained. I have looked up tonight in pitch black . From this far south the Milky Way can be seen rising from the horizon at 40 degrees leaning like a fallen tree. Sitting just south but above the horizon is the constellation of Sagittarius. Within this constellation is " the teapot " , with handle , lid and spout . The spout and just beyond the funnel end is the main part of the Milky Way centre. Right there are 200,000,000 stars collapsed into a black hole . The gravity waves coming out of this centre of the Milky Way must be enormous ! The specticle , the beckoning, " I am gravity , supreme , understand me, and how I work " I am in rapture ! Mike ( that was a bit poetic , somebody a few pages back , suggested that might be an avenue to explore . )