Mike Smith Cosmos

Because in the subject we are discussing , space time is supposed to be getting curved , by the general state of gravity relevant at this particular location . I want to know " what is actually getting ' curved ' " . Not its name ' Space Time ' . What it actually IS .? It is not too much to ask for surely ? If you said and offered me " do you want one of these? I would reply " one of what ? Here I am asking " what it is " ? What is this Space - Time , that is getting Curved ? What is it ? Mike Ps and you can't just say , " Space is Space and Time is Time " that does not count ! I just suddenly got my sanity back , I was just about to reach for the phone , and sign myself into a mental institution. You have rescued me from the edge of lunacy ! Even though that is not the answer to " what is space time " , at least I know I am not alone ! I need to go and lay down ! Phew , so near the edge ! The top of the glass looks like the universe . The bottom of the glass is the space time in the universe . They both look fairly similar . BUT the bottom is water , substantial, refreshing . The top is nothing ! Yet both look and sound similar . One is real , the other is nothing ! The big question is . What IS the real bit ? Mike

. I have resurfaced ! I previously asked . ------------------------- Quote " X squared /a + da de da , etc does not throw up any image of anything . You mathematicians , when you see or hear a formula , go into some form of ecstasy an no doubt get some form of meaning that you are happy with. If you describe space in a bunch of formulae , my brain goes 'numb ' . If you tell me gravity causes a bend in the fabric of space , then I start getting excited. Edit ( there is something actually there getting bent ) ? What I do need to know in this instance is " what exactly ( in reality terms ) is Space or Space - Time that it can be bent or curved or what ever . Is it a field , if so what sort of field , grit field , rubber field , electromagnetic field . Atomic field , I know space is curved ....by gravity .... But what is IT Is it material , bits, fields ? " ----unquote ------------------ I have just read your comments since then . I went out and I am not sure you have given me a ' strait' answer . I do not mean that disrespectfully . I just mean , I still do not really know " what quite is out there in substantive form ? Namely . "Is there something tangible ' there ' . Not just a geometric idea , or geometric measurement . If there are two measurements , say ' of time and of distance " . What TANGIBLE thing have you measured ? Not just an arbitrary piece of space time but a " thing A FUZZY BIT OF SPACE TIME , but WHAT IS IT ? " at a particular time and a particular space . And do I need two probes , one to measure passage of , or , instantaneous time , and one to measure curvature , say ? WHAT am I measuring it ' on ' . What is it ? a field ? What is the field composed of ? What am I comparing the time to ? I am genuinely trying to separate arbitrary values ( say geometric points on a mathmatical graph , and imposed time duration ) I want to know that the ' things ,I am measuring on , are not imposed values , but measured values " but of What ? On what " What is this substance. " SPACE - TIME " and don't say it's a geodesic or I will shoot myself ! Mike

I am going out to look for a 'hole ' I will see what I come back with . Mike Ps. ( excuse me I have to go out on business for the afternoon . That is real , catch you later )

No not at all . But if you say Jupiter is over there and the earth is here . If we look half way between them gravity has distorted space -time there . What am I looking at ( there ) if I can't see it , o.k. .. But what is ' there ' that I can measure , test , probe . And see if it's bent . Where do I poke my ruler to measure , how do I make a time measurement to see if it's changed ? I am looking out at nothing , space , or do I spin a top, or drop something in a space ship , to see how it falls? Mike

Then I am 'Sunk ' . Because I can only see things in my minds eye in ' Images' , however strange and convoluted, but images of what I construe to be REAL. Not mathematical constructs of something ' real ' . So a curve is space , I can imagine , but put in X squared /a + da de da , etc does not throw up any image of anything . You mathematicians , when you see or hear a formula , go into some form of ecstasy an no doubt get some form of meaning that you are happy with. If you describe space in a bunch of formulae , my brain goes 'numb ' . If you tell me gravity causes a bend in the fabric of space , then I start getting excited. What I do need to know in this instance is " what exactly ( in reality terms ) is Space or Space - Time that it can be bent or curved or what ever . Is it a field , if so what sort of field , grit field , rubber field , electromagnetic field . Atomic field , I know space is curved ....by gravity .... But what is IT Is it material , bits, fields ? MIKE

. As with the electro magnetic field ,you guys helped me establish quite what was out there that the electro magnetic field could establishing itself in . Now , I wish your help to tease out , what quite is out there , that the gravitational field , which you indicate has something to do with space itself . But now we are talking of shapes , curves , measurable geodesic geometry . I need help to establish quite what the geometry is 'IN ' .or. 'ON' Now I know you want to say it's just there, in space . But I need a bit more than that . That is like saying I will draw a line in a vacuum . I need to 'pin you down ' a bit . With something I can identify with . Not just a mathematical operation ,something tangible . If you would not mind . Please . There , I have asked nicely . Is there any way the ' Higgs Field ' has anything to do with this ? Or was the gravitational field something that came out of the first break with supersymetry ? Mike

. First Devine being or just laws of nature ? Second : mass and energy from somewhere .? Third : space time affected . from ? Forth : space time curvature , / Gravity ? Considering these events . 1. If I was going to create a universe , or I was just the laws of nature . I or It would need to make sure that something so large would not just dissipate to the four winds , . It would need some large , thorough inbuilt system to keep itself together . So something like gravity would be essential . Strong, far reaching and pervading everywhere. 2. These are the ingredients of the universe . Matter to be, to exist , to be real . Energy to do , to happen . 3. Space infers a place to do it or be done , Time is the scroll of destiny , when things happen . 4 . Curvature must have some connection with this link between gravity , spinning and acceleration . Maybe like ancient man thought he was on a flat earth , until we worked out it was curved and spinning . Maybe the same is True of space and the Universe , it's curved and spinning , and we don't realise it yet . One massive dust and grit filled sphere of matter spinning in a complex way . I know these are a bit scant . But it might create a talking point , as we appear to be straying into areas , little known about . Mike

With the stone in the aeroplane seat . Yes it was great . I also tried to drop a concrete lemon and a fresh picked lemon , exactly alike , from the top of the leaning tower of Pisa. Although a local Italian helped . They would not let people with heavy objects up the tower . So I did it from the top of a nearby Piza Hotel . I thought Italy was the home of science. However my wife did think I was crazy . By the way both lemons were recorded reaching the ground at the same time ! ..the effect of Gravity is acceleration .. Now this series of steps to see what is actually out there . 1,2,3,4 My guess is " the universe has inbuilt acceleration " in other words it's either falling inwards fast , flying outwards fast , or spinning ?

.Let's just take a ' rain check on that sequence ? You are saying :- First : divine being or just laws of nature ? Second : mass and energy from somewhere .? Third : space time affected . from ? Forth : space time curvature , / Gravity ? Not sure wether this is in the order you mean ( different or concurrent ) ? Or where all this inter galactic stuff comes from that gives space curvature , and where it comes from ? One , two, three or four . Mike

. No ! For me there are too many ' everything is everything ' , I need to know what is the source of what ? Otherwise it's like "trying to pick yourself up by your own bootstraps " as we said in olden days . Perhaps " lift yourself up by pulling on your shoe laces " would be a today's translation . Mike

. O.k. Well I apologise if I have put words in your mouth ' so to speak ' It is very easy for me to get hold of the wrong end of the stick , what with seeing maps is frozen metal plates and ripples in water ! However I am on a life time quest to find out if I can " what the dickens is going on here , or out there ? " If I could dare to ask , as it is very relevant to what we are discussing : - Do you see it as :- ( a ) all the contents you list , your statement ," the universe is full of gas (mainly hydrogen and a small amount of helium, and mainly ionised). It is also full of various forms of radiation from stars, as well as cosmic rays, neutrinos and (probably) dark matter. " .my question is " did these cause the gravitational fields to be the shape they are ? ...or ( b) Do the gravitational fields ( wherever they have come from ) , cause the space to be the shape it is ? ..or © neither , something else , if so what ? Mike

.Ah ! So it is different concentrations or positions or states of the interstellar 'dust ' , contoured and shaped by Gravity ? If that is it ! Then that makes me happy . If that is what you are truly saying ? Can you illusidate any more on these " particles, grains of dust " . Is the universe full up with this ' stuff ' from one end of the universe to the other ? Mike There is no chance the particles are made of rubber ? Is there ? ....joke

Thanks . Sort of o.k. JUST ! Only minutely just ! But it still leaves me with " What in reality is actually ' there ' ? Is there something tangible 'there ' or local or nearby . Or has it come about from some remote distance , that just happens to cause those ' things ' measured to happen or exist at that location .? ( but really there is nothing of substance ' there' or anywhere nearby ( local) . ....... ........ In other words what is the " rubber ," of the rubber sheet ?......... I had fond ideas somehow that space was jam packed with miniature items ( things ) ( don't know , like micro miniature loops, dust, virtual particles , things coming into existence and disappearing , dark something or other, strings , quantum foam , goodness knows what ) but something ? Not nothing . If not , are you saying it is just a field set up by all the mass in the universe , pushing and shoving , and this is what we end up with this Gargantuan field everywhere, with its Twists and Turns ? If so I think my brain will just melt into a miasma of liquid foam . I want to be in something . I do not want to be a fish that has jumped out of its goldfish bowl and am flipping around on the carpet outside in -- No Water ! And I don't like ghosts ! Mike

I have to be careful you guys are not just saying:- " Shut up , and just do the Math" which has echoes of what went on with the early days of atomic theory . You are making sense with the models , in as far as showing me how far the gravitational field 'effects' and how it can be mathematically illustrated in " rubber sheet " form or " hillside contor map " form . Both very illustrative in themselves . But what I am asking is :- What is actually there in ( dare I say it ...' Reality' ) . O.K. I am not asking for actual ' piles of grit ' , but that would be nice if it were that ! But one you have mentioned " Gravitational Force " and " Gravitational Field " , which is a start . I do understand the symbolism of contorts on maps and rubber sheets , but I still want to get a description of :- What exactly is being modelled here ? What in actuality is there ? Again if it is a field " what is maintaining that field " ? If it is a distance, direction , hole, dent, curve , whatever . " what is the hole dent, curve, whatever ". IN ? I think the answers are :- MATTER and FIELD , ...if so , there needs to be some how's ? It is sounding similar to the electro magnetic field issue :- namely are we talking about a ginormous gravitational field set up by some stupendously massive gravitational mass at a distance , or have we local ' something ' that provides the contours in gravitational field of which you speak? If so what is local to sustain this contoured field ? Or/and what is miles and gazzilion miles away to sustain the contoured field ? And what is actually ' There ' , local or far away ? Mike

?Surely the geometry of space and time is describing 'Space' and 'time ' as some form of shape or size . If that is the case:- both those commodities must 'exist' as real entities . Geometry is a mathematical description , but what is it actually a description of ? Namely they must have some form of existence and texture of ( reality ) , so as to be shaped and measured, in principle ? Are we talking of space having some form of material nature ( no matter how fine grained or ' bizzar ' it is ) . It must 'exist' , so as to be curved or identified as of a quantity of something ? What are the recognised ingredients of this ( space and time ) that it may be curved, even on a massive scale ? It cannot be a curvature of nothing , it must be a curve of something ? Surely ? You speak of ( or I speak , then you speak ) Me "Which begs the question ? What exactly is the NATURE of the GRAVITATIONAL FIELD .?" You " The gravitational field IS space-time." This sort of stacks up ! As one of the first things to separate in the very early universe was the gravitational force broke symmetry with the electro -week force and separated the gravitational force as a distinct gauge force ( as I understand it ) . Mike . I thought one of Newton's laws was " something will continue in a straight line unless it is acted upon by a force . " So presumably the force is the force caused by gravity ( by way of this curvature of space ) . . I have dropped something heavy from my nose to my lap , when we are speeding steadily down the runway . It falls strait into my lap. When the pilot puts his foot down , and we accelerate down the runway approaching take off , the same heavy item curves into my chest as it falls . This presumably is the acceleration due to gravity. Gravity is an acceleration ? Thus ! Curvature ? But is this , the curvature of which you speak ? Mike . This is pretty impressive maths , which I am sure describes what is going on accurately , and conceptually . There must be a way to discuss what you are saying is going on in " Real terms " , even though it may not be accurate , or even conceptually exact . For instance ... Well ... I cannot do one ......., as I do not know what is going on ! There must be words like " this is pulling on that .." Or " that is bending under some form of ' tension' ..etc I liked the description the other night by prof Brian Cox . Gravity is pulling everywhere , and the best shape that can result from the pull of gravity Is a SPHERE . Hence all the stars ! Mike

. But as far as I know " photons are massless " yet they , as you say are seen to curve or bend around , well galaxies , areas of space. However that would happen if the photons were massless , but move , as per my previous argument , through the electro magnetic field . The electro magnetic field is .....curved by space time ....? . .... Due to its previously identified constituents . Thus the photons follow the curvature of the field , not of space time itself? I might be hopelessly mixed up here. But I can't see how a massless , which has no inertia , or anything that can not react with gravity , as a massless object can not , in any way , follow the curvature if it has nothing to react with ? And how can it react if it has no mass itself ? Mike

This presumably is only applicable if 'you as the observer ' or ' a 'thing , having mass or inertia ' is involved . If there was no mass involved, no curvature would be seen or felt , I presume . If you were a massless detector or observer , you would see or feel NOTHING .out of the ordinary ? Thus curvature of space would have no relevance , I suggest ? Mike

.That's where I went wrong, is it ? I never took account of the curvature in space time . Yes officer! I must remember that one , for the next time I have an accident ! "It was not my fault , it was a local distortion in space time ! I presume then, that the LIGO experiments , do this sort of thing , in there experiments ? This still does not help me ' visualise ' what quite is being bent, "Curved " , twisted ,distorted ? You know me I need a picture , would clear jelly do ? And if it would ? What is the ' real jelly ' ? All over space time . In can't be nothing , it must be somethings? Jam packed virtual particles, or what ? Mike

. Yes but WHAT is actually being SHAPED. Measured for angles , geometry length , etc If you walked down the ' High Street ' , articulating curves in the air , and making measurements of air , and twisting your head to gauge angles . Yet there was nothing there ! You would be ' Locked Up ' for insanity or some other mental abberation. You can't just say there ' is nothing there , but you are measuring it ' . Surely Mike

.So the space time continuum is ( in this case dealing with , is NOT the forces of ELECTRICITY and MAGNETISM but rather the GRAVITATIONAL FORCE ) :- Then the equivalent is the " Gravitational FIELD " ? , having a " (changing) geometry of space and time." Which begs the question ? What exactly is the NATURE of the GRAVITATIONAL FIELD .? Are we talking of more quantum particles, virtual particles ,and other stuff ?.? etc as we were with Electro Magnetic Fields ? In this case we even have visible and invisible massive , stars , galaxies, molecules, dust and gas , by the " shed load " distributed throughout ' Space Time ' , do we not . These must surely shape 'Space Time ' into all the contortions you describe ? Quote ( " The (changing) geometry of space and time." ) Then we are back to the question " What quite " is being changed, distorted, squished, having its geometry changed ? Mike

O.k. If this is what is roughly what is present for The Electro- Magnetic-Field and the propagation of Electro Magnetic WAVES. What is the equivalent for The Gravitational-Field and the propagation of Gravitational WAVES ? Mike

.Oh good, then I am normal . I can go on to reveal the remainder of the ' Metal Map ' and the new expanded Aral Sea ? Some amazing prediction from 250 years ago ? Left by some visiting futuristic overlords ? Mike i

. You mean , I suffer from some form of Mental Dissability . Called " . Apophenia. And Blatant Pareidolia ? I knew I had a problem , I am comforted it has a name . Is there any use for this skill, like helping people find there way out of a Forrest ? Or the hinterland of Russia and Siberia ? I was going to suggest some highly creative, Sirendipedy, was responsible for a very interesting ' apparent map ' with all sorts of meanings for the world's immediate future. Because if I lift the picture of the ( World ) , it would reveal a new dimension to the Aral Sea . . Mike

We have spoken or mentioned , Coincidence: ... sirendipedy is a fortunate coincidence: Here is an example I found at the bottom of a river two weeks ago !. Mike Ps. The story behind this is :- I was walking the dog by one of the ancient rivers running near where I live ( the Culm ) . At this time of year it is not in flood , so I was able to walk out , on one side of the flow, on a pebble bed in the river . Clearly sand grit, ancient stones and round pebbles had been washed down and consolidated , compacted, and remained ,year by year on the bed of the river, with other detritus. I gazed at the river bed speculating as to how far the pebbles had come in recent times. They looked fairly blackedned, and had some form of blacked thin surface algae or some other biological covering . I noticed a white glint coming from a partly buried , thin, rusty , piece of metal. It did not come out easily. As I carefully prised it out , still under a centimetre of river water, it came out about (4 inches by 9 inches ) . I identified it as a small part of some discarded kitchen appliance from a 100-200 years ago . It's metal ( iron/steel sheet construction was covered in an enamel white surface . The surface was shot through with a multitude of fracture cracks. The piece had an uncanny resemblance to something I knew and identified. As I turned it it became clear a part of it resembled the coast of Scandinavia. As I continued to examine much of the coast went right up through northern Russia . Although not totally complete , I gives me a " Sirendipedy " type feeling whenever I lay it down , alongside a map of Uk. Europe, Russia and moving into more southern countries.

.I think ultimately things will be for the better. As that's how the universe is made and the direction it is heading . However , I do also believe we are soon to go through a very difficult transition period . As many different directions, all point to massive change . Exciting but difficult if we are not adaptable . We need to be "Very adaptable , ." Extremely adaptable . " Mike