Mike Smith Cosmos

. Well there we go then " charged quantum particles " mostly . So we have an electro -magnetic field , spread out across all of space , sprinkled with charged particles . A quantum foam . No wonder it is an ideal mmmmmnnnnn ( facility ) for electro magnetic waves to travel through . Mike

. Thanks for that ! Would you be so kind as to give me a list of the associated particles . Mike

. Thank you for your comments . I think optimism is a fine thing . I genuinely think though , that the universe has an inbuilt mechanism to get better . I believe this is true for the material content. Land masses , worlds, star systems , galaxies and the universe as a whole . But also in time for living beings . Where one can take this ' condition ' . In the near future , remains to be seen ? We may face a period of major upheaval which one might say that is getting worse. But in the long term perspective ' things will get better ' . As I believe this is an indemic nature of the universe. Mike

.O.k. If the word medium is as offensive as aether , then I have to think of another word like 'Field .' I am of the understanding that light and Radio waves DO REQUIRE a FIELD to propagate through? Is that not so ? That field as far as I can work out is The Electromagnetic Field which permeates all of space. Which I am of the belief I have spent the last week tracking down to the pre recombination times to symmetry breaking . Then identifying it coming out across all space-time ( as space and time itself expanded) to be there is all space? What I am not sure of , is it held there by dint of local charge or because of a massive potential field . And if there are topological bends in that field or bumps , a photon or electro magnetic Radio frequency wave will interact so as to change projectors accordingly ? I can imagine the field being there , everywhere ,in space , but I have the sneaking feeling you are going to tell me ( there is nothing there ) at that point I start crying . Surely there has got to be something there ( not matter ,but electro magnetic field with all its topological contortions and bumps ) so that when a photon comes by it has something to interact with ( if necessary) ? Please tell me that is true ? Mike

Interaction map and possibly interaction trap ! Sleeping on this medium and interaction business . I must say I am happier with the Electro Magnetic Field being a Medium . Although as you say not to all. But to photons and RF waves the electro magnetic field is a medium . I am a Happy Bunny . Good Night But I have woken up with a start , and re-read your last few posts. I thought I had it , that the Electro Magnetic field could be thought of as a medium , yet you have just pointed out the dangers of an example where it can NOT be treated as a medium . So can the Electro Magnetic field be called a Medium or not ? Mike

I need to get my head around all this . I think my i pad is going to catch fire ! Or was it my brain? Mike

. Yes you are right , I think for a while I have gone ' field crazy ' . ( it's sort of like ' cabin fever ' but worse. ) Ok the electro magnetic field , loosely as a medium . I can go with that as a model , as it rests much easier with me . As I have needed that field structure as a sort of medium for : photons to move in , radio waves to move in , and other EM. waves . And since I have sort of pinned down the source of those EM FIELDS . I feel happier with that too. Now I need to contend with these gauge bosons . I need to think on that ! Your comment :- If there is a physical medium, we have to be able to measure things about it, and measure our motion with respect to it. Now, this has already happened. Back 300-400 years ago, folks noticed that the apparent position of a star changes over the course of a year owing to our motion; this is called stellar aberration. One explanation (Bradley) of this is that we are moving through a medium. Fast-forward a few hundred years: Michelson and Morley figured out another way to measure this speed using an interferometer. Except instead of getting ~30 km/sec, they got ~0. Two very different and incompatible results. How can you be at rest with respect to something and also be moving with respect to it?. I think this has to left for a while , until we see what's really going on with these gauge bosons , photons. , etc in association with this ELECTRO - MAGNETIC FIELD . ( which may or may not be a medium as we know it ) You see I think of a EM field as being fixed by something that is causing the field . I can not at this moment understand WHAT is setting up this EM field .I have tracked down WHERE it could possibly have been set up . Now this field Is in the massive expanse of space , setting up the field ? Or is it zillions of local charges perhaps vibrating setting up ELECTRO -MAGNETIC FIELDS ? Can anyone answer that for me ? After that , it is all this interchange with photons and gauge particles ? Mike

. Where/ what is the source , in the above ? And what is the receiver ? Mike

O.k. I appreciate the concept and possible experiments. Yes I will get a set of values that describe this magnetic field , and of course I could do the same with a charged van de graph electrostatic generator . But in both these cases , we have a source of both the electric field and the magnetic field . Attached to something , like the table . What has been the quest in this thread is where is and what produced the electro-magnetic field across space .? And can this field plus other fields constitute a ' medium ' and as such does it act as a vehicle for light and radio waves to cross empty space . Of course if space is not empty , but filled with some ' other ' ' something ' then all is right . Unless of course you are saying gazillion of photons act as a medium ? Maybe you are saying that ? In fact I could ask , are you trying to tell me that the electro magnetic field is there, and it acts as the so called medium or framework , or if you don't like the word medium , for connotations with aether. I am happy it came out of the early symmetry breaking universe , but what supports it ? Mike

O.k.Spacetime curvature can influence everything else. ( any exceptions ) . Where does Higgs field , dark energy , dark matter fit into the picture ( if at all ) ? Can you tell me if my picture has any truth in it . Or corrections needed. Or something fundamentally wrong in it. I tried to piece together things discussed as best I could . I just get a total block when " nothing " is there . Unless some long distance force is acting across vast reaches of space , holding everything apart or pulled together ? Mike

Yes, I can agree with what you are saying . As a high value pulse of acceleration , might make you think you have been ' hit 'with something (mass) , when it might only be an artificial turbine acceleration or snatch , with no mass present . But surely all this other ( stuff) , including fields , photons , dust , whatever . Do they not constitute a medium . How can a field exist , ? Unless it exists IN SOMETHING so as to have a reaction with another electro magnetic fields. Light , radio waves , Am I right you are describing two fields. 1) The electro -magnetic field ( throughout universe ) 2) the electro magnetic fields passing through eg , photons , radio waves , etc Mike Ps I have heard expressions like " photons mediate the Electro Magnetic field " , is this what you are getting at , . If that is the case , I find it difficult to think of this , as it sounds like " picking yourself up by your own bootstraps "

.. Ok I am trying to get my handle on what is happening. I have listened closely to Mordreds explanations , and maybe I am picking up this wrongly . Or as someone said "this is semantics ". I appreciate I have a preconceived leaning toward ' something ' being present to maintain the electro magnetic field ' locally ' through a cloud like medium rather than some 100 quad trillion volt field being held from either end of space . Here are a couple of quotes , that indicate a local solution. MORDRED QUOTE " Now lets look at a massive particle. For simplicity this particle only binds to one field. This binding causes a resistance to inertia change. Some particles interact with several fields and gain invariant mass from each field interaction. So in the above thinking a field can have " medium like characteristics. " . ( my inverted commas). However as energy is a property and doesnt exist on its own its more accurate to state that the particles that mediate and interact with the " field topography form the medium." ( my inverted commas ). Unquote " This discussion brought up this ' topology ' bump which caused a reaction , or interaction . So something has a Topological distortion , I can not see how this is not a distortion in ' something ' ALSO another quote Quote " So in the above thinking a field can have medium like characteristics. However as energy is a property and doesnt exist on its own its more accurate to state that the particles that mediate and interact with the field topography form the medium. " Unquote Ok. This 'something' could be all the other fields , and bits, and pieces, all the general junk in space , or something totally unknown to us , but not ' Nothing ' you cannot trip over a nothing , but you can trip over a bump in a topology? But it's bump must be in something , surely . Mike

So I think I have grasped the information sufficiently to see the origin of the Electro -Magnetic field at the very early time within the 300,000 year recombination event . The ' escape' of photons and the formation of atoms / molecules after this 300,000 year recombination event , lead to the future ( after 300,000 years ) expansion of the universe composed of :- Atoms, some molecules, as the early giant stars formed , Photons , Cosmic Background Radiation , clumped dust particles , and of course the expanded VARIOUS FIELDS . As I am particularly concerned with ,:- ( THE ELECTRO MAGNETIC FIELD . also , molecules, dust particles ) most of which make up the medium for propagation of Electro Magnetic waves , photons , etc . See following diagram :- One presumes , it had to be this way . In the order coming away from time (0) . Namely the electro magnetic field needed to be present , held within some form of spacial medium , so as once the universe had cooled sufficiently for free energetic electrons to recombine with nuclear protons and thus make atoms . The medium would be transparent enough , and very importantly CONTAINED an ELECTRO-MAGNETIC FIELD . The photons could then propagate across this field , being electro magnetic waves in there own right . I hope this sounds roughly right ? Mike

Well o.k. Time would have been somewhere after t= 0 , and before t= 300,000 years . One or two of the forces would have started to split off , certainly Gravity, , , not sure if the strong nuclear force , broke away next? , . Then the electro weak , then the time we want is where the electro-magnetic force broke from the electro weak ? I imagine there has been a calculation for the timing and temperature for that to occur? If I can get hold of that temperature and the time of that separation , that would be good? Now quite how charge figures in this break, either before or after the break ? and how it figures? I presume the pressure laws still apply at that time PV/T. And I guess pressure (P) will be pretty high. Quite how charge and electro magnetism behaves at extreme high pressure ? Volume ( V ) is somewhere very small compared with the universe of Today. Quite how the charge and electro magnetic field appear at this time , I am not sure , but obviously it is measureable ( in theory ) There must be a lot of charge about , as when you look at the " standard model of particles " there are a lot of bits of charge , around across many of the particles . Mike

O.k so what would I be looking for HERE. ... Charge? Force ? Time ? Mike

. What you are saying here , is no doubt , a very succinct , correct , and scientific answer. ( much appreciated) . What I would ask then , is, Which , or what , is the measurable bit , in the scenario, that I have ended up with above . Namely the source of the ( to become the ) Electro-magnetic Fields as they came out of the symmetry breaking ( occuring at the break from the ELECTRO WEEK FORCE) .? Before the CMBR ( approx 300,000 years. After the Big Bang ) . Mike

.I went to sleep and never woke up! I am lost , in a sea of mathematics . The last I remember is someone leaning over me , trying to resuscitate me , sprinkling words like " differential geometry . " I am confused as to wether I am in a dream of ' fictitional mathematical constructs ' or 'reality' . I can't wake up ! This is important to me ! . .. -------- To know where I am ? Mike There must be some recconsilliation somewhere, somehow .? , between what is some mathematicians, 'theory' and what is actually there in 'Reality ' ? I am finding it difficult to focus , and see ? And know whether I am in a dream or reality ? There must be some 'pill ' I could take, or something ?

. I am going to have to sleep on that lot ! Mike

. You say 'the particles that mediate and interact with the field topography form the medium.' So are you talking about virtual particles or photons or what quite ? (Whatever they are) , are they 'moving about' though , to cause , or have caused on them , a reaction . Is that so ? Mike

. It's getting better all the time . I can sleep with ease now . Thank you very much ! Ps . You mention ' field Topography form the medium , ' that immediately invokes an image of shape , like the contours on a geographical map of some hills and valleys. Dare I ask , if there is a topographic bump or wiggle then, in the field , that sort of causes a " bump " reaction or something if we get near this topographic ' thing ?' With a particle , photon or other EM. Wave ? Is that the sort of thing you mean ? You say 'the particles that mediate and interact with the field topography form the medium.' So are you talking about virtual particles or photons or what quite ? Mike

.--------------------------------------------------------- What about me ? Don't I get a ( plus 1 ) for asking all these awkward questions ? Quote Mordred, on 22 Jun 2016 - 10:20 PM, said: Thats a possibility. Well done in noting that by the way +1 See comment above ! , ------------------------------------------------------------------- Like what is actually 'there' , at this point in space , now far away from the nearest star , half way to the Andromida Galaxy . I am sitting like some bird on a pylon cable at some silly high potential ,yet am unaware of this potential.? Yet I am aware there Is an Electromagnetic field right here . How do I know this ? By Believing I am in a medium which consists of all those force fields previously mentioned, having long since symmetry broken from their other gauge forces. But aware that if I switch on my little battery powered 10 watt transmitter , I will get a transmission going as ( I have been told ) there are a few relevant bits surrounding me . A Higgs field and an electro magnetic (EM) field , at least. Right there , I was guaranteed an immediate reaction to the Static EM FIELD . Sure enough my 10 watt carrier wave, reacts immediately with this field , and heads off across my medium in space , at the speed of light. Leaving the resident Electro Magnetic field , ( shaking a little , but sitting back waiting for the next reaction.? Musing about the other fields nearby! ( a bit of gravity field) a bit of (..???? Fields ) , dust , virtual particles , other ? Am I right ? Or roughly right , particularly about the reaction I create by switching on my transmitter , producing an electro magnetic field of my own , which reacts with the resident , medium , electromagnetic field? Mike --------------------------------------------------------------------------- See comment above ! ,

. As you would have gathered by now " I think in images " , not words , not maths , but pictures. . At time zero it was all together with the four forces ,plus Higgs, combination . The border of a border is zero . This represents Perfect symmetry. Symmetry broke in a succession of symmetry breaking processes/ events. Everything spread abroad across the known universe (Then ). At that time , a very much , much , smaller, Universe, taking its separate forces with it, as it expanded. Into a much bigger empty region. The Electro Magnetic, force field is one of the four fields/forces plus Higgs that ended up ( now) spread across everywhere ! So, if you like, " THERE OR THEREABOUTS is :- the origin of the electromagnetic field. At its separation ( or symmetry breaking ) from the Electro-Weak force. And by dint of the situation then , it was , Everywhere , in the then known universe. Quite what electrical potential , existed from side to side , or outer to inner , but presumably is was sufficiently Ginormous, such that when diluted by expansion , it was still going to be sufficient to support the electrical field we see today. Unless of course it shared its charge with a myriad of dust particles, electrons , or other minute particles ( or virtual particles) so that the field was divested evenly everywhere. O.k. I can see how the electro magnetic field came to be, ( one way or another ) or stretched from one side of the universe to the other . By some ginormous charge at the extremities . Mike Maybe the .--- -----------(WHOLE SPREAD of field forces and Higgs ) is the 'MEDIUM ' that I have been looking for ?? If it included TIME . ---- Then surely that is SPACE-TIME ? ---- ------------------------------------------------- I am still left a little bit nervous as to " is there anything there physically to be responsible for the field there, in the field , or trillions of miles away. ( as the field would die off by 1/R SQUARED ) "? In reading the BOHM reference , it sounded as if something physical ( even if only a force and a reaction ( particle ) was there , or nearby , , if it was a field ( not a potential ) but there is a smidgen of ambiguity, ( In my mind . ). -------------------------------------------------

.I am just meeting up with a PhD Dr in Physics in half an hour in our Cafe to discuss this matter . Let you know if we get anywhere ! Mike

. For the moment , just getting in through that wall of CMBR , and coming to terms with what quite was going on in that period before . Namely from time '0' to the transparency of the recombination when electrons combined with Hydrogen nuclei and some of the other low atomic number nuclei . ( He, Lithium ? ) , and photons set forth like the sun does nowerdays. Except a quadrillion quadrillion or so more powerful or voluminous and dense . I quite like your quote " earlier period when the weak field and the electromagnetic field separated out from the electroweak field. So, if you like, there is the origin of the electromagnetic field." which you speak of above .That sounds like a very likely place ( where it's coming from , and where it's going to ) Mike