Mike Smith Cosmos

Yes , but surely rockets DO need a medium otherwise they would just drop over the edge of the void , where space ran out , and there was absolutely nothing there , over the edge , nothing ! I thought Frank Willczek and Ed Whitton , had both come up with the ideas that there was something there , rather than nothing ? Perhaps it's this 'nothing' that I can not come to terms with ? Mike

.Well I can concede my understanding is woolly about space . I just wish I could get over this ' bit , that space is absolutely empty, and that electro magnetic waves do not need a medium ( however thin ' ) to function in. Even if the medium was 'very very very thin ' , then I could come to terms with it , in my head . But my head will not let me concede that there is not ' something more than absolutely nothing ' it does not have to be matter , it can be an influential ' field ' , ( the sum total of the rest of the universe 'field', but some form of field , not NOTHING ) , surely ? Somebody , tell me there IS something there ( even if we do not understand it ) , however thin? Mike

Seems very ' Wooly ' at the moment. Nothing of very much substance. There are other unseen things like ' air ' and ' water ' which are similarly transparent , yet we can have a good scientific description, both maths and physics . But with Space it's all a bit of a mystery ? Wooly and vague . Mike .

I think for something as vast and central to our universe as SPACE . We do need to define space well, if we are going to make theories and observations by the ' shed load' over the coming years . Do we not . Ok so we have some maths , but we need good sized portions of ' reality ' too, surely ? Mike

. A great scientist has recently said :- Science is in two distinct parts :physics and maths , , where the physics deals with the observation of reality and theories And the maths deals with the esoteric formulae which are exact but unreal . I probably have not quoted exactly but I will try and find the quote So the relevance ( if this quote is correct ) is : yes , if there is this beautiful maths that you have identified , then that is great and I will try to understand it. But I am after the REALITY of the PHYSICS which ( if this above quote is correct ) is the REALITY of what is there and going on . Mike

" At least these algebras (really nets of) are obsevable things. However, this approach is very difficult to work with. " Ok . If they are observable things , tell me what you see ? What do they look like? Observe ? Tell me in words , or doodles , what you observe and see ? I am teetering on the border of insanity ! Please tell me what you see ? Mike

' supporting structure ' sounds a bit 'realy there ' . But do you mean , more of a mathmatical structure, for calculation purposes only ? Or am I putting words in your mouth? Then we are back to there not actually being anything there ? Nothing , just a passing EM wave . I suppose , I can't visualise a self contained . Curled up in a ball or somehow , it's unlike anything in our experience? Maths is a construct , but vaporous , not real . So what exactly is it describing , what is the ' thing ' down there that it is describing ? Mike

The bit that worries me , is the idea of ELectro Magnetic waves travelling through nothing . ( some ghastly void of nothingness ) If as , has been previously stated , that there is not NOTHING . But rather quantum field theory , fields with humps or bumps . Then I suspect that is not , NOTHING . I am at a slight loss as to imagine , how that field is supported across vast reaches of space . Unless the substance of space , is this clever field , that just happens to be there ( from where it comes from I know not? ) . And if it is there , why has it not been referred to as a ' medium ' . Because that's exactly what it sounds like . A medium ( quantum electro magnetic field static ) able to allow to propagate a transmitted ELECTRO MAGNETIC WAVE , at the speed of light . ( not across nothing , but across this quantum field ) . Which I would like to refer to as a ' medium ' Or have I picked up the previous posts about ( quantum field theory ) wrong ? This is just a clever (name change ) , is it not ? Mike

. Unless of course , the quantum fields extended ' way out ' from the earth , as if they were attached, like the rings of Saturn . In other words as if those quantum fields were just another part of earth extending to vast distances from Earth, rotating with Earth , as if attached or part of Earths make up . When measurements were made with respect to earth , it's as if they are not moving ? In which case it would not be wrong , but perhaps not understood , or thought to be not feasible or likely . But not wrong ? However unlikely ? Mike.

.So my ' medium' is made of ' lumps in a quantum electrodynamic field . ' is that what you are saying ? So where is this ' QED field ' , emanating from ? If it's just there , then that is SPACE , and that is my MEDIUM? Is it not ? But where has it come from ? This is science ( cause and effect ) ? Mike Ps . We need to dig up Richard Feynman and throw a few questions at him . This seems to have echo's of " Which came first, the chicken or the egg ? "

. But if you are saying there is an electromagnetic field. 'there ' . Where and how has it come to be ' there'? Or was it 'there ' already ? Or are you referring to the ( electro magnetic field ) its brought with it ? If that is the case ? It is lifting itself up by its own ' bootstraps ' ? Mike

It's not nonsense . Not even current thinking , holds to a universe full of gaps of nothingness. There is all this vacuum energy , dark energy ( or cosmological constant ), there are quantum fluctuations , virtual particles , a whole sea of things , to name a few . All possible candidates for this replacement for nothingness. As a medium . All I am considering are miniature charges , which must be there somewhere . The whole tree of particles is studded with ' charge ' throughout the standard model of particles . Is that not so? All I am saying is :- That the EM WAVES of radio and light , can slingshot there way though this medium of charge ( electric field ) , because they themselves are of that nature , namely electrical-magnetic . (electro-magnetic waves ) . The whole thing makes ' sense ' . What's wrong with that ? It's got to be better than these collosal gaps of NOTHING ? Electro Magnetic wave , passing through medium of electrical charge field. SPACE Mike

. Forget the word ether for discussion , it's become a dirty word in science. Until it gets cleaned up , I would prefer to use the word ' medium ' ( the medium of space ) I am just looking for a medium , like any other medium . Water in the sea for waves, air for sound , rocks for p and S waves with earth quakes, a gold fish bowl of water for a fish to swim around in . These are all mediums for things to happen in . For electro magnetic waves the medium is space . A proper medium based on an Electric field composed of micro miniature charges. , everywhere . There can't be just NOTHING . Nothing , is for outside the universe, before the universe, not inside where there are galaxies and medium . Not galaxies in NOTHING . That does not make sense . The universe would fall to bits ! There needs to be some form of medium , space, where gravity , does its bit in holding it all together . Surely ? Mike

. If we look at some of the formation images of the solar system. Or other star systems for that matter, It is often illustrated:- with a complete plate of material surrounding the sun , ALL matter , dust , grit planets forming , all the rotating with the same speed of rotations. So any Michaelson - Morley experiment , with the residue of interstellar, inter Galaxy , dust , particles , maybe even miniature medium style charges , circulate together . This would produce a nil result with Michelson Morley experiment . So I have understood . Mike

Why not ? It's got to ' sling shot ' itself across this big ' supposedly empty void of space '. All I am saying is that like a monkey crossing a forest , swinging from one branch to the next . The electro magnetic wave , sling shots itself across the grid of point charges which exist everywhere across space as a medium ( grid ). Inducing small magnetic waves, as part of the sling shot process. As far as I understand it , space is brimming with ' stuff' like this . Mike

. Yes they do , they propagate by electro - magnetic waves , as many would have it ( in nothing , Kings suit of clothes ' nothing on ) . As I would have it , ( in the medium of space , namely , miniscule electric charge fields ) . Vibrating electric fields induce vibrating magnetic fields . Together that is an Electro- Magnetic field . The evidence is that they do this ! Mike

.That's not strictly true. Firstly I would rather refer to it as the MEDIUM of space. Unfortunately ' Aether' has had such bad press, it has been bandied around with scorn , that nobody dare have a sensible discussion about the issue of the requirement for a medium. We have sought a need for a medium for sound ( namely air ) . We shout warning words ( get out the way ! ) by pushing energy up through our vocal cords to produce waves of energy in the air. We have sailed the high seas for centuries using the transmitted energy of wind into the medium both air and of water . Also the waves have moved by vibrations of the medium of water to produce energy flow from one side of an ocean to the other. One day we might use this to power generators. We have detected the waves or vibrations of earthquakes, this time as the recipient of energy. As P waves and S waves , the energy of earthquakes has produced waves that practically travel round the world .Here the medium has been Rocks and soil . We have used the medium of space to send radio waves and light waves across space . The whole thing is a logical of energy seeking out a medium in which to operate in wave form . In this case with space as the medium it is electric and magnetic fields . If you go small enough just miniscule electric charges trillions upon trillions in a grid . When they are vibrated they induce magnetic fields and vibrations ( together E-M waves ) So it seems quite natural and logical that Electro .Magnetic waves would seek out a medium through which to travel . And there it is the medium of Space . Ram jam packed with miniscule point charges of electricity ready to be vibrated into electro magnetic oscillation and thus waves travelling through the medium at the speed of light . These vibrating fields ( magnetic and electrical ) take energy to start the waves in the medium . Just like all the previously quoted mediums for sound in air , waves in water , P and S waves in Rock . What is the problem , it seems , naturally obvious , As plain as day . Mike

. These 2 things are where the " kings clothes ( lack of clothes, that nobody dare say " the King has no clothes on ! ") * I thought that was what all this Ligo experiment was all about " looking for the true nature of space , and the propagation of gravitational waves across this " stuff " called Space . ( the water in the fish bowl ) ? One pound bet on it . ( they find the medium , and they find out it is the medium transferring the gravity waves) . Mike * for those not familiar , this was a nursery rhyme about a king who went balmy and paraded himself with no clothes on . All his frightened subjects , cowardly said ' oh look at the beautiful clothes ! . To make a scientific ' creative guess' at what the medium of space is . :- We already know that most of things require ' charge ' ( + and - ) and moving charge leads to magnetism , and electro magnetism is what light is , that travels across space at 'C' ( speed of light ) . So let's say that space is a medium composed of a 3 dimensional lattice of infinitesimally , infinitesimally ,small alternating positive and negative charges . + - + - + etc in three dimensions ? Very very very very very small. + and - charges. ..That is the MEDIUM of SPACE .... Mike

I thought that is what Einstein physics and Rienmann maths , did . Einstein .. Link :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein general relativity and waves Rienmann .. Link :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Riemann. Maths for general relativity and waves . As regards this " movement against aether" your comments above and ' debunking ' ' I think this is where ' a wrong turn was taken, not by you but , ' some time ago . Because of this we are in a ' kings new suit of clothes' syndrome , people all wanted to say ohh yes , what a lovely suit of clothes , when really he had no clothes on . Mike

. It does not need to be called Aether, invisible pink unicorns, or Father Christmas . But I would Catagorically put my bet on :- Space is itself a Medium , ( which can curve and allow waves to move through it ) Within which all the Stars, Galxies, Black Holes and other things we see and detect out there, exist. Mike

That's a bit sweeping . Are you prepared to go down in history , known for saying : . 'NO ' " Space does not consist of some form of ' Medium ' , Catagorically NO? Mike

. . -- So after all this: - IS. there a medium ? , called the Aether ( Ether ) which can support Electro-Magnetic waves, Gravity waves , or any other Space waves . Even if it is not the preferred model . Put on the shelf to gather dust . Is there a possible medium ? Is there , none the less , a possible * medium of space , for want of a better word ' Aether ' (Ether ) ?? Mike * Possible allows for it not being like other mediums , but something medium like , but something ? Not nothing, not total emptiness ?

. It seems to be that ' WE ' as the human animal , seem to be included in the list of endangered species . This time , now having been brought to the fore , as the 6th Major worldwide Extinction event That the earth has experienced in its Geological History. Could this be tied in with the other coincidences which appear to be happening to our human experience at this time ? As identified throughout this thread ? With the recent diliberation about the European issue, and the world wide issues such as , the economic systems , the political and national disputes, the migration phenomenon , etc etc . There is an ' air ' of panic and fragility about the world at this time . Maybe we feel this at a subconscious level both individually and nationally ? And are acting accordingly ! ..? Animals generally sense that something is wrong during and even slightly in advance of earthquakes, forest fires and other major disasters. Are we as humans , the animals that are sensing disaster this time as we are the sentient animal , at this time . Perhaps this is why 'we' appear to be stampeding about the place ? Link to animals sencing impending disaster :- http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/can-animals-predict-disaster-tall-tales-or-true/131/ . Is this what you were referring to early on in this thread , Ajb , I did not really pick up on this , Mass extinction event , recently identified ( at least me personally) . When you put that point up , I did think at the time to myself ( ' what mass extinction event ? , is he talking about? ) If that is the case then could it be ? Whatever caused the previous 5 ' mass extinction events ' , will similarly be , what is causing the current , ( 6 th Mass extinction event ) ? Here, pictures of animals sensing disaster, before it occurs ! Mike

. The trouble is .... " the human species is on their list of animals set for ..Extinction.. " Mike

Yes , I appreciate that. But if people are starting to ' stick their kneck out ' on a serious subject, like ' the evidence seems to point to an Extinction event in progress in our time ' , having similar characteristics to previous extinction events . Then I think it warrants a look. I tossed up in my mind today , " should I buy the physics book " Seven Brief Lessons in Physics by Carlo Rovelli " or the " 6 th Mass extinction event , " , I actually plumbed for the Physics book . Thought I would see what more comes out about this Extinction event first . Mike