Mike Smith Cosmos

Well , I do appreciate your explanation, Mootenman . I , have no intention to provide argument that is wrong. On this subject I am probably in a different mode than my engineering , scientific mental frame , and probably speaking from my heart . Perhaps the subject of God ,exists in another realm , that keeps it out of reach , for some reason or another . I would have liked to continue my original proposal of a simple HEIRACHY existing from God to Man to Fish , as it currently interests me , and I thought it had some value . However if it is not possible to do that here ,( or outside the rules ) without receiving a downgrading of my status continually , I will clearly have to stop, as I do enjoy being able to discuss things here, as I have done for several years now. ( I was under the misunderstanding that ' the Lounge ' was outside the normal constraints of the Forum , eg " Anything ". ) So please accept my apology , I will continue with a different ' tack ' . Unless of course , I happen on something , non controversial , to what is expected here on the Science Forum. Mike

Well , I have read the definition of " methodological naturalism.. " . And it describes it as a deliberate statement of EXCLUSION OF ANY CAUSES BY A " GOD " . So it is bound to not have any effects caused by God by sheer definition! (So by that reason , if one came up with 10 occurances of a Devine intervention say " the creation of ADAM " etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc , ALL 10 would be automatically excluded as evidence. So ANY evidence could never be provided.) .. That sounds like a ' which came first the chicken or the egg ' argument .. mike OK. I GIVE IN . ... SOMEONE IS DESCIDING TO WIPE ME OUT WITH -1, s .................. some way to have a discussion . ...... Bye ALL ! .... This behaviour is BARBARIC .... C(https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=barbaric+meaning&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

A) The issue of 'GOD' , is unlikely to be answered to every bodies satisfaction, in the near future . As most people would say " well let me see God then " . But that is impossible , as it is stated " No man can see God and live " , or words to that effect. On the contrary , the EFFECTS of God , are able to be seen and experienced. It was that , that I was looking for in my ' gold fish ' experiment. Namely if the HIERACHY is repeatable , namely 'man to fish / fish to man ' has certain characteristics that I can recognise. Then go looking for these same characteristics in the ' man to God /'God to man relationship ' . Although not definitive on a single test , it might lead on to further tests, which might be more supportive of the idea. B) World domination , I agree has always been an issue . But it is certainly rearing it's head , over the last 100 years. ( and currently ) . Again if I am correct in the point about a God . The subject of world domination was predicted for this time . Now I appreciate these two points A) and B), need more 'meat on the bone ' mike

Well I must say , I heartily agree with most of what you have listed there . I can also see why possibly some of the things that I have stated , do not rest easily with you. However I do appreciate your comments , and thank you for your support , and will try and honor your requests , when conversing with you . I would add that , my understanding of any revelation of the true nature of reality , is , that it is in fact , spread out across history , in different forms , at different times. Like :- Who am I ? Philosophy ? Religion ? Math ? Science ? What is it all about ? Where do we go from here ? I would say that proofs , have been forthcoming at different times , but in those different past times , the content has been entirely different. The list can consist of such things as :- How can I know an invisible God actually exists? There is a section of past history , where this issue was delt with . That has passed. Today , a different issue is coming to the fore , :- Which government should rule the world ? That's what every country is squabbling about , from one side of the Earth to the other ? And there are a few other issues , floating about . Every one deadly serious . Like are all citizens of the world getting a fair share of Earths resources? All these issues are deadly serious and very current ! As I am sure you agree with me . Mike P.s. I must apologise if I sound " flippant " sometimes. It is probably my defence from going ' stark staring bonkers'

Was everything science ? Was God included , as being an originator of all the matter, fields , living things , that followed a scientific style of EXISTANCE. Or did God himself originate all the scientific principles , so that he/she could build and maintain a Universe in a satisfactory form . Mike

I feel myself well and truely chastised .i will try and be a good boy ! -------------------- Well done guys , you have just given me about six (6) minus ones -6 how to support your fellow commentator , All that effort . i was not far wrong about the mob bullies , who used to kick people in the gutter in the 1960's mike

I think possibly , we are talking at cross purposes. This might be my fault . Having grown up in electronics , and relate science to .... Formulae accurately predicting levels . I thing possibly , I have missed a trick . It would seem that , a discipline , say in reproduction in animals has a less well defined process ( no volts amps , lengths , angles , times .) etc and generalisation of behaviour with no specific measurements is counted as science . If that is the case , it is no wonder science has made a ' land grab ' for any discipline that it can , write a description of behaviour and call it a science . I see now where , there has been a take over of more traditional sciences such as physics , chemistry , biology , etc Life seems to have overtaken me . I think I would need to split science up into The exact sciences , and the others . Without this science could be construed as covering everything , practically . Mike

I am not too clear , what you are saying here ? Mike

Yes , that is fine , but all the listed extras , like poetry , music , avocado salad . All MOST of these things are not FUNDAMENTAL . I am suggesting that HUGE . FUNDAMENTAL , UNIVERSE EFFECTING , LIFE EFFECTING things which are couched in non scientific context . Eg . Male female attraction and marriage . Difficult to give a scientific explanation to . Yet is Fundamental to the growth and development of the Earths Population. The weather , descovery , design , .. To quickly drum up a few , yet core to the development of civilisation . Mike

Social behaviour needs to grow up ! My points have been hard won . I despise secretive down voting . It reminds me of 'teddy boy fights' in the 1960's where gangs would kick some poor sod when he lay on the ground alone , with 6 thugs kicking him. It makes me want to ' vomit ' mike

O.k. I have no Idea who you are . For whatever reason , you have chosen behind NON IDENTITY . Like some coward who is afraid to say it to my face , with a reason and argument -1 . . What is it ? Are you afraid to state your dissagreement with statement and argument . Identified by doing it under a post that you are making in YOUR NAME . Saying I am awarding -1 because ......... if you cannot identify yourself , then .............remain a ........ In darkness .. good luck to you .......I hope you are never laying in the gutter and could do with a helping hand ! Mike ---------------------------- eg . I am awarding +1 because I think your point is well made or I am awarding. -1 because I think your point here is wrong and badly argued by Jim123 - ----------------------------- if you have not the courage to show yourself , forget it ,

Yes, I have looked in to that a bit. Quite fascinating. Unfortunately , my Chaotic dog is demanding a walk . Catch you later Mike

Quite so ! Mike but seriously the Universe needs this other side , other than strict science . It needs life , variation , flexibility , unpredictability , etc etc

Not magic , that just downgrades the enormity of the reality. Its like when I was taught mechanical engineering . metalwork . Along with electronics . We were taught " you cannot put a 1 centimetre shaft in a 1 centimetre hole . It just will not go , contrary to what you might think . You have to have ' slack ' or things jam up and will not work . I know that is put rather crudely , but I am sure that is how it was explained to us young engineers. I have worked with sheep for a few years , in the middle of my life . From " birth to the end of there life , they have one goal ! To end up ,on there backs , ' dead ' , so spake a North country farmer ! So the Universe NEEDS variation , space , flexibility, etc etc not exactitude , all the time . mike

Well , the spirit behind this thread , was to develope some form of HEIRACHY , in so much as to place myself , my fish , and if possible higher beings beyond ( above ) animals , in some form of structure. ( or HEIRACHY) . Since then , apparently , this term HEIRACHY has been used to produce the charts of all living , life forms , in extensive layouts . And supposedly ( GOD) , did not figure in any of them ! Supposedly because Science does not need or want a GOD , to figure in its Sphere of activity . Recent coments by quite well known scientists have said " we can go back in time and explain things with science , but only to within a small fraction of time , from the beginning . But no further . The advantage of incorporating GOD in the explanation of the Universe is :- It does allow you to go back , that last vital part of the history of the Universe, to extend the HEIRACHY . To the very , very Beginning . No doubt when considering , when and how to create a Universe , God must have reasoned that :- (A) there will need to be a very reliable, predictable , repeatable , aspect to the Universe for it to " hold itself together, allow everything to cooperate, da de da de da . So one of the vital necessities of the universe would be , scientific , predictable , measurable , laws , to hold the universe together , at the same time as expanding to make room for matter and life . HOWEVER, God , may well have seen the need for (B ) flexibility , unpredictability, a lot of space ,and a whole host of other things that are often thought of as UNSCIENTIFIC . In other words , all the things that seem to challenge the principle , that there could be a creator or GOD , BEHIND THE SCENES ? Mike

I have had a good think , and have come to realise , ------------------------------- There are two sides to this discussion , of which one side must be more right , than the other ( I think ) . Both sides have a similar problem :- (A ) If there is just SCIENCE , emanating from all the contents of the Universe . How did the contents " appear " or " get started " , in the first place ? (B ) If there is a " God " ( whatever that means ) , responsible for the creation of the Universe . How did GOD , " appear " or " get started " , in the first place ? But having thought about it for quite some time , I believe I have a solution ! ------------------------------- P.s. I think I am on the winning side ! Mike

As explained earlier in this thread " I personally have no problem whatsoever in accepting both science explanations as well as believing in a God . I make no apology for stating that although quite a lot of others get a bit sensitive ,in discussing anything that sounds like a God or Person from another world ." Within the Science Forum main subjects " . Which I do understand . This is a science forum and currently has no place for God or Space Man , due to the rules of Science ( as it currently stands ) . I personally believe we may be restricting our understanding ( not science in practice ) , but in theory . That Our future understanding of say a subject called " SCIENCE -PLUS" will need to bring in the notion of a God ( collective ) , somehow , to make sense of the universe as a whole . Or the necessary progress will be , unable to be understood or Utilised. That is what I in principle believe . I have spent my working life doing the normal Engineering - Science , bit . Which obviously needed the approach of Science as we both understand it . Now , however , being fully retired , am not constrained by that same stricture ( strictness ). To me , it does not matter any more , nothing matters anymore. I am free to think what I want . Which sounds at first pass , irresponsible. But I do not mean it like that . I am freed up to look at the " what if ? " questions . 90 % , can be " blind alley " endeavours. However it can be , that by daring to ask , or think a strange thought , one may ' turn up trumps ' one day . That is if you do not go insane in the process. It is those things , that from this ' nether region ' that I dare to bring to this forum . ( not the tripe , that is clear to me at this time ' is tripe ' , but those things that I genuinely believe are true , even though they may sound a bit on the edge. ) By bringing these up in the Lounge ( ....... Anything ) . I feel I am not doing wrong . ( no -1 's please ) Well , I am here trying to speak like a ' God ' saying in effect , like a father would think about his young children playing in the garden, near his work shed. " you are not to go in there , as Daddy's electric tools can hurt you. Don't go in , and if I have accidentally left the door unlocked, " do not touch daddy's tools AT ALL ! ............ The God version of this being .... the Tower of Babel was a " lock the door " statement , with language confusion . We are now past that ! As even if you can't understand the language , you can use a translation device . We are getting a bit near the " now there is nothing they can not do " Now I think it's getting near the " locking the garden shed time " or if it's accidentally left open , there are either some secondary precautions in place . Like switching the mains supply off in the house . Or an intervention in the garden to stop the kids going anywhere near the shed! The implication of this being :- twice this century' ish . We have been at a dangerous point in being capable to make a real mess of the world , Nuclear War , pollution , overpopulation , violence etc which we seem unable to resist . I do not think any God is going to stand by and watch the world go ' belly up ' . I think an intervention is imminent ! Like a bigger version of the " Tower of Babel " intervention . https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel Mike

I d'ont know , I just feel a slight pressure , whenever any scientific subject, gets anywhere near , the idea of the presence of anyone else in the Universe , Other than us humans . Things get very ' Touchy' from the ardent science camp. As if there has to be a guard against any form of belief , getting anywhere near a scientific subject. Lest it contaminate its ' Hallow Ground ' I am sure God himself or herself , thinks , " they need to grow up a bit , or they are never going to understand somethings , like " Why I placed a protecting fence around ' bla-de-bla " to prevent an accidental ' Melt Down of space ' , or some such other universally dangerous 'PHENOMENON ' ". I am sure that's why we have been placed on a world that we are only just getting ready to move out across the Universe. It's interesting with the " Tower of Babal " story of the occupants of Babylon building a tower to reach the sky . When a voice was heard to say " we must go down and confuse their language , as now there is nothing they cannot do to reach the sky " . It's taken thousands of years for us to overcome our language difference , and finally reach for the sky( space ) . And these things are not fable. A war was fought recently with Sadam Hussain in or near the sacred remains of Babylon in Iraq. As indeed the wars going on in that region are all treading on the historic sites in that whole Middle East region , from early Biblical times . ( Isreal , Syria , Iran , Iraq, Afganistan, Saudi Arabia, the Red Sea etc ) Mike

GRRHHHH ! So why am I awarded (-1 points ) . When I am in a relaxed Lounge environment , having a quiet glass of Presseco , chatting ( yes fairly heated at times ) with my colleagues . Where the LOUNGE is described as a place where we can discuss ' anything ' Perhaps (-1's should NOT be anonymous but have names attached . Then at least I could throw my glass of prosseco over them ) Having stated quite clearly earlier on , that I personally do not have any problem having one foot in the engineering scientific camp , and the other foot in the philosophical / religious camp . ( enjoying a discussion from both angles ) . Why should individuals want to drive me into - SILENCE - , here in the lounge , when I am ( yes having a provocative discussion ) , yet stimulating the thinking process on such a needy subject , as " quite how did we come about from nowhere , In fact how did the whole universe thing , come about from nowhere ? " Mike

What's wrong with that ? so did Michel Angelo , so he spent a great deal of time and effort painting this picture on the Roof of the Cisteen Chapel. Of God and a few others giving Adam a start in life . https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Creation_of_Adam mike

I do understand your reasoning. However the same could be said of a strictly ' centre stage ' approach by conventional science. If we cannot stick a probe in it and measure a value ' it ain't there ' ! Well that might have been alright while science was doing all sorts of mechanics , atomic and electric development. But now we have gone to the outskirts of the universe , the very small sub particles , the very old , the very fast , we are coming across some things that do not behave predictably. How do you not know , we might be having this issue with ' the concept of super being/s ' ? --------------------------------------------------- Perhaps for a moment , one should take part in a modern phycological practice of " a willing suspension of disbelief " Like ' what if there really is such an invisible .' Absolute horde of such beings ' what if they did start the whole lot going ? What if they did leave some clues? What if they are currently observing , and are not too keen on what they see? What if they are looking for some form of inquiring approach? What if they are giving us the opportunity to search for the answer to things Philosophical , that are in fact bound up in the very life systems we already have ? What if some of the answers are embedded in the very nature of things , such as I am proposing .? What if ? ------------------------------------------------------ Citation :- " Willing suspension of disbelief " https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief Mike

There is something very distinctive as I attend my pool ( with the goldfish in ) . My eyes gaze about the various goldfish swimming about . WITHOUT FAIL , ....I AUTOMATICALLY COUNT THE FISH . CURRENTLY 10 ( 7 gold coloured , 3 black ) . There was 11 , but when I counted only 10 , . I immediately combed with my eyes , and 'low and behold ' the Big fish was dead . This daily procedure of automatically counting to see they were all there , I could not stop. I then thought , is there a comparison with the upper HEIRACHY to us humans . Is there a daily count to see we are ALL ALRIGHT. . Then it came to me . There was some discussion somewhere between JESUS and some onlookers ( not sure who) but Jesus was heard to say something to the effect that " fear not ". " not a single Bird or animal , falls to the ground and dies without this knowledge being known to God . So there is the similarity of behaviour between the two HEIRACHY. Quite interesting . Found ref . ( Ref Bible Matthew chap 10: verse 29-31 ) Even we , on earth , have head counts to the nearest 10,000 . There appears to be a mechanism in place , the next up in the HEIRACHY, where the numbers of ' man ' and ' beast ' are known exactly . Mike

I am getting ready ! In answer to your comments . I think what I am attempting is a special case scenario. Rather than trying to state a special HEIRACHY for use with cataloging biological ranking generally . I am trying to establish " that a rule for certain positioning , say of Gold fish to Humans " which I call a HEIRACHY. Carries with it certain attitude and behaviour on both sides . Say respect, a gentle measure of fear, expectancy , pleasure , superiority! This is gold fish toward me. Whereas I have a certain ownership, concern for their well being . If I now attempt to take this approach when suggesting a superior to humans . I could look for the similar type of interplay, feeling , position ( HEIRACHY) . If I can find this anywhere , maybe I am touching on Gods territory . Do I get the same or similar type of interplay , feeling . Superiority , ( inferiority, Gods ownership , concern for well being, HEIRACHY? Be this only on an experiment basis . Will this test for the relevance of God in the relationship of man to God , God to man ? mike

. Well , you all seem to say , Many people have commented and done research on HEIRACHY AMONG LIVING SPECIES. Before I started this thread . , I was unaware of this . I coined the HIERACHY idea apparently after a long period , where others had used this Classification. HOWEVER , I do not see much so far which list , GOD ... HUMANS... FISH as a distinct HEIRACHY. This is perhaps because I am deliberately trying to forge a link, across these three species . Because they are there ...and I have access to all three. Two by dint of Birth and one by (Records , observation and Experience.) Or at least that is the proposal ! So , although I can recognise these other HEIRACHY 's represent a lot of research by scientists over the years . I am particularly interested in establishing the specific HIERACHY which I have personally been discussing . This so because it at least uses evidence produced by at least 2 , layers in the HIERACHY, and using much of Human History ' en mass', can establish the third member of the HIERACHY , beyond reasonable doubt, IF ONE IS PREPARED TO TAKE THE WHOLE EARTH SYSTEM AS THE PROOF , RATHER THAN AN INDIVIDUAL ENTITY . This we do with some of the other members of Heirachies , say the human being . Where we take individual cells , liquids , systems , to come together to make an individual human being ? This could be likened to a biological research establishment . Doing deep research and development over a number of years. Finally coming up with a drug that is used in treating xxxxxxxx. Similarly , I am saying a research and development organisation of immense proportions ( called GOD ) many , many years ago produced , amongst many other things , a species called MAN . After a great deal of brainpower, effort and manufacture . (Similarly with FISH , amongst many other things ) . Having previously done a lot of other work on atoms , minerals , and particles. Mike

Like my dog , I need to sleep just now , catch you tomorrow . Mike