Mike Smith Cosmos

Sorry if I am not explaining myself clearly. It has struck me for some time that there are a lot of TWO's There is This and that , positive and negative , very small and very large, electrons and protons, fermionic - mass orientated, particles and baryonic field , wave , orientated particles. Current 2 or pair being discussed. So is no surprise to me that there things like photons , that are as light as a kite , pretty well massless , that hare off as electro-magnetic waves across the universe at the speed of light. And it would not surprise me if this whole thing around gravity . If it is not the pair Partner . Namely Mass , that is the bit we normally think of as matter. Earth bound , affected by the force of Gravity , and seemingly now in association with Gravity Waves ( just detected ) . Now it follows , what are Gravity waves , what medium if any do the pass through , how is this related to ( Space-Time ) , what is space time , what actually is mass , etc . I am suggesting that Space-Time, gravity, gravity waves , fermions of some sort, matter , Mass . Are all part of the same camp or family . As Electro magnetism, e.m waves , photons , ( electrons - not sure about that one ) , massless particles , bosons , are all part of the other camp or family . I might have , or am rather sure of leaving out or missed a few members of the two families ( and not sure about electrons ) However this is about the gist of what I am currently trying to say . This has been building up for some time . ( sounds like an illness) Mike Oops , Strange We seem to have been posting at the same time. I will let you read my reply to AJB . Walk the dog . And come back to you . Mike Oops

Yes, but this is the gist of this thread question. Could it not be that there are two sections of Atomic activity . Bosons orientated and Fermion orientated. Those dealing with fields , waves like electro magnetism and energy transfer . And those dealing with mass , gravity , matter and energy storage , mechanical forces. And I was suggesting that the one on the side of gravity and mass was Primarily a Fermion , forces medium ? Notice these waves take their input of energy into the medium , not from a single disturbance , but by a continuous of wind on the surface , the waves form and travel uni- direction , along the. Canal . As indeed what happens at sea. Continuous high winds blow on the oceans , and waves star to form . These dissipate their energy On arrival at an edge of the ocean these waves, dissipate their energy . What a model , full of meaning . Mike

Yes. O.k. But I checked it out this morning . I went to the canal and heaved in a disturbance . What did I get " a wave " My conclusion was " it would not have done that without a " medium " . Namely the water. No matter how often I did it . The waves ALLWAYS went the same speed . Conclusion . The medium determines the speed.of the wave . All this sounds very familiar . , Mike

I think the missing ' stuff' is Einsteins Cosmological Constant ? Mike

There is that great big area out there , that is as vaste as the whole universe , and I am lost for words to describe the very nature of it ! That is ridiculous, I am 72 years old , and I have not a clue what space time is made up of ! Mike

I am not sure That I have the same depth of mathematical nomenclature as you have AJB let alone the mathematical skills . Remember I come from half a century ago . I think as far as I got was complex variables, matrices , Laplace and Fourier transforms . And radiation diagrams . You say words sometimes that scare me. Maybe they are just things I know by other names. I wish a description of space-time and gravity would tie me down to something tangible . Even if they have complicated names , they must describe things that people can understand otherwise we would could not recognise it , surely . Speaking in terms of plans, or maps , or diagrams ,or other patterns , all these things are not the ' real thing ' . Even if the real thing is not like anything we have ever seen in our entire life, we should be able to describe it , in terms of things we do know ! Surely . Mike

?. I must say , I do respect what you have been saying . If I have not made my gratitude manifest , I must apologise . I do look forward to your comments and encouragement. I joust with you , in order to ' hone ' my ideas . You have been , and I hope you will continue to be a sounding board for the ' as you say exciting area of discovery , namely Gravity . I too feel that way , even if I have not shown it to you. I ask you to bear with me in this matter and thank you for the help so far . As also Swansont's , MORDRED, , string junkie , and others I have struggled badly with this Gravity Field , I feel slightly better at the moment , - thinking of ' space - time ' as being actual Gravity Itself . rather than nothing . It's only a name , but it has connotations of 'something ' rather than 'nothing ' . To me , now there is something to influence , distort , wave about , alter , rather than just a measurement and a moment in time ( this to ' me ' does not sound as of enough substance ,. ) how gravitons fit in this remains to be seen ! Mike

Well there would be two measurements . ( at least ) Firstly the gravitational attraction at near pass at say distance R at 3 cm ( 0.03 meters ) a safe swing by . Then secondly at say 2 meters . Using formula Force of attraction F = G m1 m2 / R squared . Where G is the gravitational constant . m1 is the mass of the probe . Say ( 0.5 Kgm ) , m2 is the mass of the 1m x1mx1m Lead or Concrete Cube ( say 200 kgms ) . G the gravitational constant is. ( 6.67408 × 10 to the -11 m cubed kg-1 s-2 Or . ( 6.674 x 10 to the-11 Nm squared. /. ( kg x. seconds squared . ) F peak 1 = (. ? ) Newtons F. min 2 =. (. ? ) Newtons ...... Calculator needed . This should be an oscillating wave . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I have had a good chat with a mature colleague this morning . It would appear that there is some ambiguity as regards what exactly is the nature of ( space - time ) . It does appear it is GRAVITY. Itself . Now whether gravity is in fact a field in itself having qualities of particles and fields resulting in waves seems to be up for debate. Some feel that string theory has a place , others gravitons , other wave - practical duality. Others Gravity itself. Space - Time , itself being , GRAVITY . With all its distortions , wells and waves? As near as I personally can feel good about things . Is yes there is something there , there appears to be a gravitational field about all of Space time . There are waves and disturbances present in this gravitational field . Whether these can be interpreted as particles like Gravitons ? I think I will wait and see if they can detect ' a graviton ' . But according to the information and citations from MORDRED it will require a detector the size of Jupiter and a source for the gravitons , a black hole ? To prove or disprove their existence . Now what I am not sure of is ? Is the gravity ( possibly composed of Bosonic fields or fermionic particles of the correct spin to identify them as the relevant ' item ' Mike

. That presumably is , why this new space bound project LIGO 2 a million Kms across is for . as per science news . Mike

Is this a simple lab experiment or a group project . I found it a bit of a difficult read . ( not your statement ,but the Avix article . Mike

I think you are spot on there . And , as my comments to Strange , I have just made , illustrate . There is probably some interesting ideas around the subject of Gravity , that are just around the corner. Exciting really . Mike .Oh well ! That squashed that idea . I was getting all excited there , for the moment . Are you sure there are no bench experiments that can be done , with a big chunk of lateral thinking ? And maybe a big chunk of stone or a lead block ( 1 meter x 1 meter x 1 meter ) swinging from an Oak tree lower branch? Mike

I have to say , intuitively , I think you are right ! I just have this gaping ' hole '. , where my particular logic , which I appreciate gets up some peoples nostrils occasionally , is dogging me ! " There is something missing here somewhere ! ". It's saying to me . I would not be involving myself in these discussions about gravity , if I did not think there was something really ' Big' about to break the horizon . I can feel it coming ! May be it is a new discovery around gravity , gravity waves. Maybe we ought to be trying to do some ' bench top 'experiments with gravity. There is enough of it about . Right under our feet . We will kick ourselves , further down the line . " it was staring us in the face , why could we not see it " Mark my words . " There is a new area of scientific endeavour about to break onto the world scene ! Surrounding Gravity " Mike

.No I do not want that . I would love to accept it . I just have some , mental block , for some reason or another. It's not stubbornness . I wish I could see it . I have the feeling , I am missing something . With electro magnetism , I can comb my hair and pick up a small scrap of paper with my comb , or move gold leaves on an electroscope. I can pass a current through a wire and see a compass move . I can oscillate a current with a coil and electrostatics with a capacitor. I can make thus an EM WAVE move across space to another antenna. Tell me how I can manipulate space and time so I can send a gravity wave a short distance ? And detect it a short distance away ? Then I will willingly and lovingly become a believer , please! , on my blended knees ! I want to believe ! Mike Then I would say , are you really certain you know what you are picking up , or receiving , if it's never been done before ? It might have been a twenty ton truck that fell off a cliff a county distance away . And they have got the timing screwed up . I am not serious. But you are asking me to believe in something that can not be checked experimentally . Which I have been ' hauled over the coals ' for not fully performing with my lead filled toy rat zooming out of a cardboard tube , during my centrifugal force experiment . ( which worked incidentally , before the tube broke, and the Jack Russell ran after the lead shot filled rat ) Link :- http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/88420-centrifugal-forces-appear-to-act-opposite-to-gravity-how-is-this-possible/?p=867987 Mike

Yes that sounds great ! But I seem to be missing a trick here somewhere ! Perhaps it's because I have worked with electrons and magnetism in EM waves , that I am blinded to seeing. ' time and space ' being modulated by a wave . How the h... Do you modulate Time and how do you modulate space ? Or how do you make a TS Wave . Apart from swinging two black hole about over your head . Has it been done , locally , like in a lab , and detected as such ? Mike

To do the experiment , they say the detectors need to be 1,000,000 km. apart if possible in a three station system . By 2030 Mike

Wait a minute , if there is something there , gas, dust , stars , true they can be influenced, that is fine . And I would go on to posit there may be a whole lot more things , micro miniature particles, a whole sea of particles which as a composite make up a sort of grid of thin matter , that can be distorted by suns, energy waves and whatever. But I do not think you guys will have that , will you . You want me to believe that near empty space - time is allowing energy waves in g-d knows what form are passing across an empty vacuum? Now you say to me Electro-magnetic waves do it. Well I find that hard enough , but at least they appear to be crossing a vacuum as partners ( electric field - magnetic field ) oscillating against one another , self supporting ( a bit like those buzzing double ovoid magnets kids throw in the air , buzzing against one another) . But I do not yet see One thing crossing the void , let alone two things , ! Even if you say gravity is a thing ( that is only one ) . Even then I think you are saying it's Not a thing . Now if you were to say gravity were a thing and it was oscillating against a negative gravity counterpart or something , and the two somehow buzz or oscillate like an Electro-Magnetic wave , then my ears would prick up ! Something must hold that packet of energy , surely , like a wave on the sea. It's put in to the sea water by the wind and it has an UP part of the wave , balanced by a DOWN part of the wave , and it travels across the sea . Now what is equivalent of the ' sea ' in Space Time , what is equivalent of the UP and DOWN surely it is the gravity wave , but it must have a SEA to travel on . , Surely ? Mike Ps I could accept what you say about the grid of Space - Time geometry , being squashed and waves zooming across if there was some medium there , but you are saying ' there is nothing there ' ? Unless I am missing something really fundamental about things automatically zooming off at the speed of light ? See I can think in terms of a set of stood up dominoes a thousand miles long , and the first one goes down and zoom the wave travels along quite fast all the way to the other end . But this all requires 'something there ' a particle ' or a ' medium ' ?

. I appreciate your comments on these points , as I am genuinely interested in getting things straight in my head as much as possible unless I reach a brick wall that I just can not agree. So appreciate and will go through as answered 1. O.k. At a distance , but here I am say , running along with the gravity wave ( as a thought experiment ) . How do I know I am even traveling , there is nothing there . No markers , not roadside posts, just void of nothingness . At least will I see a star coming just ahead to the left a bit ? Will I be able to measure the distance as we did when we went to the moon?. But if I am in a stretch where there is nothing for a year, just blackness. How will I measure this distance? How do I even know I am moving ? How does the coming up star , as we approach , influence my patch of space time from so far away ? What can I detect in my patch of space time to know that it is being squashed up a bit , or stretched a bit from this coming up star , as I, we , approach . unless I can put some instrument out the window of the space ship to measure some feature of space time which tells me the lines of disturbance are changing ( squashed or stretched) . Do I hold a pendulum out the window to see if it gets attracted? 2. Covered by 1. Above 3. O.k a philosophical point ! 4. Now this is getting very near my deep questioning ! Now if the spinning Black holes are giving out energy as Gravitational waves , How , just how , is that energy crossing Space -time ? As a packet , as a mass particle cloudless , ? If it is increased bunching and depletion of space , how does that travel across the stillness of Space-time ? This is really into my concern of the nature of space-time . If it is being distorted even more . ' what is being distorted? ' 5. No. It has been said , possibly by Swansont , and maybe yourself that " the 'energy ' is a property in the ' think ' , " not a thing itself . " similarly yourself you say the disturbance is there in ' space time ' namely as energy in the form of a distortion , energy in the thing ' . But what thing , there is nothing there , so you say. If I was left to my own devices , I would say there was ' something ' there , all be it very finely grained , but something to be rucked. But you two guys are saying there is nothing there. You might be right , but I am finding it difficult , for all this energy, all this deforming effect due to massive objects , all these rucks and waves , all to be in Nothing ? Mike

.A) "these waves aren't in a medium." Then where exactly were they , 655 million years ago ?( , half the time they took to get here )? B)" So these changes have an amplitude, and a speed, and a wavelength and frequency " where were they ,When they were on their journey from half a billion years ago. , until today C) What happens if there isn't anyone observing ? . D) Energy is a property of things. It is not an entity unto itself. Ok . But it must come from somewhere . ( where ) . Must go somewhere during the last 1.3 million years ( where ) ? , E) what ' thing' was it in during the middle - Years of the ( 0. - 1.3 billion years ago )period Mike

I need to take refuge by painting a ' Mermaid ' . My mind has been ' scrambled ' trying to imagine Gravity waves moving through space time , when there is nothing there! If that is right , so are mermaids ! How can you distort ' nothing ' . ! Sanity at last ! Mike

[ . If I am understanding things right , there is some state in ' space time ' . All sorts of names like ' manifold ' etc One thing seems to come to the surface is tension and fields . Is this indicative of a presence of a lot of " fields " of various sorts and a lot of " energy " bound up in tension . I can understand the universe being permeated by both " fields " and " energy " . In the first place fields are required to underscore everything . And energy is required to create or keep things apart , such as ' say' the Big Bang being bucket loads beyond belief of energy , pushing the universe apart into its current tension spread across space time . So rather than being empty the ' Space Time ' is shot through with fields and energy . And as energy and mass are interchangeable (E=Mass x Speed of light square ) and the fields must have come from particles in some way or another , then the universe must be strewn with particle Mass ? Is this what the Gravity Waves are rippling through ? Mike

Yes , but it took someone with imagination to think , maybe Einstein " , well now "said Einstein ," there are electro magnetic waves , because they were predicted by others including maxwell. And we now use them in Radio Communication. So just maybe , gravity has waves in this ' general theory of relativity , that I have just produced . Now I need to see if I can predict ( Gravity Waves ) to go with this Theory " . Einstein must have said . And now nearly a 100 years later there is something to measure . And LIGO has measured something ? Mike

.What happens if you do not yet know what to measure , and how to measure it ? It does not stop it existing , or being hyper important to our next step in understanding the Universe and how it works ? Does it ? Mike

I am not sure that I can personally accept that " What things 'are' is of no consequence in science. All that matters is that those things have measurable parameters." One would never climb out of a hole , if you were completely unaware one was in a hole , unless you could visually step back and see that you were in a hole . You would carry on about your business as a ' mole ' underground eating worms , or whatever moles eat , and leading a happy life as a mole . Perhaps there is a whole big world or universe or even bigger entity out there to be discovered. But to do that we need to figuratively see ' what things really are ' , yes , no ? I personally think this is important when we are dealing with some of these colossal investigations of the Universe at large . Mike

?I was ecstatically happy , there for a brief moment, a sort of enlightening , scientific, philosophical , ecstasy , moment . Then this massive heavy brass pan , came out of the sky and lamp'd me one . " The only thing that may come close would be a KaluzaKlein theory on a supermanifold or indeed superstring theory" Ouch ! "Who said that . What hit me . " Mike

. Maybe that is it :- AJB You said " You now may want to ask what is space-time, what is the metric, what is gravity... " ? I am saying , or may be Strange is saying , or maybe Swanson , String-junky, you AJB and everybody is saying ... " Maybe space time has all this energy locked up in it , under tension ... Then .... May be by some form of disturbance or purtibation in space time will create matter and gravity ? " And may be by further immense disturbance ( like two black holes swirling about each other ) we see further disturbances in this highly energised fabric of space time , heading out as gravitational waves across this fabric of space time . " Eureka I have it ! " I think I need a drink ! I am in Awe ! Awe ref :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awe Mike