Mike Smith Cosmos

.Ah ha ! Now ! you have brought me back from the brink ! By those two statements , my sanity has been restored! That is what I was taught , all those years ago at college . Binding energy . I don't seem to hear it mentioned so often nowadays. Maybe it is , but I am not in the right circles to hear it . Binding energy . The curve that Dips ( bottoms out ) at IRON . Why most of the matter in the universe will ultimately be , if it is not already IRON. The energy that is released or gained when elements Fuse or Fission to move up or down the Periodic table of elements . The Energy of the universe " Bound up in matter " . Einstein's pride and joy ! " There she Blows , you land lubbers " ----------------------------- BINDING ENERGY ------------------------------------ That's what's powering every star in the universe as it moves through the Binding Energy curve from hydrogen toward Iron and from every Supernova onwards up towards Uranium . And your Second statement -------------- MASS. IS --------------- Of course , as you say. '. Mass is ' That was Einstein's other break through . Mass is Energy and Energy is mass E = m c squared Or as you say. ( mass is ) Now how to unscramble that in my mind , so as to understand this gravity wave issue , and Space Time , " I am not so sure ? " Mike

I am loosing my will to live ! I will end up diving into an Empty swimming Pool at this rate , having been convinced , there is water there , where there is none ! Or the other way round ! Mike

I understand about the composites. But our root is still . Forces = fundamental bosons . and fermions = fundamental matter.. I am still trying to get a handle on what is going on in ' space time ' and whether, in addition to distance and time being present in space time . That what exactly is , in the first instance is the interaction from any large mass in space time , before ever it causes any waves , namely still at the distortion stage . ( the rubber sheet stage ) What is it ( the star or whatever ) pushing out the way ? ( or sucking in ) is it pushing distances and time , is it pushing by some interaction between the mass of the star and ' something else ' present in space time ' namely loosely spread mass type matter ' or something else? If it is interacting with something else to cause the originating distortion , what is the something ? Is it derived from fermionic fundamental matter , Bosonic entities , even if it modified to some composite particle . Also , if now we have this change, disturbance, collision , spinning black holes ? Where is the interaction going on ,in the already distorted ( space time ) . In other words if the things are now converted to complex particles , what exactly is being developed into waves ? The bit I am missing at the moment (. What exactly is being disturbed ) ? If NOT fermionic . What ? Or is it current belief that its nothing ? ( I can't reconcile that last one in my mind and understanding of matter! ) Mike

But it must be something of substance ! Vibrations and shock waves and mechanical disturbances , do not go through a vacuum , or empty space ...Surely ? . . So radio waves ( electromagnetism as waves ) seems to go through empty vacuum . But sound, vibrations , disturbances , as far as I know , do not go through space. Especially from 1.3 billion years of travel. If they did we could hear the sun ! The mechanical noise, vibrations and distortions that must be going on , on the surface of the sun . I am out in a park at the moment . I can not hear a ' dicky bird ' let alone a deafening cacophony from the surface of the sun. So what is the " Glupe " . Is it a mixture of low density matter , both Fermionic as Bosonic , virtual particles , quantum particles, neutrinos , dark matter, what is it ? Mike

O.k. All over the universe there is this ' Glupe' called 'space time ' its quiescent state is sort of settled with all the matter throughout the universe rearranged into its pits and peaks where concentrations of spinning matter , like stars , black holes , or whatever exert a gravitational distortion in this ' space time ' sort of transparent ' glupe' . Not many ripples to speak ok . Then a couple of black holes decide to crash in on one another in a dance of death , and as they near amalgamation the fun starts and large disturbances in the ' Glupe ' radiate out in all directions , presumably by some inverse square rule or ( inverse r to the 3 rule ) . And by the time the waves have reached us it's pretty small. My lingering , nagging , desire is to get my mental handle on the ' disturbed Glupe ' . I know. It's called ' space time ' but for it to be stirred up by these twirling black holes , like thin consume soup , it must 'BE ' something? Does/ is Fermionic Mass , in any way , present in this ' space time Glupe ? Mike

. I thought fermions were things like protons and electrons which have mass . And I thought bosons were things like photons and other interaction particles which did not have mass. But did have fields ( like electric and magnetic fields ) Is it the difference in spin , that gives it mass or is that just coincidence ? I can't say I know anything about super gravity and gravity waves for that matter , maybe I should look it up ! In some respects , I thought this is what all this experiment LIGO is all about . Are there gravitational waves ? And thus what are they like ? Yes there are , apparently. ! And what they are like I hope somebody will tell us ! Mike

O.k.Thanks . I get that specific example ! Is that the only way you get gravity waves . How about things like imploding stars going to neutron stars. Or things going to black holes? Exploding stars going supernova. First generation stars going supernova . The Big Bang itself ? All these are changing their 'gravitational density ' ( if that is a correct statement ) . Will these too emanate ' gravity waves ' ? It all sounds a bit like a flywheel which was rotating perfectly smoothly . But now it's 'big end' bearing , has gone worn or bust , and the whole flywheel is out of balance . Thus vibrating , giving a vibration to anyone sitting in the car , or on their motor bike ! ( ooh my Big End has gone ! A statement from Biker days ) . I still find it hard to see how these waves are travelling across space . Unless space is some form of distributed fermionic grid , full of fields and fermionic mass of some sort or another , even if the distribution is ' fine ', or not very dense ? ( I am using the word Fermion here to indicate something with mass as opposed to something Boson like , without mass , but with associated fields like electric charge and magnetism, etc . If I have got things right ? ) ( but maybe I have not got things right ?) ( unless of course, unless gravity waves are some new set of orthogonal fields , at right angles to each other in the way that radio waves, electro magnetic waves , are orthogonal , at right angles to each other , magnetic and electric . If that is the case ' what are the two orthogonal fields ? ' for gravity waves , mass field and movement field ? Or what ? ) Mike

.Can you go into a bit more detail , and could you keep the explanation , in simple terms . If that is possible . Thanks . Mike

But I can probe the force , or rubber sheet , because if I step out of my window , onto a sloping plank , I feel pulled down the plank . Something in my neighbourhood is distorting the 'rubber sheet ' . The earth I presume . Trillions upon Trillions of Fermionic matter particles . And I am a ball of many many fermions . If I had stepped onto a sloping plank out in space somewhere a long way a way . Far away from any suns , galaxies, planets etc . I would be able to go out of my window , stand on the sloping plank , and " I would NOT be pulled down the slope ! ( at least only very very minutely , by some far distant dark attractor ) I probed and felt a force ( Gravitational ) . Now how do I make a gravitational wave ? jump up and down ? No, I am serious . How do I make a gravitational wave . Do I need a supply of fermions. Or do I shake the Fermions I have . Do I stand on a vibrating platform . Or perhaps I find something else something massive many many fermions , that is oscillating ? Mike

.. A) what is a Gravity wave B) what is a gravitational wave I thought Electro- Magnetic waves were able to exist and travel in nothing , because they were sort of self supporting . Namely as electric field collapses to a minimum it induces a magnetic field to increase to a maximum. Then as the magnetic field collapses to a minimum it induces an electric field to increase to a maximum. Then all over again , and again and again . Like a skipping rope being flipped , except this is ' self flicking ' the wave moves off at ' c '. Gravity does not have two states like E-M waves does it ? Or does it ? So how can ' Gravity waves ' , travel in nothing , unless space is not nothing ? Are we back to ' the rubber sheet' . Somehow by the presence of mass , the fabric of space time is disturbed into a new shape , which has the effect of other masses falling towards the mass causing the disturbance. Thus all of space time must be some form of field matrix . This is General Relativity is it not ? Then as something by way of a large disturbance in a mass , waves move out across this field at ' c' . Is that what is supposed to be happening here , in this LIGO phenomenon. If that is the case we should be able to probe that rubber sheet of fields right here 18 inches away from my face . If I poke it with some means . Then look at a position of a few millimetres away . If I am able to poke it , I should be able to detect the poke a few millimetres away . What am I looking for to poke ? Mike Yes you are probably right ! Sorry . But even so the signal has to go , up and down , 44,000 miles . So at 186,000 miles per second . That makes a quarter of a second . So you are right the other delay must be in the system and cables. Even so the signal will take a second to reach the moon , and from the Egyptian Pharos building the pyramids to today to reach barely a quarter of the distance to the centre of our Galaxy . Mike The following two POSTs by. STRANGE and STRING JUNKIE are very good . I do not want to meddle with these points right now , as I need to retire for the night . Take up tomorrow .

. Mike Smith Cosmos, on 26 Feb 2016 - 7:20 PM, said:in Science News ( Gravity waves ) . I thought there was possibly some form of Fermion grid that pervaded space , and only responding to fermion style matter ( particles ) , and so propagating ' gravity waves ' ? I am comfortable with Electric Fields , and magnetic fields being set up , one way of another by some form set of components ( coil, plates etc ) into a space . These can be probed , measured , and with a little bit of electronics , an Electro magnetic oscillating field to be set up and a EM wave is produced Which races away at the speed of light . I believe these are derived from ' Bosons ' and produce ' Photons ' that travel at 'c' . Now what is the equivalent with ' Gravitational waves ' are they produced by ' Fermions ' : - how can one probe them , and send them off at 'c' ? Mike

Very informative quotations , thank you. I was of the mind that , it was not the gravitational mass , that was being picked up by LIGO , but rather the sudden change , say by collision or explosion , or disappearance of mass ( say by annihilation , black holes self distruction , sun supernova, etc ) , not the mere presence of mass and gravity . Is that not so? I am not even sure what the gravity waves travel in? Is it in the matter side of free space or what ? Ps. I thought there was possibly some form of Fermion grid that pervaded space , and only responding to fermion style matter ( particles ) , and so propagating ' gravity waves ' ? Leaving electromagnetism happy to do its business in nothingness as Boson style matter ( particles ) , propagating as light or Electromagnetic waves / photons ? If there is some mechanical vibration present here somehow ( I cannot see that ) , or perhaps only here on earth with all our surrounding matter . Then my hand held detector ( being in my soft flesh body and hand will be well insulated from vibration . I have been thinking in terms of the experiment , sometimes undertaken with plates at very small distances with atomic particles where minute forces are detected , with plates being pushed apart. These I know are electrostatic ( I think ? ) . However I was thinking more in terms of the ' Gravitational Waves ' being measured at similarly very short distances , perhaps . Now we know they are there ? But I am still not sure what the waves are in ? I will go and study up ' Janus' discussion Mike Pps . I am still of the opinion the speed of light is reasonably slow ( time - astronomic - wise ) . We do see reporters nearly tripping over themselves when conducting tv interviews with people abroad . The em waves move slowly enough to put a 2 second delay , by merely going some 22,000 miles up into space and back . I think I did the sums one day to see if I could set a pulse of Electro Magnetic wave off at one side of the lab and pick it up the other side . The delay was in nano seconds , which most oscilloscopes can cope with nanoseconds . Also the image of the Pharos erecting the pyramids will barely be a quarter way in toward the centre of our Galaxy ( Milky Way ) . Let alone toward another Galaxy . By these measures ' c' is comparatively measurable ( slowish ) .

I think Richard Fortey, has shown this to be true in his recent series on the current changes happening on islands such as Madegasca. Madeira , Hawaii etc Here the top down approach is the driver , rather than the bottom up . Link :- http://www.radiotimes.com/offers/travel/news/2016-01-18/forget-sun-sand-and-sea---hawaii-is-paradise-for-nature-lovers Mike

What was the system doing in principle ,to distinguish their gravity wave from ( the two collapsing black holes ) from general interference ? Presumably their signal was very very small ? And why could that not be used on the handheld version , I was describing above ? Mike

My illustration of the large steel ball at Pisa, is slightly ' Tongue in cheek ' . I am really asking , now that it has been established that there are Gravity Waves from some collision say of 'black holes or supernova collapse ' yet very far away in time and distance . . By the time , now it has reached us , it is very weak . Surely now we know they are there , we could surely get the same if not better gravity waves , by looking NOW , more closer ( like a meter away ) and by a mass collision far less substantial say two (2) heavy metal spheres. And that the measuring device could ? Surely be at a much smaller scale ? Say a meter or two ? Maybe I am wrong in my assumptions ? Mike

Now it has been proven Gravity Waves exist , could we not do a much smaller experiment , a lot nearer home ? Say with 10 meter arms? We could allow two steel balls to collide , one falling under gravity toward a much larger steel ball. And with a device not dissimilar to two pencils ( tubes ) at right angles , with some form of fibre optic detectors at the far ends , hand held detecting the ' Gravitational waves ' on an oscilloscope . After all ' c' the speed of light is quite slow , as demonstrated by reporters trying to discuss on T.V. , where the signal goes 40,000 miles return journey to the communication satellites. I think it would be orders of nanoseconds for the pencil type detector . Last time I was through Pisa Airport , there was a steel ball a meter across swinging from the roof 50 feet above , celebrating Galileo . You could let a steel ball from a ball race , fall from above , and detect the 'Gravity Waves' with your hand held " Gravitometer " ? Then we would not have to detect something super massive , coming from a massive distance , traveling for 1.3 billion years , so faint a signal as to require the large detector . ( now we know the Gravity Waves are there ) ? Mike

.quote ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Surely :- This is all coming back to the difference of 'things ' in nature . ( Nature of Things . De rerum natura. Lucretius ) Firstly . Things that have Mass that are subject to a certain type of laws , and a whole range of values of moving criteria. Which might well be subject to the 'medium' they move in. Secondly . Things that are Effects like quantum's of energy, forces, packets of energy , that move at the fixed speed of light / EM . ( namely 'c' ) . Which themselves are 'medium less '. These are described in the standard model as distinct different entities. Are they not ? Edited by Mike Smith Cosmos, Yesterday, 07:26 AM. ," ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- unquote Two different atomic entities . Different types . ~~~~~~~. BOSONS . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ FERMIONS ~~~~~~~~~ 1 . Boson . Link :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boson . . 2 . Fermion . . Link :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermion Simple comparison of two sorts of ' entities ' ( spin and characteristic ) . Link :- http://www.particleadventure.org/fermibos.html Fundamental difference in Fermions and Bosons ( division of entities in the standard model ) . Link :- https://www.theguardian.com/science/life-and-physics/2011/aug/13/1 Mike

I think ' the sea ' is a good model , in its own right. Like most models , it applies in an aspect or two or more , but not in all respects. But , like skimming a curved , flat , circular stone , over the surface of water , enables one to get across the surface water far further than you could actually throw the stone :- so Your curvature of space , ;- and thus the trajectory of the stone is in fact across a slightly curved surface, caused by the gravitational effect of the whole earth on the water surface. I know there are a lot of mixed metaphors here , however it's good for possible explanations from diverse directions . After all we are talking of gravitational waves across 1.3 billion years worth of travel ! Mike

Well! I am not the expert , I am just a mortal being trying to get to grips with what's surrounding me ! But, as I perceive it ' mass is like the billiard Stick , that I have hold of . With a great deal of effort I give it a thrust and it transfers the thrust to the far end . At the other end is another mass ball that receives this thrust as an effect transferred by the stick . And pops into a pocket or goes on a further journey. So the cumbersome stick does not go anywhere . It just lumbers along with effort, momentum , mass , medium , and all the attributes and restrictions of mechanics . Whereas the effect , travels almost instantaneously , at the speed of light to the far end of my game . These words that everything is particles , I find , confuses me . It helps me if I think in terms of ' things of mass' and ' effects travelling at the speed of light or maybe at different speeds if the medium so effects ' But this is just a personal head model to help my understanding of ' the Nature of Things .. De rerum natura. Lucretius ' . Like at sea , the waves look as if they are travelling across the sea. The water ( mass) is going no where , just up and down . The effect ( wave ) is travelling across the sea as a packet of energy , finally breaking on some distant shore . And depositing its energy into/onto , distant mass ( a swimmer, or a sea wall, or a beach ) . Mike

Surely :- This is all coming back to the difference of 'things ' in nature . ( Nature of Things . De rerum natura. Lucretius ) Firstly . Things that have Mass that are subject to a certain type of laws , and a whole range of values of moving criteria. Which might well be subject to the 'medium' they move in. Secondly . Things that are Effects like quantum's of energy, packets of energy that move at the fixed speed of light / EM . ( namely 'c' ) . Which themselves are 'medium less '. These are described in the standard model as distinct different entities. Mike

..I am still struggling with the speed of gravitational waves being assumed so easily as 'c'. ( namely the speed of electromagnetic waves , light ,RF. .EM , etc ) . Other than some sweeping statement . " Nothing can exceed the speed of light " O.k. I can see , that the interactions of mass particles , being based on charge , or neutralised charge , being limited to some speed or other . And photons traveling at ' c ' being electro magnetic ' even though massless. But what is the mechanism of Gravitational waves based on , such that it is limited or exactly equal to 'the speed of electro-magnetic waves .?' What is the vehicle of their propagation ? When it is not based on Photon. Principles . Either ? . Has anyone made an accurate measurement of the speed of Gravitational Waves ? I thought this experiment was all about finding if they even existed? And if there is a ' rubber sheet ' . What does the rubber sheet represent . ( a gravitation medium ? Or what?) or are there gravitons zooming about like photons ? And how do they function ? Mike

Just gone down to the Jurasic coast this morning . Lyme Regis . Here the base of an ancient river , sea, has today exposed its life , . Rocks tumble off the cliff. I picked one up off the beach . It had a crack on its side . I put a tiny stone in the crack and .. Bingo a fossil. Last saw the light of day 100,000,000 or so years ago The fossil hunters out today The Jurassic Coast At home , studying up the evidence . Ammonites :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonoidea Mike

That's fantastic , so my idea of an image history of the universe is not too ' far fetched ' Mike

Sounds really good . Will the images be up to the quality of Hubble space telescope but only exploding , or violently moving matter ? Do hope so . Now they have had success , they can get more money . Mike

. O.k. That is great ! But I imagine they can compute exactly which direction , the signal , did in fact come from? So as to project a three dimensional picture ,if necessary ? I hope so ? Then we can look forward to some gravitational images of the exploding universe? Mike