Mike Smith Cosmos

Which ' juncture ' do you mean by " the beginning " ? Where ? quite ? did we change from just hydrogen and helium to ' all , complete ' ( near as dammit all ) set of elements.? Were they all present in the " Molecular Dust Cloud )? The spinning disc of the solar system ? The infant earth 4.6 billion years ago ? Mike

In trying to bridge the gap between , 'No Earth' , and the ' early Earth ' 4,600,000,000 years ago , And to today . I would like to know quite what elements, came together to start off the infant earth . Were there only less diverse , different elements, molecules present at Earth Birth, the rest being generated as time passed over the last 4.6 Billion years . Or were all the elements that we have today present at ' Earth Birth ' ? Thus were they all presents in the spinning Solar System Disc ? Or Molecular Gas cloud? Or were some elements generated during the formation of the spinning disc ,making the early system ? Thus :- What ' Element wise' , Molecular wise, Mineral wise, appeared When? And where ? ... To get to where we are today ? Mike

Our mental state say " Happiness" can be conveyed in a picture . So marks or images that invoke " Happiness" in a painting can be responsible for conveying a little happiness to another individual . In an art session , yesterday , myself and a fellow painter pursued this idea . The result was " the Sun " . As I like painting Boats , in five minutes the composition was created . In such a quick order happiness was indeed created and relayed. It makes you wonder ' what a turbulent , chaos of feelings must be created in us on a daily basis, as we are exposed to a succession of images in our daily lives . Mike

Today I took the Jack Russell for a walk by the local river Culm and the river Otter. They were flowing over respective weirs. It was very level at the top of the weir.The water flowing over held together for the first half of the fall. The water tore apart into foam globules during the second half of the fall presumably under the pull of Gravity. Note the water flowing over the weir remains intact to nearly the bottom .( top picture ) The water breaks apart after part of the fall ( second picture ) So , on the one hand Gravity is pulling throughout the water falling . The bonding holds the water together for half or more of the fall. I would suggest . Finally the bonds are torn apart , I would suggest at the white foamy parts at the bottom . . I am not sure I understand what you are saying about ( surface tension ) and first order? The atoms responsible for these bonding forces within water are ' born ' in the centre of stars when many of the elements, as atoms, were manufactured by immense temperatures . And the molecules by later combination, presumably in dust clouds in outer space , before their arrival here on earth , by the generation of the Solar system some 4.500,000,000 years ago ( is this paragraph about correct ? ) Mike

I think ? That quantum issues in the universe start right here at the RECOMBINATION. ( roughly 300,000 years out from the Beginning . Start. BigBang Or whatever . When electrons (-) were drawn inextricably in toward the protons (+) , ( hydrogen and helium nucleus ) , but did not go right in to the nucleus , because of quantum issues. I think . But if you think about it naked Gravity was afoot. And quantum was afoot . Not forgetting there were an awful lot of Photons floating about , trapped in their Plasma sea . What dance came about ? Mike

Yes , I accept that you were not pointing to quantum gravity , neither was I expecting , or still do not expect it .I am merely stating that I was hoping for some insight within the five observations , purely based on intuition. The progress of discussion seems to have found itself , looking over a fence, with gravity on one side, and quantum behaviour on the other side of the fence. Namely the quantum behaviour of electrons , and the effect gravity has on a individual electron. This might be a fertile area for those trying to square ( quantum gravity behaviour) . I am not up to that sort of maths , or theory for that matter. However I am good at sensing those areas of science mystery , that get resolved later. I am getting a good sense of the multi state condition ( , gravity, electron , photon ,quantum. Electro-magnetism , oscillation) . Just hope somebody gets the same , sense , and sorts it all out . Mike

.But in this case it is YOU that has prompted the insight , by drawing my attention to the fact that Gravity , which I saw having contact with the Water molecules and their link outward to waves at sea and boats in deep ocean , and columns of water being raised by me to the wonder of my children. You went on to tell me that gravity will interact with the electrons of the molecules . Here you pointed the way to the insight . To the electron ( A Quantum Particle ) ! .I think we are homing in on the area , you speak of ( QUANTUM GRAVITY ) . The electron is the very root of quantum . It was first perceived by Niels Bohr to exist in association with the atom in only specific energy levels with associated frequencies . Max Plank went on to associate a certain ' Constant ' . Planks constant (h. ) with these set ( energy e and frequency f ) . Thus was born the QUANTUM era . Link See planks constant Wikipedia :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_constant The value of Planck's constant is h = 6.626070040 x 10to-34 joules seconds . . Or 4.135667662x 10 to-15 electro volt seconds We have GRAVITY coming in from the sea to this very spot by the way this thread has developed . If that is not exciting , inspirational , warranting an insight , I do not know what is . Mike

Perhaps we are looking at a junction where QUANTUM meets GRAVITY . That is profound Mike

Yes but surely some things , sometimes, must ' excite ' you. Where you want to jump up and down , and say " hey look what I just worked out , or thought ? " Mike Yes , I understand that . I was probably using the wrong word. Not continuum . But more everything from small to large should be treated the same , with respect to gravity . Unless of course , somehow gravity is quantised, then we really are in trouble from an understanding point of view . ( Hey ho ! Maybe there is a value of gravity that is quantum like a ' gravity-plank'. Or ' Plank-Gravity' , below which things weigh nothing , above which they weigh in ' nplank-gravities' ) Now that's enough of that ! Mike

I think we are cross posting somehow . Sorry it's my fault for going back editing , which does not come out your end until you refresh your examination of a thread . Either that or I am going completely balmy .? Mike

Well I was trying to explore the effect generally of Gravity on seawater/water . And it seems to have come out of the discussion , that whereas it would normally be imagined that with big things like haulage trucks , people , worlds, lumps of iron . Etc. That gravity is working on the whole Mass , as an object. And they either fall down a cliff, spin round a sun, with Gravity pulling them as a whole . I was rather categorising sea and seawater , as one of these large objects. But with this discussion we have reached the idea that gravity is working on all the internal particles( electrons, protons, molecules etc) . As well as large items , like trucks and seas. But maybe gravity does NOT work on large objects as a whole , but only on the Aggregate of all the little particles? It was these individual particles that I was meaning as internal . Perhaps I should not separate them into , inside and outside , as this is of course only as we see them . Really everything is in a continuum from electrons to worlds, or from whatever is the smallest , to whatever is the largest . Mike

Yes, but there has been 60 posts and 4 Pages of very profound observations and comments here , This surely must amount to something " wonderful, profound , and insightful ? " No ? My daughters thought it was about 20 odd years ago :- Mike Ps I have forgotten what I meant by that comment , about inside and outside . I think I was meaning that gravity has an effect in the big wide world/universe , as well as inside the structure of water , with its electrons , atoms , molecules and the substance ( water) itself

Yes, I can see that . As water in the space station pictures shows water in Globules. However , I do think it shows gravity along with bonding , to be a shaper of worlds , if not a shaper across the Whole Universe. This picture of Gravity , in itself must be Wonderful , and possibly ' insightful . Due to its 'external' expansive capability and its 'internal' delicacy . Mike Ps. I know you are going to say ( " but we already knew that ! " ) . To me, It is a wonderful insight .

The nature of sea water and probably any other water is that there is indeed a self levelling mechanism , made up of all the particles , atoms molecules basically by a balance between on the one hand Gravity . On the other hand all the bonding forces existing in the matrix that constitutes the liquid. As wind,or human intervention, gently or otherwise blows across the surface raises parts of a wave as they begin to be generated that are balanced by the tensions induced in the liquid, which do not die down , due to being within the structure mainly . This push and pull sets up oscillations that we recognise as waves ( both up and down ) . Given prolonged exposure to wind these oscillations can build to 6 meters or more on high seas . We are working within the internal atomic structure and bonds mostly . Thus the oscillations do not die out easily . When they do , perfect flatness survives. This is unlike gases, ( where particles would just blow away) . ( or solids where issues of purity arise) . By human intervention , eg doing experiments to raise water by setting up a large oscillation we are dealing DIRECTLY with internal forces of nature held within the structure of the matrix. Also Gravity has direct communication with the fundamental particles. I would suggest that is this ' Easy' access to the internal matrix that is responsible for the initial (4) observations. This is unlike the other fundamental forces which are not usually contacted other than through intermediate systems . The nature of liquids make this achievable . The experiment with the crockery (5) has a different activity yet still involving bonding , this time not because it is a liquid ,but because it is a ceramic , which has its own interesting vibrating matrix. ( eg Ceramics ) Either way , although all of this is ' common' phenomenon and experience , these examples demonstrates how we are able to approach this aspect of 'Nature ' , directly and in her pure form! I think ! Mike

. Firstly we need to picture symbolically sea water in a grid matrix only symbolically as separate particles ( hydrogen twice oxygen once , possibly electrons in association with a nucleus of one proton , possibly sodium as a molecule , possibly chlorine as a molecule . The following is merely a symbol of these possible combinations . ( for illustration and discussion purposes) . See fig 0. If we have the force of gravity going straight upwards/downwards , through , and interacting downwards with ALL particles small and large ,including electrons . Then any interaction with the water/ seawater would be horizontally in still waters. See fig 1 Now with some particles pushed downward , would drag the joining particles downward . See fig 2 Bouncing back with the water raising above the mean sea level . Then the particles would drag the linking particle upward see fig 3 . Fig 1 Fig 2 Fig 3 From these picture diagrams we can see how waves form on the sea . It is interesting to note that it is very likely that up and down perturbations of the matrix ( as in likely wave motion , will cause restoration pressure to apply mainly across the matrix in a lateral fashion . Bringing about a movement toward levelness . Which was a subject of the discussion. All the build up of waves mean that in the high seas 6 metre waves can hold all that perturbed Gravity . Having dismissed the word 'magic ' from our discussion. It's interesting the English series on TV called 'Coast ' . Which is a series visiting the entire coast of the U.K. TONIGHT was reviewing our historic desire to go down to the coast and spend our holiday on the beach by the sea . Saying quote " we all seem to recognise a certain " MAGIC " about the sea at the coast . " unquote . Mike

GRAVITY it's in here somewhere ? Mike

.Well I could ask then , do the other forces pervade seawater / water generally , and have an effect as 'well' ( responsive , effective , unaffected by friction ,etc ) as Gravity? ( it's as if gravity gets in there at the right place ! ) how does it compare say with :- Magnetism, ? Electric Charge ? ( or electromagnetism ) . The strong force? The weak force ? Or is gravity limited to size of object ? Does gravity have any effect on the electrons attached to a nucleus? Or does its effect stop at the molecular level/ atomic level? Does gravity affect massless particles like photons ? How about neutrinos? I am wondering if gravity is the most pervasive, universal of all forces ? Or does it have its limitations ? Mike

I do not think that I have brought up any idea of ( magic or mysterious ) . I do think there is something hidden in the nature of sea water ( or any body of water for that matter , ) and it's reaction with Gravity. But not so hidden that we can not , touch , see, and play with its attraction with Gravity. With many of the other forces, our contact is on a large scale and though various layers of matter, indirect and often full of friction and resistance) With sea water, we can sit in the sea at a beach , stand in the water and play with the water. And in so doing we are feeling gravity through those bonding mechanisms at an atomic/ molecular level . ( or for that matter the release from Gravity, ) We can lower ourselves completely and float on a layer of molecular bonds , and know that our loss of weight is due to the volume of water we are displacing. ( as Archimedes discovered) although he got the idea right and the sums right , he did not have 20th century science with knowledge of molecular/ atomic bonds . I think this buoyancy has assisted in the development of life over time . Perhaps this is why only Europa was targeted by Arthur C Clark as the likely other place likely to have life ,in the Solar System . I will try and get some more information, about this interface between water and Gravity and its nature and behaviour. I do not think it is sufficient to perceive this phenomenon as " just a Force , like any other force" , the delicate way, yet strong way , that it interfaces with Gravity , I would say is unique to water? Yet may give us an insight to other Phenomenon. Mike

I think so, because I am one straight link , or it is there for anybody to touch by touching still water. They,or we , are touching the interaction of the force of gravity through those molecular Springy bonds. When we touch solids, we have all the irregularity, friction etc , with the sea we are either seeing this amazing balance. ( flat surface ) or we can sit in the water , put our hand on the surface Push down rhythmically and feel the fight in action between the force of gravity and the restoration by the various molecular bonds in sea water . Mike

Very , full of interesting happenings surrounding the early experiments. ( by Millikan ) Even up to quite recently . Whether isolating individual electrons , is going to help me fathom the interaction of gravity with water , I do not know . I guess water molecules are likely to be more influenced , than individual electrons , however that might not be so. Perhaps looking at the water molecule is relevant but do the electrons have relevance say for bonding with sodium and chlorine (salt in salt water ) p Seawater Although the sea is not level at the large scale , this is not really noticed on a human scale . However the following link is inserted for the large scale variations :- http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/earth-atmospheric-and-planetary-sciences/12-808-introduction-to-observational-physical-oceanography-fall-2004/lecture-notes/course_notes_3b.pdf If however if we look at the bonding going on in water , we note the ' electrons ' take a large role . This is both in the H2O water molecule itself , but also in molecule to molecule interaction involving electrons . Link :- http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/water_hydrogen_bonding.html With gravity having its own interaction with these molecules perhaps we are zooming in ,on an area that is not based on a Frictional environment . Which could explain why I am experiencing some of the phenomenon specified in the original post #1 a bit like internal micro-mini trampoline ? So , is what I am looking for , this hidden interplay between Gravity and Bonding . Is this the hidden machinery behind my five phenomenon . 1) The rising water in the children's swimming pool ; 2) Deep ocean waves, ; 3) Shore line swell; 4) Time Lapse views of perfectly LEVEL SEA WATER of ships in harbour ; 5) The Extra ordinary long time of Rocking crockery ; I have had a demonstrable, first hand glimpse and experience of the inner workings of molecular bonding and electron bounce . ( I think ? ) Mike

Does that mean the force is derived in a similar way ? Say +and - electrical charges ATTRACT and would free fall or accelerate toward each other if there was nothing stopping them doing so . If there is a similarity in the FORCE, and a similarity in the ACCELERATION , might that not indicate there may be , ( ever so just be ) other similarities of Gravity and Electrical attraction? But is the gravitational force acting on one atomic particle, one atom , one molecule as a whole , OR on a reasonable mass of water ? Mike

Except , that, if what you say is correct , which I have every reason to believe you are right, then :- This would indicate the Force of Gravity is similar in make up to the other forces , yet:- If I have understood things correctly , the current problem with unifying quantum particles and gravity , it is almost impossible to do so. If what you say is correct, then this in turn could help with the unifying of gravity with the other forces ? Is that not , going to make that so? Mike

Yes , I take your points. But I would still want to know if there is anything to be inspiring an insight here , on the visually impressive nature of flat water induced by gravity , and thus the nature of gravity itself. Left over from school days , one has the picture of any Mass having a centre of gravity , and this single pull with an arrow down towards earth centre. Nowadays with a distributed field emanating from the huge mass of the earth. This draws me to Richard Feyneman lectures , where in referring to a large Shoal of fish he says " there is no field , no miraculous field telling all the fish to turn at once and make those beautiful images. The most there is is the NEIGHBOUR fish . The outside fish sees its neighbour fish move off sideways , so it instantly ( slight delay) moves to be with its neighbour. And thus the amazing display of a Shoal . " Thus I am asking , is each individual molecule of water responding to ( a ) a field of gravity or (b) it's neighbour molecule. Or maybe a bit of both or something different ? Because something akin to those beautiful Shoal's of fish is ,I suspect , afoot? See wikepedia pictures and animations of shoals ( shoaling ) link :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoaling_and_schooling Mike

Yes! You Are correct as illustrated in post # 24 , where a perfectly flat collection of seawater on the beach has a minute leak point, and water flows even with the slightest of ' head of water ' . The rest remains perfectly flat . I appreciate a few of you are finding this daily occurrence as ( trivial ) . But I am trying to say we are " seeing " or " witnessing the phenomenon of gravity naked " . True, it is an effect , but unlike air currents , sound waves , radio waves and a host of phenomenons we have investigated scientifically over centuries to understand in picture , in models , oscilloscopes or other detectors . Here we can see "practically Naked , " " gravity " with no instrument , no model . Raw phenomenon . But can it give us any insight as to its ' nature' . Unlike fire it is quite benign ( unless of course , you are drowning ) . O.k. I take your point of equipotential . I am thus imagining a line coming out from the centre of the earth crossing the sand on the beach and 4 inches higher crossing the surface water , with a gravitational potential ( no doubt given by one of the physics formulae) . I then imagine another line coming out from the centre of the earth a little to the left or right and as it penetrates the sand and finally the surface of the water , it has or maintains exactly the same gravitational potential . I could presumably draw a line on a piece of paper dipped into the water with the two points . And it would perfectly coincide with the level of the water . If I were to draw a similar parallel line just below the surface . It would I presume read a fraction less. ( still level ) . Ok I can build up a 3d lattice . Now the question is , how did that set of identical values GET THERE? Is it an ambient field , a neighbour contact relayed ? Is it some distortion in Space Time as suggested by Einstein's General theory of relativity ? Or WHAT ? If I scrape around in the sand or water looking for it . What will I find . If I use cleverer and more clever devices to look smaller and smaller . With what device will I look with to check out this potential . What will I find if i probe deeper and deeper in smallness , looking for the evidence of this potential . ( like a volt or amp, in electronics , will I ever find the equivalent of a charge , or a flow of charges ? ) if I could find something , then maybe I could feel I am approaching , this the nature of Gravity . That lays so level . Yet with a persistent breeze can build up to be a deep ocean sea . Tell me ?

I think one of the aspects of this incredible aspect of gravity ,in its connection with water is. Gravity makes water incredibly level Quite what mechanism is at work to bring about this incredible ' levelness' may reveal these ' aspects' that give me the hint that ' something is 'there ' in the nature of this phenomenon . Mike