Mike Smith Cosmos

Pan ? does he mean Pan-gea,? .. -- .. No. That was much later . The Super continent of Gondwanaland was ,I understand the first supercontinent at what is now the south pole. The Land of Gonds . Edward Suess in Vienna . coined the idea. I believe .? Mike

Some or all of the seas and rivers we have on earth today , were once in another form, on, or around, previously existing Supercontinents. If I understand it correctly what is left of the Tethis sea is a band running down the Mediterranean sea across through the Persian gulf and across with India missing , ? But we need to go back further in time to the early Supercontinents. Mike

I sought refuge in a row boat , behind a large rock , stack , in Ladram bay on the Jurassic Coast . Illustrated here I contemplated here , how years and years ago this chunk of rock was near to the Thesis sea , probably much nearer the equator then , as dinosaurs roamed these rocks. Long since forced north by the African plate pushing the Eurasian plate , and all countries attached much further northwards. Now here I am arc, I am talking to the two lads in their canoes , in my little Row boat behind the stack , painting and taking refuge at sea . Will I survive the attack of the Dinosaurs ? Mike

It is not me that wants to change the word clever. I have always been happy with it. Do not want to change it , or mess with its use. It is a perfectly good word . To quote the Oxford English Dictionary :- ' The old mare was as clever as a cat, 1888. , The girl was tight clever wench as any was Arbothnot ! Then come ,put the Hormuz about ,and let us be merry and clever.' I have this horrible feeling we are all arguing from a similar side. The selective ,trial and error , feedback system , utilised in nature ,is based on a certain amount of 'chance' which I am not disputing. But this whole mechanism is a very 'clever ' system , to regulate all sorts of development. However , chancy the dragon fly might feel he is flitting about, sometimes by the whim of a breeze, ultimately it is programmed to seek out a particular colour or shape . Whether it is in this particular pond or not is chance, whether it is this plant or not is determined. For the dragon fly, this whole system , wherever it has come from is clever , none the less. So yes the dragon fly could be said to have a certain amount of inbuilt intelligence to discern the specific plant type, but no the particular pond it finds initially may well depend on chance arriving out of chaos and complexity ,in the form of a wind swirl. Now yes this ' programmed ' bit comes from a similar selective mechanism further back . Itself composed of a feedback regulating trial and error mechanism . It too having its chance element as well as it's determined element. This whole tiered business is a very clever mechanism , no matter which way you look at it , or from whence it came. So yes there is , as per the OP -- Evidence of " cleverness " in nature and it's processes. -- Q.E.D. Now you can say this is Hogg Wash if or all you want! . But I think in this instance it would be fair to say , that we ( tar and I ) have won this discussion and argument. Mike

Ok. If what you are saying is that incremental parts, like a dog is clever, and constituents, and individual processes are individually clever BUT the whole thing " nature " is not clever. Well , I can sort of see what you are saying. I always thought that nature was all the incremental bits in one bag , to save saying all the bits all the time. I know James lovelock refers to the whole earth system as GIAH which he portrays as almost living . But I don't think he means it quite like that. But he certainly thinks its one whole system . When I used the term nature , I was meaning the old fashioned way as just it all. But I am not after splitting hairs, I just mean all the individual parts seem to work with a certain amount of amazing , mind blowing , methods , to achieve their own ends, within the environment that they find themselves. Now if I were to sit down and review all the incremental parts ,in one long sitting , I think I would be overwhelmingly , awe struck , and think the bundle of things pretty mind blowing. Now whether I could sum that up in a simple single word. How about intriguing ! Sounds a good word. Not quite the depth I had originally in mind. But if moderating the word , allows further discussion and development , all well and good . Mike

Well would you say an animal is clever ? Not metaphorically. Like my dog jumping through a hoop. mike O.K. If I can get through this particular line of discussion with Ohiolite as to where he draws the line . From A human say being clever, to a dog being clever, to a worm being clever, to grass being clever, to minerals being clever. to where ever down to a Quark being clever. And I loose. Does it mean I can change the word " clever " to " Amazing " or " Awe Inspiring " so that the discussion does not get hung up on a single word . I had moved on to " Entropy " v " Generative " , being two different counter directions. ( Entropy moving toward disorder Generative moving toward order ). But because " clever" was in the original Title it keeps being brought up. Then I can say things like " Generative " processes like Stars are Amazing and Awe inspiring. I still might need a further word to bring in the .......ness. ] mike

Dinosaur country East devon Coast. ( Jurassic Coast ) . A half hour paint sketch . . Painted in a rowing boat , anchored out to sea. 400 meters In tune Mike

. All this talk of Dinosaurs Now look what you have done Mable ! Ohh! ! Ps. I yesterday went to Ladram Bay on the Jurassic Coast . East Coast Devon . U. K. I went on my scooter, and pulled in on woodleigh moor above budleigh salterton to a car park. It said " you are standing on 200,000,000 year old pebbles, pebble bed of a river from the times of the dinosaurs . I picked one up . Here it is , from 200 million years ago on a dried up river bed from dinosaur times , in my hand . . Mike

I have it on my list , I still have " trespassing on einsteinium lawn " to finish . one of you guys recommended . Indeed we have . And seeing as I defined it for this thread , being the originator . Thus as per Oxford English Dictionary and , as per the Collins thesaurus : - post # 3 Clever ...... Firstly from the shorter Oxford English Dictionary , which comes in two heavy volumes that I have just dragged upstairs to my study. Clever : Also cliver, cleaver,related to cliver in the sense of 'nimble of claws 'sharp to seize, klever,sprightly, brisk smart ,suggests the word belongs to the area 1. Nimble handed,adroit,dexterous in the use of limbs, 2 possessing skill or talent, of things done with adroitness, and skill.ingeneous. 3 . Nimble. 4 clean limbed, well made. 5 Handy. The old mare was as clever as a cat, 1888. , The girl was tight clever wench as any was Arbothnot ! Then come ,put the Hormuz about ,and let us be merry and clever. Cleverness . :- the quality of being Clever. Adroit :- seems to figure in this a droit right handed. Possessing address or readiness of resource either bodily or mental, dexterous , active clever. . . Now however the field lines go for gravity ( say coming from the centre of the earth radially, or at 90 degrees to them ) the grass out side my front door on this ancient pavement which is going at a slant uphill. Still the grass is picking out the correct angle ( lines of force) and following them ' en mass' in these early days, when there are no competing things in their way. Now that is cleverness by anyone reckoning . .( taken last night on returning from Ladram Bay . Jurassic Coast ) . The Collins English Dictionary Says :- Clever. :- Displaying sharp intelligence or mental alertness, skilful with ones hands . The Collins pocket Dictionary and Thesaurus says : - Clever .:- Dictionary....... Intelligent,,able,,skilful, adroit, cleverly Clever. :- Thesaurus........ Able, adroit, apt, astute, brainy, bright, canny,capable, cunning, deep, discerning, expert, gifted, ingenious, keen, knowing, quick, rational , sagacious, sensible, shrewd, skilful, smart, talented, witty. ............. True , some of these latter definition contributions mention the word intelligent here and there , but that is not its central definition. I think I could be forgiven for using the word clever to describe Nature, in all her myriads of achievements . That is surely a given , world view. With total separate meaning , given to the origin of nature. If not , can we not from this moment on say: we are discussing the characteristics, and nature of the universe, Not its origin. As I do believe I have a valid argument , for saying that there is a two way flow present in the universe , both in the :- a) direction of more Entropy ( more disorder , and less accessible energy with more closed systems . And B)In the other direction a Generation ( more order , and more accessible energy , an open system ) Then we can leave people to make up their own mind , on the question of origination, in another thread, or in another corner, and beat the living day lights out of each other , with each other's views on that subject. How does that suit your good selves . ,? Mike Ps I was today going and went to Ladram Bay on the Jurassic Coast . I went on my scooter, and pulled in on woodleigh moor above budleigh salterton to a car park. It said " you are standing on 200,000,000 year old pebbles, pebble bed of a river from the times of the dinosaurs . I thought it would be nice if you came down to have that drink. I hired a row boat and anchored beyond the stacks . And made a paint sketch ( half hour ) of the stack from seaward side , looking back ashore .:- If we go out in the row boat we must not fall out with each other or the boat ! .

So would that infer that the giant sized dinosaurs , ( like the monster shown above ) were likely to be plant eaters ( herbivores) and the predation (carnivores ) would be small and agile dinosaurs.?

How it read as a whole ,before the sea came in and washed it all away suddenly , was . THE INFLUENCE OF QUANTUM FIELD IS THE VERY MECHANISM OF HOW THE COSMOS IS FORMED . mks Mike Can you give me a taste on the " I am a strange loop " before the book arrives , please . Mike

I will have to think about that. Luck sounds a bit hit and miss. If you mean statistical , that is different as there are influences. I have touched on your strange loops. Hofstad he has a new book out . Godel. Ethgert, Bach . Wherein he goes in to these strange loops being nested sets . It has a lot of maths in it and many of the diagrams I see you bringing up. I agree there is a lot of chance about. In fact there seems to me, to be more chance than locked in determined things. But I can see these 'receivers of chance' . Making the universe what it is. I would like you to look at this. It is a really good thought I had about quantum fields on a beach, a year or two back . Before I lost the thought , I wrote it , . In the sand. (as I had no note book with me at the time ). . . And then the tide came in quickly and washed it all away ! I could only read it out loud a couple of times , then it was gone ! Whoosh ! Mike

I do not mention intelligence, otherwise I get dragged into the [ Intelligent design v evolution ] thing, that appears to be raging in the USA. I actually think and believe much of the evolutionary processes are at work in the universe. But, I also think there is something far, far , far more advanced than man influencing the Universe, or overseeing the universe. As I am sure many other scientists do, who marvel at what they see and discover. Because the palethera of clever processes that appear working in the universe lend themselves to both evolutionary processes as well as clockmaker style of processes. How you reconcile that as an individual , is very much a personal thing. All I want is the Truth. If there is a bit of both, and evolutionary processes are the machinery of a bigger plan , all well and good. . If Evolution is ALL there is, then I hope it gets it right. If there is some overall overseer, I feel a little bit more confident, that the evolutionary principles like natural selection, will keep the various systems on the strait and narrow. But If it goes off the rails there is an overseer that can make suitable adjustments. As scientists and engineers , we are used to doing precisely that. I can not think of any invention or process, factory or anything else, that any scientist or engineer who set it going, LEFT any process to go on, Ad Infinitum , by itself, for any length of time at all. Power station, hydro electric dam, radio active power station, railway system , water system, sewage system , gas supply distribution system , hospital, national health system ,Financial system, the list goes on. So to me I have no problem with both Processes.[ Evolution systems as part of a much , much much, bigger plan. ]. Now that does not alter the content of this thread. If the whole shaboodle is so clever, the whole thing can start from nowhere, totally self regulate itself so as to produce in such detail what we see today . So be it . But if , As I think " If the whole shaboodle is clever, the whole thing started from somewhere,,which included all the systems of natural selection and other evolutionary processes , and to a great extent self regulate itself, so as to produce much of the detail that we see today, yet be part of a much bigger plan . then so be it. So what. They are pretty much the same , except , for me there is , something, somewhere that is much bigger in addition , which can add some starting conditions,, initial energy , some initiative, some boundary conditions, or constants, major adjustments or whatever is required , when even scientists say " yes , but where does." such and such " constant or that " such and such ." come from.? So any proof or disproof of a system opposite to "entropy" , namely " generative" , works in favor of both things that I have described above. and therefore on the same supportive tack , Evolution needs to be Pretty Dam Clever to produce what we have now. .. Or The whole thing I have described above needs to be Pretty Dam Clever to have got what we have now. mike

I think clues must be present in the oceans, even now where Huge Whales have grown to immense size .

Straight lines a building block in science We utilise both the vertical strait line for support and the horizontal strait line for movement Mike

The straightness of these grasses beggars belief. Builders latched on to gravity to produce hanging plumb lines, to follow the pull of gravity ( thread and weight ). And thus enabling them to build buildings with straight upright sides. Here grasses are using Geo-tropism In conjunction with internal hormones to govern the growth to follow the vertical lines of gravity. Quite what controls the hormones I am not sure. But one way or another, this is incredible . Notice how important straight lines are to our balance and functional movement in the environment. Mike

Surely, if one of the dinosaurs is just bigger than the rest by variation and/or mutation . And he eats all the lush high leaves that all the other dinosaurs can not reach. He grows Big and strong. A female Dinosaur herself quite tall. really finds this Macho Dinosaur quite elegant and strong. The two do the hokey kokey and lots of large tall dinosaurs enter the gene pool. I am sure female dinosaurs find hunkey massive Dinosaurs particularly attractive, like Weight lifters . Particularly if the female dinosaurs look cool ! Mike Picture of hunkey Dinosaurs http://www.rareresource.com/images/dino_relatives/types_dino.jpg .I think this one is of the apatosaurus variety . Which sort of stacks up with the picture here of the man against the apatosaurus shown here Not sure what those things on their heads are ?

What counts as stable . how many years. because we are into the 10,000,000 year chunks in these geological time periods , and more . mike

Perhaps some or many of the trees and vegetation grew really high, and so like the giraffe , they could reach higher and higher to more vegetation . Those that could reach got the food. And thrived. Mike

The age between the Two great Mass extinction events. The End of the Permian to the End of the Cretaceous .Was the time for the rise of the Dinosaurs ( during the Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretaceous times ) At the Two great mass eruptions at either end of this time , The Deccan traps in India ( end of Cretaceous) and the Siberian traps in Russia ( end of the Permian) Massive lava Flows ,pouring out of the bowels of the Earth for possibly thousands of years, a nightmare by our standards. At these events and for some time , Darkness; with plants and animals being pushed to the limit of existence. But in the intervening three [ Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretaceous times ] . the Dinosaurs [ as the one shown previously , with the man lying by its leg bone , or the one seen below in my garden , flourished ]. There was a beautiful BBC Series made of film Animation as well as a Discovery Channel series,, made of this period , probably now on Dvd . The last period in this whole dinosaurs time was the Cretaceous, when the oceans were full of the little crustasions that lived and died in the oceans, in their trillions and trillions, to form the major white bands of chalk , in cliffs and layers seen about the world . They [ the dinosaurs] had their day, each to grow into their particular niche . some small, some large, some fast some slow , some even flying. surely an interesting age . chalk cliffs Cretaceous Some of the Cretaceous critters ,swarming in the seas, to deposit, and become chalk cliffs , etc ref . Courtesy of book " British Mesozoic fossils , British Museum ( natural history 1983. ) Mike Ps . Of course, this is all down the road from me in Devon, where I live. I could just jump on my motor bike/ scooter and be down treading where dinosaurs trod , in half an hour. Except, all these land masses were somewhere down around the equator at the dinosaur era we have been speaking about . note Permian red sandstone cliff in ,near distance . Just a short trip in a boat up the coast easterly and one is seeing the Cretaceous White chalk ,as shown by boat picture above. I think my dog was more interested in a cat ! No sorry it was one of those small dinosaur 's , or memory of dinosaurs , that still roam this area of Devon.

Thus the Entropy number going well down towards 0 , and the Generation number going well towards 10. I have just come across another very complex yet winning idea ,that appears in a fundamental ingredient for the life environment ,among plants , this is in the grass area . The ability to creep with the slightest of movement , when away from the original growing position. This example is a particular grass head . See following pictures . . As soon as you pick up the grass heads ( barley I think ,not sure ) , they seem to run through your fingers with the slightest of movement , the more you chase them the more they run away. I remember once ,one got in my shirt cuff, in a couple of minutes it had climbed up my shirt sleeve and came out by my neck. Quite amazing . Thus another where the Entropy number going well down towards 0 , and the Generation number going up towards 10. Mike

Yes, Anything you can say here about the reason why these dinosaurs were so large ? mike

I am not sure which science area you would listen to. I notice your main interest is mathematics. But if you are happy to listen to other areas of science then :- Melvin Bragg " in our time ". Has an archive of many excellent interviews with eminent scientists of their fields. I will go and look for the link :- http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/features/in-our-time/archive Yes that is it . Just pick the letter like m for maths , and it will take you to a 45 min interview with a couple or just one famous maths expert. Or u. Will get a dozen different interviews on the universe. I love them , you get all the latest . You do not have to read it, . Headphones on , sit back , and enjoy 45 minutes of blissful expertise. Mind you , I usually end up asleep , not through boredom but bliss. Mike

On the way into a painting session yesterday, on the bus, I asked a complete stranger Student. " what image would you say would best fit the Universe, The whole Thing " he thought for a moment and said " the beach ". so during my art session I did two things 1] a allowed drops of diluted white acryllic paint to free fall onto some Black paper . Observation :- Note quantum style sizes and detail symmetry breaking 'crown type' minute thickness radiating symmetrical spines. 2] I thought how best I could represent his beach for the Universe, so Big bang, like the drops of white paint , creating the image shown (possibly ) I thought in terms of a volcanic Island, central , adjacent still lagoon, HIS BEACH , Coral reef with main Waves Breaking on the reef . mike

Bill ,! Someone said you needed a volunteer for some way out Science Experiment. Not sure what you want me to do but I am your man for way out science Experiments. I have not read your thread yet , as I am in a bit of a dash, count me in . ! Mike ( catch me later, If you can ! )