Mike Smith Cosmos

.. - :: How about : INNATE PROGRESSIVE CHANGE instead of CLEVER Forget for the time being Who or what is responsible for this innate progressive change . THAT CAN BE A MATTER OF PERSONAL CHOICE AT A LATER STAGE EVEN IF YOU CHOOSE / CLAIM NOTHING IS RESPONSIBLE. ____________________ ____________ ____________________ ___________________ TAR . As a relevant yet slight mental digression. Ref [ Possible Contribution of Our Current Universe ]........ I have given some thought to the idea that we progress from now into the far far future. Assuming we do not blow ourselves to smithereens or are blown to smithereens. Time goes on , thousands ,millions billions of years . The universe gets to become very populated with our species. We develope combined intelligence and capability of manufacture ,that would make today's manufacture like making snow balls by comparison. Then we could make stars planets even galaxies and black holes. If by some querk or skill, We as a combined escalating universe wide civilization and colosal intelligence , could revisit the start of the universe , then we could make what we now see as our current universe. Future We could possibly then become part of the vast intelligent brain you describe . Mike

O.k. I was looking for a definition out there ! Where , I have had a chat with a few colleagues face to face, and it seems to me . That what I have to do is choose my definitions , and then use that to make the numerical analysis. Obviously the listener needs to agree the definition , so long as they are not things that people do not like , understandably like " everything " is clever . Ok. I have a better platform to create. My definitions as to what is definitely not clever > 8.7 What is definitely clever < 6.39. Not sure what in between is ?? This sounds like a bell curve with deviation ! Mike

Ah well that is easy . That is the nature of genetic algorithms , the universe is full of genetic algorithms , which by nature the universe is intrinsically littered temporarily with failed or less successful solutions. These solutions are given none or fewer solutions. Whereas the better solutions are given higher numbers. Then when the generations go again, the good solutions prosper and the poor solutions fade away. But some detritus remains in odd corners.

what the h... does foofy mean ? She by the way !

I will! I promise I will . But the d.. Dog will not wait ! Mind you , I do keep saying , " the whole shaboodle , does seem pretty clever to me " However , I will get a lot of pleasure in defining " clever " scientifically . With a worked example. No Laplace or double integrals or my head will hurt ! COME ON SWEETIE ! Not you . The dog ! Mike

Well not quite so mathematically precise as that , just at the moment , as I am upstairs , on my I pad with a dog wanting a walk. But Just to keep things on the boil ! Dinosaurs grew up from little dinosaurs , with apparently , the big ones getting bigger with no predator binging them down . More and more lush vegetation , growing bigger and bigger where the only natural limit would be gravity breaking their leg bones , when they got too tall. Finally , part of the overall feedback system present in the universe was asteroids and super volcanoes flow eruptions. Darkness spread around the world and felled by feedback the dinosaur reign . Whereas little mammals underground could pop out , and do the business. I agree not a mathematical loop at the moment. But I am not just up to Laplace transforms and double integration at this time of the day with the mini mammal (dog) chewing at my heels . Now look at that face , by feeding back from a wolf pack until we choose a soft looking face to come and be a companion to us humans we have naturally selected a kind looking benign looking face to beam up at us so it gets it's walk ! Clever I say ! Come on ' sweetie ' I will take you out . Mike

. ------------- .... ---------- GREECE 2014 ......---------------- . So much for my " whiling away the time, on the acropolis in Athens , looking up at the stars , discussing the cosmos, like. :- . ---------- /// ....... ---- Socratese and Aristotle ". ... .. Oops ! Court of Plato near by. Mike. cheers chaps ! And chapesses ! Now , where was I ? Ah yes ! I do not really think there is any dispute really about the recognition of cleverness of systems in Nature. That could not be demonstrated with a few analysis and comparisons ( engineering examples ref natural systems ) . If necessary . But like every conscientious scientific procedure , we are supposed to make acknowledgement to the source , I merely posed what I thought were the alternatives. It is up for grabs. [] Some form of Master race already existing ( something like ) 10, Trillion in Number , beavering away with mechanism which would make our scientific minds burn [] Some form of Thing that self generated from out of Chaos, in logic, number, math.probability, selective feedback system , super human like being/s [] To an omniscient ... , that you have spoken about. (Aahh !!!! ///////////. ......... ) [] NO one lays claim for nature. Natural selection appeared one day out of nowhere with all it's extraordinary clever capabilities for generating a universe ,out of nothing. [] Any and many more is up for grabs.. (But Nothing ...then the whole shebang ..to me is not common sense ) [] Or you just go on like me looking, thinking, and maybe concluding. If it IS the cleverness thing that is the issue , then I will have to slog it out to deal with that. But I think most people have an intuitive feeling about nature , even if it is described with other names . Like : - " elegantly sophisticated, far from perfect, and completely awe-inspiring " ref (phi for all) VOTING SLIPS CAN BE FOUND IN THE BACK OF YOUR BRAIN SOMEWHERE . Mike

I will have to have a sleep on that and give it some thought ( currently 2:12 am here , need sleep ! ) hold the fort ! Mike

My main thrust of that remark , was I am getting the distinct feeling that over the pond in USA you all seemed to be getting steamed up about the issue we were discussing. That certainly seems to spill over into the forum. When I meet with colleagues over here in a cafe in uk. We have pleasant talks about geology, centrifugal forces , theories of particles , and the like . Mike

Pardon me WHO am I supposed to be , to quote " pissing people off " unquote ? You have got to be kidding me ! Now I know YOU are trying to wind me up ! Come on , this is a joke ! You are kidding ? " Well I go to the foot of our stairs " that has quite taken my breath away. Bunters ! That is not a swear word ! Just exasperation sound ! Mike

WHAT IS ALL THIS VEXATION ! I am the one who is getting the questioning! I thought this is all part of debate ! Seems healthy enough to me ! Mike

Hi unity +I have been noticing you support various threads like arc. and others , you have my admiration, for what that is worth. Probably at a bit of a low(measurable quantity ) at the moment. I presume you are trying to put a formula to cleverness =

. . I have not been to USA . Here in the u.k. You will be lucky to find anybody to talk about, or discuss such matters. British too embarrassed . Malcolm Muggeridge used to ( he is dead I think) , , the chap who does " In our time " , Melvin Bragg does, everybody else seems to be talking about politics . And corruption. Sounds like you have a verbal war going on ! ( between atheists and God fearing people ) who's winning ? I just rather like the idea of philosophers like Socrates , Plato , Aristotle and a few others ( as Michel 12345 says , not on the acropolis but in a venue in Athens ,the name escapes me. ) Theses and antithesis stretching their minds , as to the nature of the cosmos , arguing without having a heart attack ! That's all . I think it is the most important , rewarding thing a human being could do . What is wrong with that. Mike Alister Cook in letter from America once said " I found myself sitting next to the Delhi. Lama on a flight to America and I was not sure wether to say Its a lovely day out there or what ? " His conversation was quite interesting. This sums my attitude up ? If I found myself sitting next to the Dali lLama , I would go strait to it " tell me what is it like to be re-incarnated ? " not pussy footing around saying what a nice day it is. That sums up my approach on the science forum and anywhere else I ever find myself. I do not like trivial small talk , never have , bores me to tears . Occasionally do it ,because my wife tells me at a party " you are NOT to talk about the cosmos " ask them about their babies , house garden , holiday BUT NOT THE COSMOS . But here on the science forum , I go strait to the core questions. When people, if they do, give me flack ! I just quietly pick myself up , and try again . As far as I am concerned , the things I bring up are the most important issues there are ! That is of course ,unless I am relaxing , then it's my painting , my dog , my wife ( not in order of priority ) , my daughters , my friends, reading , countryside , swimming , sun , glass of wine , over to Italy . Etc Mike

I am not sure why everybody gets so steamed up ! It's obviously a sensitive subject all round. It makes me wonder what everybody is so frightened about ? My take on all this , is as I have said ! I have had a lifetime to observe. And something out there looks pretty d.. clever to me. And I am quite happy to describe why the engineer/physicist in me thinks it looks so clever. If you come to a similar conclusion about cleverness as me , as I see it , we need to decide from the options I suggested ( there may be many more ) Namely : - Quote mike smith post at the beginning page 1 "some form of cleverness, in fact I would think a great deal of clever systems that must have been active " is up for grabs. [] Some form of Master race already existing ( something like ) 10, Trillion in Number , beavering away with mechanism which would make our scientific minds burn [] Some form of Thing that self generated from out of Chaos, in logic, number, math.probability, selective feedback system , super human like being/s [] To an omniscient ... , that you have spoken about. (Aahh !!!! ///////////. ......... ) [] NO one lays claim for nature. Natural selection appeared one day out of nowhere with all it's extraordinary clever capabilities for generating a universe ,out of nothing. [] Any and many more is up for grabs.. (But Nothing ...then the whole shebang ..to me is not common sense ) [] Or you just go on like me looking, thinking, and maybe concluding. Mike

Yes , well I can understand your argument . But there are nonetheless spurious reasons, and influences which could mislead a separate argument to do with looking for ' cleverness ' For example the sheep issue I mentioned. I think if you tracked it down, it is probably for a mixture of pressures. Like , in England with our small land area, farmers are living near their home barns, the weather is particularly wet in spring, sheep have a habit of giving birth in ditches in the wet . The farmer sees the lambs dying . Each one represents £50 each. If I take the mothers into a warm barn in straw to lamb the lambs. The tradition has built up in the u.k. This is what uk. farmers do or we go bust. Result is breeding mother sheep that rely on human support during birth. Newzeland went a different route . Too far away from home barns , no option . Too many sheep to tend, survival of hardy lambing stock. For the argument of looking for clever system I think this will muddy the water unnecessarily . Mike

But this is no longer Natural section [ either way ]. As with changes in human society. human life and its environment has a very high proportion of self determination, not natural selection as its major influence.. mke

Another objective piece of evidence , why is must be a clever project ! IF we were to agree isn't Nature a clever project . Then all that remains is what lays claim to nature. I will challenge this when i get the energy . Like I will pick on a particular feature within nature and measure its feedback characteristics, possibly do an experiment. . Could look at a man made negative feedback system and see how they compare. That would be quantitative and measurable , within error bounds . Mike

Just to comment on the Emboldened statement above . Swansont brought up the other day about humans. I would say they are a bit of a special case [ not that i do not want to discuss them , which I would be quite pleased to]. Its just that unlike everything else they have a large self determining side to their activities , which can slew comparisons quite a bit. this has spilled over into domestic animals. For instance : English sheep have to be closely monitored when giving birth. We have bread more and more sheep that need human intervention at birth. On the other hand NEW Zealand Farmers have let the sheep get on with it. If they are poor mothers their offspring die and so never become poor mothers themselves. The result is a strong , natural breeding sheep that does not need human intervention. In England we have ended up with sheep needing human intervention. IE we are causing a Determining trait which may not be advantageous to anyone. O.K. we had better call a truce on that one , or i will be getting burned at the STAKE . Which I could do without just now. . I need to re group my thoughts a little. Like most people, probably most , appreciate Nature, because it does work pretty well in the main . We have all developed our own ideas as to why it is like the way it is. To me it would be counter intuitive , to think this whole thing was just a lot of bits all thrown up in the air , and hope they all come down in the self organising way they are ? I thought some of my answers were Objective evidence ! The best I can do is keep observing it, and asking the Questions ? mike I like that one ! You have cheered me up after my battle weary session . Mike

AHA ! I have you ! You say the tendency of entropy is to increase . That might be so when things are moving into disorder. But there appears to be some 'Tide' afoot which is moving the other way . to a state of order [ thus entropy decreasing ] . Thus that is a clever mechanism to swim against the tide ! mike " elegantly sophisticated" sounds good , do not have a problem with that . I think you may be stating things , that I do not want to infer. I do not think anybody is coming down polishing any stones to keep me happy. What i do think , is like you, that is a pretty " elegantly sophisticated " system in place where things do seem to work out pretty d.. good. And the curvature on those stones is not just aesthetics , I would be pushed to file those into the mechanical curves they are., having filed steel curves when I was an apprentice Engineer. They made us do mechanical engineering , even though training to be electronic engineer { in the bad old days ] Mike

view-source:http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/81894-is-there-evidence-of-cleverness-in-nature-and-its-processes/page-2?p=793484 I stuck my head under the water , with a breathing tube , and looked for the most beautiful stones for 2 hours. these are what I found. They were made by the relentless swell bumping off any rough edges to asymtotically produce the most beautiful curves you see. less entropy the simple act of knocking the glass on the tile floor shattered the glass producing chaotic disorder [ more entropy] If i have got that the right way round !

The Two Directions of Entrope . the Broken Glass moving to more disorder more entropy caused by human stupidity The most beautiful stone from Greece under the sea Moving to order less entropy caused by clever mechanism in the way the earth systems work.[universe works ] Mike

OBJECTIVE PROOF of CLEVER PROJECT .Negative Feedback Principle:- Although I had previously built receiver and transmission equipment in my late teenage years , being a Royal Naval Reserve telegraph operator among other things . These were not with understanding. My entry into Brunel University London Sponsored by EMI Electronics , undertaking Electronics and Electrical Engineering in the 1960's I plunged deep into the mathematical and Physics Theory and practical design of electronic circuits that incorporated Negative Feedback. in Electronics Slogging out the understanding of how Amplifying Transistors and at that time also Valves ( glass vacuum Tubes working using cathodes heated to emit electrons ) . To us as students it seemed criminal to take devices that had the ability to multiply up voltages or currents by factors of 20 times or 2000 times which amplifying transistors or valves could achieve. It seemed to our young minds , getting something for nothing. We were all interested by Amplifiers with Rock and Roll . More was Good. to us The theory however showed otherwise. By applying NEGATIVE FEEDBACK ( feeding back from the output to the input in a subtracting or negative way ) we would reduce the gain or amplification to say times 5 or times 0.5 ( which seemed a waste of gain ) However we were to learn that this added, CONTROL. PRECISION. STABILITY and few other advantages at the expense of the available ( say 20 times or 2000 times possible amplification ) . Thus counter intuitively we were learning to swap quantity for quality . As youth . you want loads of sweets , loads of noise music etc. But the Mature approach learned was one of Quality, Control, Stability by Negative Feedback. Such a mechanism could be viewed as A Clever Project ( of Quality ) as opposed to a self orientated greed (for quantity.) Now Looking at the Natural World When we make a close examination of the mechanisms present in the Universe and The Earth Systems [ environment, sea air rock ] plants , animals . humans we see that negative feedback systems are endemic or present in every area . The natural selection process itself is a Negative feedback System in its own right. . So the Natural Selection Process and the Universe with Galaxies, Stars , Planets, Animals . Plants humans and ecosystems must similarly add, CONTROL. PRECISION. STABILITY necessary for survival and a few other advantages at the expense of size and Quantity, and thus , in this case also become be A Clever Project (of Quality.) ,,Surely this is OBJECTIVE Evidence by the equivalence principle mike

I understand the point you are making about ' objective ' . I think that is possible and will attempt some objective points. But at the final count . You or anyone needs to make a judgement . Am I going to believe this or not . Which is subjective. However I will have a go at a couple of objective . Points . And see how we go ! Mike

.. . YES ! It all started ,after my first memory of consciousness . You know that moment when you were a very small number of years old ( not sure whether it was three or four ) . I was standing up in Plymouth , Devon, England , in a pair of yellow short trousers with straps over my shoulders. I hated those trousers , they were yellow ( I ask you yellow , for a boy ) , anyway they were too tight. This was my first recollection of consciousness some 66 years ago. There has been a lot of ' water under the bridge ' since then . But most of it , has been a conscious example of looking out on a world of some form of " Clever Project ". I have mainly been in and around England and the Mediterranean Sea , my daughters around the world. Now I and my wife are back in Devon U.K From that first moment of consciousness , to this present moment some 66 years later I became a .........thinker, physics investigator, engineer, teacher , analyst, investigator, observer, philosopher ,and now someone trying to come to conclusions about the whole darn thing . And from that first waking moment to now , I have one major conclusion . Everything from the minutest detail to the grandest cosmic structure tells me one thing. My conclusion is ... I , WE , LIVE IN THE MIDST of a VERY ,VERY ,VERY, VERY, CLEVER PROJECT . . ------------------ The whole darn thing is the " Clever Project. " .----------------- Now ,what you do with that result ,is up to you. I have done my probe for 70 years ( first 4 gazing about ) . And the answer is ,as I have given it above . What I do with it , is keep on in the way I have done my entire life . Keep on : - .......thinking, physics investigator, engineer, teacher , analyst, investigator, observer, philosopher ,and now someone trying to come to conclusions about the whole darn thing .... Mike Smith Ps. Now I can point to specific aspects , or detailed systems , should I be asked. Which maybe was what the questioner wanted. I still am happy to do that. For example, the negative feed back system is a brilliant example . But the whole thing needed mentioning first.

There is no real problem ! There is a perception problem or an interpretation problem . Because WE , look out on a universe and Subjectively WE ,say how WE feel and what interpretation WE make. But that is all WE can do! We don't have a measuring probe we can stick into something and read a dial saying ....either clever project yes /no .. The point is WE ARE THE PROBE ! But there should be no real issue with this , we do it all the time as we live move and exist. For a moment .....let's imagine traveling in some space ship to Mars . Routing around the various valleys. We come to this cave. We go inside. And there confronting us is this pile of strange looking computer looking equipment . With dials , knobs and whistles. However unlike anything we have seen before or know ever existed before. But was clearly some form of technology. We would have no problem concluding it was not natural rock but left there by some form of intelligent life that had been and gone ! No question about it that you would defend down to the stump! Why ? Because you can relate to it . YOU! WE relate to it. Now take the systems, artifacts , rocks ,elements, environmental cycles, bacteriological, viral , animal, chemical , atomic Systems , human beings . WE SEE at every turn around us can we not say, As with the visit to Mars previously described ! "We would have no problem concluding it was not ORDINARY but left there by some form of intelligent life that had been and gone ! but this time the equipment is even more sophisticated and technically clever . And so sophisticated we can hardly recognise it as equipment at all. " The problem lies in us as the PROBE trying to make a test! I do believe there is a way round this! But we have to adjust the PROBE US . We need to look at the environment as ENGINEERS But with the eyes of. 27th. century engineers , not. 20th/ 21st century engineers , EXAMPLES CAN BE GIVEN ! THAT is how we make the " cleverness project ". Test . Screw the adjuster knobs and whistle adjusters on our PROBE namely US . To 27th century engineer setting . Point it at the world. The alarm is going off inside the probe zzzzzzzz CLEVERNESS PROJECT DETECTED zzzzzzzzz ! zzzzzzzz CLEVERNESS PROJECT DETECTED zzzzzzzzz ! zzzzzzzz CLEVERNESS PROJECT DETECTED zzzzzzzzz ! zzzzzzzz CLEVERNESS PROJECT DETECTED zzzzzzzzz ! . . ------ XXXXXXXXX. EXTREME. SUPERIOR TECHNOLOGY PRESENT XXXXXXXX Mike