jackson33

iNow; Not only in Politics, but Religion, History, LAW or many social subjects, their is no set standard for factual or opinion, as you would like to equate to science. In Science the world is round, you can prove it a thousand ways and logically no one could dispute the facts. However on the above subject matter, issues are a matter of interpretation of the same facts, information, observations and analysis, that can be formed to fit the persons general conception of importance. For instance here, "The Civil War Freed thousands of slaves", yes but 60 thousand people died and two million injured for life. Where the end justifies the means, then goes on to the hundreds of other issues involved, each of which will be observed and evaluated differently by Historians or the general public in "discussion". This, I believe the purpose of the 'Forum Model", even on Science issues where questioning the established, IMO is a show of interest, not always a rebuttal of the facts... Stated as an "opinion", I would think your harassment is coming from METHOD (style) for discussing an issue, not your opinions or the fact you can substantiate some (not all), by others with the unlimited number of sources available over the internet. As some one described it to you elsewhere, it's like seeing who can find the most eggs on Easter. In your defense, you have not changed, it has been your style/method, going back years to my knowledge and this sudden shift in acceptance, is puzzling, not justifiable or warranted after years of precedence....

the tree; I was going to post this on the that other HS thread, but just as applicable here. I really don't think many have any idea what HS, is or how it's treated in the US. Education is a State issue and HS is treated very different, in EACH State. Law and requirements very so much in the various States, it would be hard to determine exactly how many are in fact home schooled. Ten States have virtually NO regulation, not even notification. Most the remaining have little or no regulation, requiring only notification and it would be my guess, not enforced, in most of these. For a State by State; http://www.hslda.org/laws/default.asp Then with out much or any regulation, the objective for the parents would be educating to the point of obtaining a GED (General Education Development) Equivalent, which can be done at anytime, after the age of 16 (some jurisdictions 18) and most Colleges/Universities (95%), will honor these test for entrance. There are some HS study guide plans that offer graduation certificates and each University or potential employer will address these in a different manner, but the GED approach is the best and most accepted means to show success for the average student. Additionally, many higher learning institutions have system of entrance exams, that can be used. Those that offer Study Plans, (study guides, which includes GED Testing), do say about 85% that are asked for a reason, claim religious reasons, but would be high problematic to the actually children being Home schooled, in the first place. Then a good many Asian families prefer home schooling (oriental/Indian) for cultural reasons in addition to a possible religious cause, I don't know today's statistics, but would think many Muslim Families would also prefer Home Schooling, for the same reason. On pro/con; Think it would be based on the parent or parents, the circumstances and the parents ability to actually teach, no less than any particular teacher or school system. I once married into a family of 5, with the oldest boy in the fifth grade, public schools. After about 2 or three weeks, I noticed he was the only one not bringing home any books, though none of the others seem to be looking at them, but found in ONE minute, this kid could not read any word, then had no idea what the alphabet was and not capable of writing anything other than his name, not knowing what the letters were. With respect to the mother, who was trying to learn herself how to read and write, beyond a third grade level, I failed to understand him being in the fifth grade...This was in a small town (South Texas) and should never had happened. I feel sure today, in half the Public Schools kids are passed on from year to year in no better shape than this young fellow was. Point; pro/con, can work both ways.

bascule; Here would be my answer to both your question and iNow, both correct with my explanation.... The Pledge of Allegiance, no less IMO, than calling the President "Mr. President" or a thousand others acts or ceremonies (raising of the flag, 13 gun salute etc.) are based on tradition that developed over the history of the US and before. While Benjamin Harrison (1892), offered a 'Proclamation', encouraging Public Schools to recite the pledge, there would have been and was not any enforcement, accepted and then becoming 'Traditional'. However, in 1954, when Congress 'Passed an act' (a law), inserting wording into the Pledge "Under God", implied enforcement became an issue, not only for the Pledge, but the wording of "under God", THEN giving the individual legal standing in the US Court system, otherwise said; That a tradition would then be by law and enforceable. Since then, both the "under God" or the forced reciting of the pledge itself have been found unconstitutional, or that forcing ANY individual to comply is illegal under the US Constitution. Personally, it would be my opinion, President Eisenhower (introduced the idea to Congress), not the "McCarthy Era" was the foundation for the act, based on a personal viewpoint of a Religious viewpoint and the act itself, then was unconstitutional. Even if it were the McCarthy anti Communism (Godless) scenario, the Constitution would prevent any National display of a Religion to combat another National view of religion.

Germany

Here is a list of text books, with prices issue by the Jefferson County High School District, (Louisville Kentucky, year end 2009. Note the many text books with older publishing dates, several dating back to the 1990's. Nothing less that 25.00, then for a 1998 Geometry Guide, with a US History Book first released in 2001, now 60.00 and I assure you has been updated, more than one time. I do not know how much the School is paying, but certainly they should not have been marked up for a profit. I was familiar with College Book Stores (East Texas, supplementary book sales, dictionaries and the like) in the 70's, and they operated on very low profit margins, at that time. http://web2.jefferson.k12.ky.us/jchs/textbooklist.pdf For a comparison, here are the current Amazon prices (a retailer) for the top rates non fiction product, generally around 12-14.00 per... http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/53 I don't know if this direct link will work, but Amazon has a long list of publisher prices and retails for used TEXT BOOKS, some used in K-12 or Universities today. http://www.fes.follett.com/follett_fes_general/premium-textbook-sale.cfm?P=P1#MCGR In trying to explain the cost of NEW Text books, I don't want to leave the impression, there are no other way to get these books, for students. Aside from each districts system, renting/refunding or charging for damages only, it's pretty rare each student each year would need to buy or use all new text books or even those revisions in Texas would mean a complete changeover to the new edition in a single year, likely over years... swansont; The above was a general post, to show Sisyphus, the differences in Text Books and Novels.... I still don't have the slightest idea, what your arguing and frankly your not making a lot of sense to me, heading out in different directions with each post. On one comment; The Text Book business plan is no different in k-12 or for any higher learning facility, but one to this general post list only HS Text. Off to my poker game.....

john5746; Something doesn't make sense to me with this case, specifically the need to be granted asylum in the US to avoid fining or imprisonment. First, Home Schooling is NOT illegal in much of the European Union, folks can work, live, assume go to school or not, in many States. The article even mentions this in neighboring France. Then I feel sure, there must be some means to educate children IN GERMANY, with out being taught the Muslim Religion, sex education or most anything offending parents. Then the US in accepting this as a reason for asylum in the first place, would open a Pandora's box for the few that do receive asylum for real cause, think about 40-50 thousand per year of the million plus that gain entry each year. I know absolutely nothing about German Law, but they do profess a separation of State and Church;

swansont; I'm beginning to think your sole point in reading my post, is to find error, which in most cases, you not doing a very good job. I haven't the slightest idea what your driving at but will guess; The publisher of a History Book, or any subject text book, has on hand a general text that may have been revised 100 times over a period of years, sold, resold over years. There are not always royalties involved and the small amount involved in revising naturally or for a specific audience is trivial compared to publishing a Novel, whether they print one thousand or millions for the National needs. Short of maybe a Bible or some religious book, my guess would be these are high valued assets and represent much of their profits, probably over 80% per book printed. Additional most are direct sales, leaving out the middleman. What you have inferred is that these publishers, can't print different books or change insignificant amounts of content for one segment of their customer base and maintain a profit, which is absurd.... If your truly interested in Text Book distribution (rather doubt), here is the English version, not much different in the US.

swansont; Most publishers, don't publish in a single area of the market or in fact is publishing their entire business. I'll use McGraw Hill again, which is very high... Fiscal Year Fiscal Year Ends: 31-Dec Most Recent Quarter (mrq): 31-Dec-09 Profitability Profit Margin (ttm): 12.27% Operating Margin (ttm): 21.41% Management Effectiveness Return on Assets (ttm): 12.69% Return on Equity (ttm): 46.68% Income Statement Revenue (ttm): 5.95B Revenue Per Share (ttm): 19.063 http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=MHP To repeat a previous post, their profile on the issue...

swansont; That's exactly why I've mentioned the publishers compliance, now for the third time. However, what's being said (the media complaint) to influence what goes out to other States, may not be factually correct. For instance in this case; If California wished Jefferson to be part of the 'Enlightenment' era, the publishers could comply to both request, say adding back Jefferson's name in the California edition or adding a footnote. There is a very high profit margin in the Publishing business and a little extra cost, not that important. In fact, in this case, I'd bet if any changes are made, it will be in what goes out to Texas only, most not concerned, apathy or not.... My discussions have been on Ms. Dunbar, but no doubt McLeroy would be objected to, on this forum, frankly including myself. Moon; I can't in good conscience argue FOR Ms. Dunbar or McLeroy for that matter. If parents want their children to learn Creationism, then they can either send them to a religious school, a private school that teaches the subject, home school (as Dunbar did with her kids) or simply bring it up at the dinner table. Texas is part of the 'Bible Belt' and since both these people were elected must be representing those in their region. I followed up a little on her assertion, Public Schools were unconstitutional, since they are not to this day Government Public Schools and either controlled by States, Districts or a combination, especially the curriculum. I don't know anything more Constitutional, than abiding to the restriction offered TO THE FEDERAL. For what it's worth here is her answer;

The Largest Publishers of Text books are, Bedford, Freeman & Worth; Cengage Learning, Elsevier, the McGraw-Hill Companies, Pearson; and John Wiley & Sons, most publishing for Schools around the world.

Moon; I really didn't want to get bogged down in statistical references, especially in this case, where polling is the only means to get answers or where the sources may be slanted to an agenda. From research, maybe 6-7 years ago and what little is available today, Evangelicals (Ultra Right) have been on the decline, where non believers have been on the increase and where law is concerned, there are many cases over the years which would not satisfy most any religion. Here is one article;

"Torcaso v. Watkins" (1961) Supreme Court Decisions on Religious Liberty

I suppose there might be some link between Aquinas and the Magna Carta, both around the same period, but I fail to see the link with England, after the early 16th Century, when England broke from the Catholic Church....

TBK; Debating is a skill of sorts, the winner not determinable on content over the issues likely to be addressed. A winner or loser, would then be based others agreeing or disagreeing with the issue (pro/con) in the first place. I have suggested the thread simply be opened for discussion, when the time runs out, feeling the participants could determine their own success, but if their was a three member "STAFF" picked and anonymously judging style only, that shouldn't offend anyone.

Muslims, Jewish, Chinese and many places already have different calendars according to their heritage, as did other societies (Mayans) but the Gregorian Calendar is internationally recognized...

iNow quotes;

Pangloss; This is one of a few issues, I stray off the Conservative reservation. Immigration reform, should have been settled during the Bush Administration, proposed January 2007, which McCain, Graham and most Democrats at the time supported. I feel sure his particulars would follow the Bush plan and for the most part not much different the Reagan's plan in the 1980's, certainly a conservative.

iNow; I could feel your emotional straining, clear over here in NM, while the 1st round of text book reviews were in process, in Texas. However, to my knowledge no specific God is mentioned and the Muslim Child is probably thinking "Allah" or the 2,164 different Protestants are thinking of theirs, then any patriotic American, could leave that portion out or legally not take part. Think any other decision, would have been a promotion in itself, of Atheism (a said religion) and contrary to the Constitution. Wasn't that from the 9th Circuit, the most liberal of any Federal District Court. Then doesn't the 1st A, give everyone the actual right to talk or mention any god, with in any context.

It's my understanding that the Senate bill is ambiguous on the issue or could be interpreted to pay for Abortion. While being promised to be corrected under reconciliation, Stupak has argued, this could not be done.

It is NYC only and I agree with the consensus here, the bill will not pass. With out checking actual cases, other than both my folks, humans require a certain amount of 'Iodine' for some gland to function and Iodine is an additive in table salt. After the 'Big Salt Scare', think in the 1960's many cut back or stopped using table salt. One result was an 'inner eye' or balancing problem, which did hit both my parents and thousands of others. Even if they returned to using salt, apparently that gland didn't start up again, whatever it produced. They took supplemental pills (not cheap) the last 20+ years of their life. Aside from this, what it the world would it do to the tourist business or the massive NYC Restaurant Business? Ecoli could go into that business, out there on the Island and make a fortune...

TBK;