jackson33

Pangloss; Coercion, otherwise known as blackmail IS NOT legal and not authorized in the Constitution, the exact opposite is....there is no correct or legal way to coerce. It's up to States, what are considered safety laws (thousands of other issues) and can very to extremes. NY for instance has 25 or so seat belt laws, where in New Hampshire there are no laws covering anyone over the age of 18. Fines are just as extreme. Speed laws today, vehicle condititon (Safety Stickers) and all fines or class for infractions (misdemeanor/felony) can be extreme. Driving 80MPH in Texas, on certain roads is legal, as in Montana. On and on, and I won't bore you with how different Family/Estate Laws varies. Point we are 50 separate, sovereign and independent States with certain guaranteed rights, that are being ignored. I'll also disagree that people with different viewpoints should remain silent, to avoid Constitutionality discussion, maybe the opposite. I know this is hard to believe, but probably half the people over 18 in this Country today, honestly believe it's the Federal responsibility to provide from 10 to all things classified essential and if fact none are. I should be long gone, but if projected deficits are in fact 22T$, with additional obligation of anywhere from 40-80T$, by 2020, there won't be ANY services available. Reorganization, no less than any business must go through in bankruptcy, will be devastating on the society. Don't believe for one second this could not happen. Since this is your second mention of Limbaugh, I'm afraid he thinks these proposed programs can be turned around or that the underlying problems do NOT exist and IMO, both wrong.... Thanks for your comments and the platform to spin from...but we're probably getting off the message the thread author intended. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged

Pangloss quote;

I wasn't around for the first round either, but this has come up since with a generally negative attitude. Mine being positive... A couple ideas you might wish to consider.... When a poster/moderator (was not allowed second round) makes a challenge, allow at least a day, for anyone interested to accept the challenge, then the challenger picking his/her choice to debate. We all have folks we would rather not tangle with for any number of reason or find others that easier to discuss issues with. Would strongly suggest forgetting, 'blind posting' and that would limit interested posters/moderators. You could limit debaters to having made -x- number of post, but with the challenger probably already aware of who is wishing to debate, that would seem unnecessary as would the methods or techniques used, by any particular person. I really don't think you need to review a post, prior to it being entered, any more than you would any members post during regular activity. If for some reason one is out of order, break some rule, there are plenty of moderators that can take action, give a warning or anything they normally do, other than the debaters. Frankly, you want debaters concerned with the issue, rather than if some 3rd party is going to scold you for spelling or any source reliability, you might use. I would think any good debate should be allowed to run it's course, so long as interesting, stays on topic, with a possible limit of days (suggest 7-10), opposed to number of entries made. You have several members, that could do 20 to 30 post in a week, with an active counterpart. Ending a debate; When ever the debate ends, for what ever reason, either open the thread for comments or transfer to the appropriate sub-forum for discussion. I would prefer opening (unlocking) where surely there will be pent up comments to be made. Additionally those debating will have an idea, how effective they were... Skeptic; I'll agree, it seems like when a discussion between two posters gets fired up, there always seems to be some, feeling the need to jump in and help one or the other party involved. Think that's natural, but often distorts the authors intent for the thread.

The following article, made me think of this older thread and why I had agreed an important issue for folks to discuss. There is a probability every person has or will go through much the same in their lifetime, with a child, parent, spouse or will need to assist others going through much the same thing. Sad as this life experience is, with natural life expectancies reaching into the normal deterioration of the human body and mind, it's only going to become more commonplace. If you read the article, read through some of the responses, which are just as telling of the looming problems as folks enter into artificial life to an inevitable death. Note, this case and most in my opinion never involve being hooked to machines for life itself, rather a natural deterioration of the body, once inflicted. Those cases I would think, would be simple decisions and far less common than the following...

Skeptic, iNow and Pangloss; When you think of any society, your thinking in general terms of what you perceive that society to be. Example, you might feel China, is Communist (it is), yet your aware they have Capitalist principles involved in there economy (always have allowed some). What I'm trying to explain is that, what appears to be Capitalist in China is the acceptance by Government and what your calling Socialistic in the US, should be coming from the Governed. Do any of you feel, the US is Socialist or would be willing to be governed by a Socialist Federal Government today???? Suggestion; Place a poll header on your thread, "Is the US a socialist country" Yes or no, the only answers. The result may be interesting since apparently 53% of Democrats, believe economically it already is...

Skeptic; Economically speaking anything government does to increase a cost, has the same effect as a tax. If this is the result mandating regulation or requiring additional cost to the end product, the consumer of that product/service is forced to pay (opposed to everyone..inflation/theft/rotting) additional cost. What your trying to instill into this are definitions, which the Government is very good at. For instance they claim to reluctantly collect Payroll or Gas Taxes, for services the public demands. Payroll was never designed to be a Federal Revenue and Gas Taxes (Government calls 'user fees') are not and the 'Trust Fund' they appropriate from is periodically used for all kinds of strange and unintended purposes, with very little authority to enforce what the money is actually used for. Think both Minnesota and Louisiana used use this funding for Football Stadiums...

Skeptic; Yes, anything that increases the price to a consumer of a product, yet adding nothing to profits to the producer, in my mind effectually is a tax. Back to Cigarettes; The cost to produce a carton of most any brand is around 2.50 per, while in NYC today, some cost the consumers near 100.00. It remains a legal product to consume, yet by virtue of every taxing authority and added cost to the producer through regulation and mandates, the NYC consumers pays that additional amount. A gallon of Gasoline cost in the neighborhood of 1.00 at today's crude price and diesel even less, yet today must charge around 2.00 per, MORE for diesel, but through regulation from the Federal, each State and many City requirements it cost twice as much to refine. Then you the consumer, already having been charged to conform to regulation are then charged additional taxes from the Federal and each State, not to mention the Billions of Dollars most refineries pay in local, State and Federal Corporate Taxes, all of which are passed on to a consumer. Truckers, for instance who are already paying more per gallon for what normally would be a less costly product to refine, also pay 6,000 to 10,000$/year for other taxes/permits and mileage fees to travel the various States, additional insurance cost, cost to conform to different States regulation, all of which you the consumer are forced to pay for, when purchasing a product. I could go on with this, from the place you live to the burial plot your placed at death... Note, for any nit-pickers...Friday 3/5/2010, crude closed at 81.50, cost at refinery 2.27 and no doubt average cost in the US will be around 3.25/3.40 by Monday for Gas/Diesel... As for those concerned, their arguments, would probably be similar to the arguments I've made, in that they have performed a free service for the recording industry itself for years for and with the cooperation of that industry. It's a business model, that has worked, working well and should be left to continue, with out Federal involvement, so long as a consumer exist. Music on AM radio, has been a non factor for years, talking/informational taking its place back in the early 1990's. FM is already hurting with the advent of Satellite Radio and the Computer or all the gadgets available. Skeptic, I had another post stored for another one of your threads, I'll now post if you wish to continue this discussion. Your making valid arguments and asking valid questions, that I believe are based on misconceptions by the public at large, especially here in the US and the confusion over what are Federal/States responsibilities, then the individuals. bascule; Radio is really not FREE, somebody is paying your share for any enjoyment received. Generally through advertisers or investors or folks simply interested in their small town. It's not much different than these little forums, where maybe 100 or less of us that take part or read postings daily, are being supported in part by others, often the owners themselves without a profit. I would literally come unglued, if the US Government tried to permit any Internet activity and believe me, they are trying to figure out a way....

bascule; Since you want to continue this; Every year thousands of people audition for 'American Idol', in hopes of being one that makes the show or go on to be one of the top 10, who generally end up with a contract. The show (a TV show), pays nothing to these folks (other than their cost to participate), yet is the number one show in the US and their audience tunes in for the free music or talent. In the 70's, while working with 'Records of Dallas' and 'Western Merchandisers' (WM now owned by Wal Mart, servicing North American Stores and both distributors) in Texas; They routinely called on major AM and FM Stations, around the areas they covered, encouraging play of certain items, holding parties, often with the artist attending and WM, held an annual sales meeting with at least ten major artist of the day, generally Country and Western, some very big names and always a couple of newer artist and always free of charge and their was always an overflow of those wanting to attend. I'll offer you one true story, that happened well after I left...Garth Brooks was one of the newer artist, the owner of Western took a liking to, and when his first album was released, bought a million copies, launching his lucrative career. Garth returned the favor a few years later giving the eulogy at his funeral. Labels, the artist, distributors and radio stations have always worked together, are doing so this day and will do so in the future.

The 'Job's bill', I referenced through the morning update, was the much talked about, 'bill' Reid single handedly reduced from 85B$ to 15, probably to get Republican support, arguably creating very few jobs (sound familiar, Stimulus 2009). It was my error to introduce it into this discussion. By the way, that bill was passed on through the House, last night, no doubt will be signed by the President.... Back on the 'Unemployment Bill' which correctly said, has been passed and now part of the 50 States individual Budgets, as future income, reducing their deficits, adding with out regards to when and how distributed. Both bills, IMO are simply State Bailouts. The only remaining arguments I would enjoy hearing a rebuttal on, is where all that talk of urgency was coming from. Reid could have called for cloture at any point, easily getting the 60 vote requirement and it would have been over. It might be interesting to have a viewpoint linking the 2-400,000, some newly unemployed (IMO eligible) and those that had been receiving and nearing their limits (IMO not eligible), into the same purpose. Note; The bill makes no mention or is it intended to, extend weekly limitation eligibility. By the way 'swansont', States DID NOT halt payments, many publicly stating this nor would they have refused any eligible new applicant, compensation. Frankly, I'm not sure, they are obligated to continue payments, past the limitations of their State.

Bunning's point was to show the hypocrisy of the Senate, they had just passed 'Pay-go' (1/28/2010) turning around and legislating an 'Unemployment Extension Bill, (10B$) with out paying for it. "Pay-go", passed 60-40 along party lines, opposed by all Republicans, who in turn would and should have been the only ones that could voted for the bill without being hypocritical.

Pioneer; Do you believe it's possible to judge what's news or biased reporting, or maybe do you feel it would come from your own bias. Keep in mind also, the political system uses all media to their own advantage. Think Obama for instance speaks on average 2 times per day, always on several stations and most always pursuing his own agenda, seven hours alone with the HC Summit, over an hour of prime time for the 'State of the Union Speech'. In fairness, when a politician speaks, especially the President, it is news and should be aired free of cost, no less when certain leaders or pundits of both his followers and those opposing his views. IMO. If it appears that most news comes across as opposed or in favor to the reader/listener, then it's likely the source used for news, to fit their perspectives, not necessarily what's truly news. toasty; I'm sorry you have such a view of American Individualism, their ability to cope with daily problems or adverse conditions, but worse yet is your opinions of the American natural compassion for their family, neighborhood, town, city or State, not to mention the billions donated to charity or their church benevolent funds, each year, used around the World. They don't really need a Federal Government for these things, and did very well for hundreds of years, before Government got involved.