jackson33

Republicans, have been the home for Conservatives from whatever period you feel Conservatism began (Roosevelt/Goldwater/Regan). Many of the fiscal/government principles (party platform) of the Republican Party, in 2000 and 2004, have been totally ignored by both a Republican Congress, along with a Republican President and the recent selection of McCain was seen unacceptable by probably the majority of all factions in the Party, frankly McCain's recent comment on Ms. Palin and his continued speaking points on Environmental Issues, have not set well. I'll add Mr. Steele's selection to head the RNC has been luke warm at best and his comments on Limbaugh and other issues, further dividing the party. On the thread theme, however I still feel the 'grass roots' of the party are sound, getting stronger and by 2010 a good many of these lower level politicians will show up to lead a current leaderless party.

Keeping to MB, first comment after the opening post, I think the thought was to stimulate 'out of the box' comments. However what he is probably thinking about HAS been written about at various scientific levels. Big Freeze or Heat Death The Big Freeze is a scenario under which continued expansion results in a universe that is too cold to sustain life. It could, in the absence of dark energy, occur only under a flat or hyperbolic geometry, because such geometries then are a necessary condition for a universe that expands forever. With a positive cosmological constant, it could also occur in a closed universe. A related scenario is Heat Death, which states that the universe goes to a state of maximum entropy in which everything is evenly distributed, and there are no gradients — which are needed to sustain information processing, one form of which is life. The Heat Death scenario is compatible with any of the three spatial models, but requires that the universe reach an eventual temperature minimum. http://schools-wikipedia.org/wp/u/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe.htm Under 'Pulsating Universe' theory, like references have been made and as I recall with molecular action. What happens if molecular action ceases entirely and some supposed, that matter disappeared. Whether Dark Matter, Matter or a cause for deflation, heat or cold, could be involved, in my humble opinion..

Why couldn't infinity go both directions. Everything we think we know about our Universe, it's massive size, volume and content could be reduced to a speck of dust floating around in your room and if your were there, your existence would be based from that perspective, then you could see another speck of dust and imagine the same thing...on and on. We could already be a speck of dust in another existence, and so on...We know smallest has been redefined many times in the past few years, talking in nano measurements or the Technology itself. Nano inch being one/billionth and when you think of what 156 Billion light years (Said diameter of this Universe today) and the distance of ONE second being a light second or 186,200 distant miles, infinity is logical opposed to a necessity, IMO. Even today version of BBT indicates an expansion with no end, which implies infinity. It's the search for answers or the human desire to understand that makes it all worth while. Science Fiction is interesting to you, because it forces the potential possibilities into the realm of possible. In fact many of todays science endeavors have come from ideas proposed in SF and SF itself is based on what may be tomorrows science...

Stephen Hawking hospitalized, reported very ill Published: 4/20/09, 11:25 AM EDT LONDON (AP) - Famed mathematician Stephen Hawking has been rushed to a hospital and is seriously ill, Cambridge University said Monday. The university said Hawking has been fighting a chest infection for several weeks, and was being treated at Addenbrooke's Hospital in Cambridge, the university city north of London. "Professor Hawking is very ill," said Gregory Hayman, the university's head of communications. "He is undergoing tests. He has been unwell for a couple of weeks." Hawking, 67, gained renown for his work on black holes, and has remained active despite being diagnosed at 21 with motor neurone disease (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis), an incurable degenerative disease. For some years, Hawking has been almost entirely paralyzed, and he communicates through an electronic voice synthesizer activated by his fingers. "Professor Hawking is a remarkable colleague. We all hope he will be amongst us again soon," said Professor Peter Haynes, head of the university's Department of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics. Hawking had canceled an appearance at Arizona State University on April 6 because of his illness. He announced last year that he would step down from his post as Lucasian Professor of Mathematics, a title once held by the great 18th century physicist Isaac Newton, and the end of this academic year. However, the university said Hawking intended to continue working as Emeritus Lucasian Professor of Mathematics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking ------------------------------------------------------- With so much interest on 'Black Holes', Einstein or Theoretical Physicist as is Hawking, thought some might be interest in the above..Dosen't look good but our best wishes for a recovery.... Copied the entire AP release, to avoid all the advertising and a wiki profile on Steven Hawkings...

iNow; I am somewhat impressed you have taken the time to study American History with regards to culture/attitudes in the 18th century and no doubt read or seen 'John Adams' a HBO, mini series. David Mc Cullough (Historian/Author), has an incredible insight into what life was like during this period and one which I can agree with.You might enjoy reading '1776', which is the follow up to 'John Adams', going deeper into the religious aspects of the then society... http://www.greatertalent.com/backend/speakers/654/McCullough,%20David.pdf Your arguments, are against the site, I offered and not to my points. John Adams, had very little if anything to do with the actual Constitution, was a Virgina Compromise (Adams/Franklin from Ma.) and was busy in France trying to influence King Louie to help the Colonies in defeating the British, which they indeed send in their Navy, probably allowing all that followed. Frankly, as mentioned, those viewpoints would be against my philosophy, no less than yours. He (Adams) simply offered an opinion on how he felt the effectiveness of the Document (US C), would or could be influential over time. Our disagreement is on the acceptance of a majority to rule a people, where many of my beliefs including rights of same sex folks are probably not much different. I could add abortion (which gets me in trouble with my own political peers, believe Roe v Wade under a right, was just/valid) or any number of issues, like smoking (I do) which is no longer seen as acceptable. IMO, the US is and was founded by people with primarily a Christan Philosophy and have rights above what are in reality opposed to many of rights, I believe have been removed or never given by the system. Laws to me are limitations to rights and those limitations should be imposed and enforced by with some sense of equality to the TOTAL society, however it still must fall on the majority to dictate what those limitations are...Note; this does not mean the majority needs to approve, but will allow or not allow with in the society. Merged post follows: Consecutive posts merged Yes, laws in all States allow for any number of things which can be used to determine or judge an actions taken in another State. However even in heterosexual couples, these results can vary from State to State. RI, was asked to declare a marriage, they had no jurisdiction over (right) to dissolve. There are many laws, especially domestic, family or inheritance law where some States may not judge another States decision. On the millions spent; This was to emphasize the agenda aspect of that one case, the RI case was a pure waste of money IMO and if a divorce was the point (no agenda) they would have done what they are now doing. file in Massachusetts. I don't actually oppose test cases and in cases these test cases lead to changing of laws, whether or not I, you or any one person agrees with the outcome. Mokele; Nearly 50% of all marriage in the US fail today. How would referencing one SSM infer a belief in a failure of any total. As for blatant bigotry, I have no idea what your talking about. If it's against 3 yo little girls, thats simply an ignorant accusation. I don't think a 3 yo should be used to further any agenda and their daughter was used for just that purpose. I also oppose children being used in divorces of heterosexuals couples, where often times accusations of both parties influence those kids for years, even a lifetime making them the cause for the action...That one 3 yo, now 9, not only has the SSM in Mass., but the divorce of her own parents to cope with, and don't kid your self, there will be a tug of war between any two people where a child's love is concerned.

Rather than go over who/what/why religion play a role in the US Constitution, and certainly not a Christan myself, but will admit my attitudes and life experiences would not be approved of by them, I'll offer another's opinin... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Does our Constitution protect atheists? John Adams wrote, "The Constitution was written for a moral and religious people. It will not function in a society of any other." http://www.nolanchart.com/article6240.html This does not mean that atheists are not represented by the Constitution, however. It means that the framework of our society is based on principles which are viewed as flawed by the atheists. For instance, the Constitution states that the purpose of government is to secure certain rights that are endowed by "their creator." For those who do not believe in a "creator," the purpose of government cannot be defined the same. They may have a very different idea as to what the purpose of government is. Who endows them with their "inalienable" rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Over our history we have changed so many words/phases/meanings of so many words to conform to feelings of so many people, for such minor reasons, I hardly think one more would mean a thing. No, I have proposed changing the Federal Definition of who qualifies for benefits from 1F/1M to another word, to make that determination based on the States law. It wasn't my idea (wished it were) and by the way that thread was locked. In short if 80% of Americans believe their theological way of life, their Church Affiliation and/or their purposes in life, would be somehow diminished, I see no reason how this could be offensive to those the do NOT accept those principles. I would suggest many advocates (not necessarily the G/L community) feel State recognition, will lead to US Recognition and then the faith they possibly wish to be accepted in...

Example Number One; Goodridge v. Dept. of Public Health, 798 N.E.2d 941 (Mass. 2003), was a landmark state appellate court case dealing with same-sex marriage in Massachusetts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodridge_v._Department_of_Public_Health Couple Who Fought for Gay Marriage Files for Divorce The Rhode Island Supreme Court ruled in Dec. 2007 that same-sex couples who married in Massachusetts could not legally divorce in Rhode Island, because the state's family court did not have authority over same-sex marriages, reported Reuters. http://www.totaldivorce.com/news/articles/society/first-gay-couple-married-file-for-divorce.aspx BOSTON — A lesbian couple who led the fight for gay marriage in Massachusetts has filed for divorce. Julie and Hillary Goodridge were among seven gay couples who filed a lawsuit that led to a court ruling making Massachusetts the first state to legalize same-sex marriages in 2004. The couple became the public face of the debate in the state and married the first day same-sex marriages became legal. The divorce case was filed last week in Suffolk Probate and Family Court (Boston) and was not unexpected. The couple announced they were separating in 2006. Messages left for the Goodridges were not immediately returned Tuesday. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/03/julie-hillary-goodridge-t_n_163721.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ People wanting equal rights usually don't carry on to such extremes, then carrying along a 3-9 yo little girl. They fought in the MSC for what they finally got the M Congress to address, then became the poster child's for a movement, tried getting divorced in RI (Borders Mass.) taking it to the RI SC (2006), then finally filing in M (2009). I don't know where wanting equal and trying to prove some point separates, but they have cost the taxpayers of M & RI, millions of dollars, certainly played the child card and end up having done it all for nothing....However, I do agree the majority would be happy with equal rights.... You have stated and others, that the declared 'secular' Federal government should use or continue to use 'Marriage' (a religious term/concept) with regards to individuals State Laws on couples, that is discontinue the terms or legal authority for Civil/Domestic Unions and call them ALL Marriages. Why the insistence on this from a self professed atheist? Wouldn't the same result be served by calling them all some generic name, which in fact is your objective?

I have tried to learn from several Jew's, just what solution they think would satisfy both the Jewish and Islamic Faiths, if not the people. We must have covered the history of both religions and certainly the Old Testament and the Islamic Brotherhood, with out any potential solution. Logic defies any potential solution IMO, based on the diabolical differences in their interpretation of Earths final days, the basis for each existence. The 12th Imam: Why Is This Especially Important Now? While Christians look for Jesus’ 2nd coming, the Jews await the Messiah and Muslims await the 12th Imam. This notion and goal, along with a violent hatred of infidels, America and Israel reminds us of Biblical prophecies of the coming anti-Christ and the pledges of millions to a deceiving False Messiah who will claim to bring peace. Could this 12th Imam Mahdi and his servant Ahmadinejad spark the last days of the coming true Savior? http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org/12th-imam.htm ---------------------------------------------------- As for diplomacy coming from the US, I really don't think the US could ever have had or will have on any final solution, or that one is even possible. However Emanuel/Obama combined, adding a little Hillary Clinton, Sec. of State are no match for the new Israel Prime Minister Netanyahu and anything resembling a snub is not going to seen good in Israel, nor do I think he (PM) would give up the West Bank.

Your getting to be interesting; I find it hard to believe your going at this issue w/o some pre-conceived idea of 'String Theory". If wrong you might check out the following site... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory This seems to be where your thoughts are coming from, with the exception of mixing gravity and magnatism...

While I agree, we have certainly covered this issue several times over, your questions and or observations are based on two completely different subjects. There only relevance to each other are the changes in acceptance of each to the societies these changes have effected.... Sodomy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy has been around under it's current definition through written history and no doubt practiced through out human existence. Marriage is a practice of a society (generally for religious reason) to honor, recognize, glorify or giving some sanction or approval to that societies people. Though this is reasonably new (around 14th Century) rituals have probably been practiced by some societies, long before written history. Once Religious Text were written, around 1500 BC, sodomy has been condemned... http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Sodom 1-What was the oldest known same-sex marriage-like union anywhere in the world? 2-What was the oldest known same-sex marriage-like union somewhere that might be relevant to our law? 3-What was the oldest known same-sex marriage-like union, that was actually called a marriage (either officially or unofficially at the time)? 4-When was the first same sex marriage performed in the United States? Technically (1-3) only opinion can be offered, as either they precede written history or happened with out any record... 1-Aside from the Sodom reference, many cultures were thought to have large groups where homosexuality was practiced. Many references are available from Books written on the 'Roman Empire'. Then whether a learned fetish or a genetic impulse, people have probably been attracted to the same sex, since they lived much past 20-30 or where staying alive was their only concern. 2-If your talking legal/State recognized SSU and in the US, no doubt in the last few years only as States legalized. As to influence on our laws, which on these issues have followed European Laws (as an influence) probably you good look at Sweden in the 1960's. However ALL Islamics States today and back to their origin 1400's, sodomy was and is illegal and mention of SS attraction will get your head cut off, especially from a daughter or wife. Might add in Russia, India and China or up to 4+ Billion of the worlds people or their governments frown on the subject and have laws to deal harshly with those that practice SS sexual cohabitation. 3-Probably again pre-historic and recognized by the local Chief or Medicine Doctor. In the US, there have always been some Church's or Indian Reservation, that would use their authority to cater to people, where there was no place else to go. In the US, many societies honor traditions of their ancestry and even today there are no formal records available. 4- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Massachusetts ______________

What your talking about, for his observation.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecund_universe What I was thinking was basically an effort to explain and/or defuse BBT, early in it's forming under the creation principle, which was the formation of a singularity similar to what is thought occurs or occurring in the very large BH, then the joining of BH on and on to a single single unit, then bang, over and over probably infinitely into the past. ------------------------------- The oscillatory universe is a cosmological model, originally derived by Alexander Friedman in 1922, investigated briefly by Einstein in 1930 and critiqued by Richard Tolmanin 1934, in which the universe undergoes a series of oscillations, each beginning with a big bang and ending with a big crunch. After the big bang, the universe expands for a while before the gravitational attraction of matter causes it to collapse back in and undergo a bounce. http://www.reference.com/browse/Pulsating+universe

Black Hole The collapsed core of a massive star. Stars that are very massive will collapse under their own gravity when their fuel is exhausted. The collapse continues until all matter is crushed out of existence into what is known as a singularity. The gravitational pull is so strong that not even light can escape. List of the largest stars Star name VY Canis Majoris 1800-2100 times the mass of our sun, WOH G64 2000 VV Cephei A 1600-1900 V354 Cephei 1520 RW Cephei 1260-1610 KW Sagittarii 1460 KY Cygni 1420or1440 Mu Cephei (Herschel's "Garnet Star") 1420 Betelgeuse (Alpha Orionis) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_stars http://blackholes.stardate.org/resources/faqs/faq.php?id=5 --------------------------------------------- Some good sites to pick up on what a BH is and how it formed... The largest known BH, is about the size of our entire solar system. That's condensed matter with an equal gravity of all that went into it's formation. In my opinion, in Astronomy, there are no stupid questions and at worst any assumption can be made from ignorance, certainly NOT stupidity. If anything however, some will say that the BB Singularity could have been a form of a BH, resulting from a a previous collapse of the Universe, that is same and not opposite. BH do over great periods of time evaporate, not begin to expand. Kind of a process in the death of very large Stars. Our Sun is expected to condense into a 'White Dwarf' also evaporating over time. Last I heard anyway...

Actually it's yes...Black people or any ethnic group still have the same rights, under the laws to carry on any style relationship they prefer....You really need to get off this Black People vs. Same Sex....or start using White people in my opinion.

Guess MB, just wanted to taunt Ophiolite (ref; Message on Ophiolite Profile) and not interested in posting, defending his thread or the guestion "any thoughts"....so be it. --------------------------------------------------- The expansion of the universe proceeds in all directions as determined by the Hubble constant today. However, the Hubble constant can change in the past and in the future dependent on the observed value of density parameters (Ω). Before the discovery of dark energy, it was believed that the universe was matter dominated and so Ω on this graph corresponds to the ratio of the matter density to the critical density (Ωm). REFR; 2-3-4-5, article conclusion based on Refr. 6... ^ Alan B. Whiting (2004). "The Expansion of Space: Free Particle Motion and the Cosmological Redshift". ArXiv preprint. http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0404095v1. ^ EF Bunn & DW Hogg (2008). "The kinematic origin of the cosmological redshift". ArXiv preprint. http://arxiv.org/abs/0808.1081v1. ^ Yu. V. Baryshev (2008). "Expanding Space: The Root of Conceptual Problems of the Cosmological Physics". Practical Cosmology 2: 20-30. http://arxiv.org/abs/0810.0153. ^ JA Peacock (2008). "A diatribe on expanding space". ArXiv preprint. http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.4573v1. ^ Michał J. Chodorowski (2007). "A direct consequence of the expansion of space?". Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society 378: 239-244. http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0610590v3. ----------------------------------------------- The above is all in that Wiki article, backing their opinions. The conclusion is based on NOT accepting the premise of constant conditions (see their chart). If the U has been expanding, then the dynamics could not be constant over those periods of times. Note however, these are not my opinions and was offered only to argue your point of observations are of some mythical value IMO, where so much time and other conditions must have changed. Yes, your correct, BBT is based on not only the unobservable, a hypothetical scenario, but according to our science an impossible one. A singularity that just happened to be laying around dormant and was somehow activated (in some kind of nothingness) to increasing in size at logically impossible velocity over a very short period of time for all we can see though out those same 12/15 billion years in progress...IMO. Some how I have just accepted the fact that mankind with all it's wisdom, represents only a fledgling/primitive idea of what actually could be answers in Astronomy/Cosmology.

It's my belief, discontent in this country (however voiced), whether coming from 'Tax Protesters', 'Tax Reform- Fair or National Sales Tax', 'Policy implication' or any particular issue has it's roots in a failure of Federal Leadership, over at least the past 4 years, with a dramatic turn toward Federal involvement in the past year or so. This I believe has been building, since the Election of Bush 41 and 'No new taxes' on through the Clinton and Bush 43 terms and exaggerated by the extreme hands on policy of the Obama Administration (well before inauguration) and to todays continuing double talk of current or future policy. Yesterday's demonstrations, appeared to me to be a near failure, but not for the reasons you might expect. The voices I heard, were expressing talking points and from both the major parties or the media that plays to that party. There was nothing new, nothing relevant and most disturbing to me, apparently a division of thought from political affiliation (theirs), a 'me' mentality and nothing in my opinion on the best interest of the Country. I was looking for minority viewpoints, even participation and saw little to none. Basically the demonstrators were white middle class, even in my little town with a near 50/50 White/Hispanic breakdown, there were few Hispanics that participated. For an example of 'double talk' a phrase that I've often used lately, I picked out one statement by Obama, in his effort to take away the steam of this 'Taxation Movement'. It was mentioned in Fox's review of yesterdays demonstrations; http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/15/anti-tax-tea-party-protests-expected/ "Meanwhile, Obama seized the opportunity to defend his tax policy Wednesday, saying", "Make no mistake: this tax cut will reach 120 million families and put $120 billion directly into their pockets, and it includes the most American workers ever to get a tax cut. This will boost demand, and save or create over half a million jobs." ----------------------------------------------- "120 million families"??? The least number of people this could be is 240 Million people and in the US where the typical family has two parents (about 1/2) and near two kids, this would equate to about 4 to 500 million people of the total 306 Million.. Then how many families file in the first place.. 2004 131,113,969 Total Filers 42,545,501 Paid -0- Income tax "120 Billion' directly into their pockets". Some one explain to me how savings in next years taxes are going to put anything into anyone pockets or if you actually pay 1-5,000 in taxes and it's all cut (family of 1-5) you need a tax cut. I know, what he is saying they will give those that pay Social Security taxes only, will be GRANTED funds, though earned income credits and for obedience to the Federal Government. Buy this, use that or participate in some project. Other than this, it's simply an increase of Welfare and a continued policy of rewarding the failures of some. How American can you get....??? "Save or create over a half million jobs"...whoopie do, we need nearly three times that figure just to keep up with workers that retire, die, become disabled or for some reason leave the work force every year. I've never understood how a Federal Government can save a job to begin with. Only lately have I learned how they can eliminate one (CEO GM). Government jobs sure, but how long can a private sector support government workers (2+ million strong and growing, no telling how many retired) with twice the perks and 30%+ plus pay, for 60% of the productivity of the private sector. Ask GM, Ford, others still in existence working under the SAME conditions (unions) will tell you growth, growth and more growth, which they may have run out of places to grow or the thousands that couldn't handle the stress and failed....Business and/or Governments!!!

Perhaps a more complete assessment is that the interpretation of the metric expansion of space continues to provide paradoxes that are still a matter of debate.[2][3][4][5] The prevailing view is that of Chodorowski: "unlike the expansion of the cosmic substratum, the expansion of space is unobservable".[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space Actually I posted on this topic, to kind of welcome MB, with a desire he continue activity here, having known him for years. I had left his previous forum months ago, coincidentally over poor treatment of one of your current moderators and coincidentally no friend of MB. I have tried posting on 'The Original' subjects that interest me (in science) and/or would be interested in personal opinions. If I just wanted the current scientifically based theories, I could google, but feel I understand most that are current. Since I rather enjoy many of the posters here on other subjects, I just don't bother arguing Astronomy. I am an old guy, watched in disbelief over the past 60 years while what to me was a trashing of what is called 'Steady State'. IMO will in the end be accepted over what I perceive an agenda driven acceptance of a seriously flawed BBT. Sorry, if I ruffled your feathers, but what I posted, IMO could be backed up with alternative theory, though not the accepted.

I could be wrong, but think your all are missing MB point; We are that near by alien society and have assumed the Universe is expanding, possibly forever as assumed by many. We base our opinions on what we are told, feel or in some strange manner accept. If you think about it, any mention today that the U is NOT expanding, will get instant rebuttal on all the "Empirical Evidence" often a phase used here.... If however the Universe has been decreasing in diameter, say for 2 billion years and at C, we would still be seeing what was emitted from the sources of energy from a source that then existed and see nothing of of what may currently be reality. We assume beyond the estimated 13.2 bly away is nothing, for this reason, while eliminating the possibility there may be nothing there, not necessarily that 13.2 bya was the then current limits of this U...Said another way, whatever photons we capture for the duration of earths existence has long been en route and nothing emitted over 2-3 billion years ago will ever be observed by whatever ends when our Sun begins to die... If space with in the Universe has been decreasing, even from the limits at C, we would have no means to measure the lost space between objects. For all we know the distance from Earth to the moon, would have been increasing slightly more than it is and is relative to the U, getting closer to the earth. Your talking billions of years for that space between the earth and moon to lose enough space to hit the earth and no one would ever know when the collapse reached our MW.

No doubt, Gas/Diesel prices have played a roll in the decline of consumer activity in the US and the World. Bush after Gas dropped below 2.00/gallon, said it meant 2,000 per family per year in savings, so suppose it likewise meant 2,000 per over year increased cost when over 4/gallon. Additionally, truckers were adding a surcharge to each mile of transport, which hurt business as competition wouldn't allow passing on those cost. Wal Mat for instance owns it's own Trucking Company. What may be more troubling and remains an issue, is outflow of American dollars from the economy for the final product (much being refined over seas today) or the price of raw crude to be refined. I'll let T. Boone Pickens explain this, but over 2/3rds the cost of US Transportation Fuel Cost goes directly to a foreign supplier... http://www.rttnews.com/Content/AllEconomicNews.aspx?Node=B2&Id=873989 Keep in mind this was based on 40-45 dollar/barrel in February 2009 and crude has reached 126.00 recently... http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Rate/Historical_Oil_Prices_Table.asp

John; I'll go on with this discussion, but one thing you are assuming is totally incorrect. What is good for you, your Country, your traditions and culture or anyone else and theirs, IS NOT MY ARGUMENT. It's MY OPINION, based on my understanding of the US Constitution, the history of THIS people, the traditions and the laws set over time. Frankly, I am personally pleased to hear anyone talk good about their systems (health or others issues) and worry only when people from this country seem so hateful of their heritage or what made them the privileged 'homo sapians' on this planet. I call it Individualism and a level playing field for each person to achieve what ever their ambition, drive and talents will allow.... http://www.chcf.org/documents/insurance/HealthCareCosts06.pdf Requires Adobe, 24 pages but worth a read...IMO. Gives some historical understanding to when and where health care became an issue or when this care began to increase. A couple things to note; Chart page 3, 1960 annual National Overall Cost was 26B, compared to todays 2.4T with about twice the people. Today we spend about 14B alone on Cosmetic Surgery and like it or not give medical service on request by law. Pick your own source on what these estimated cost are, but hundreds of Hospitals, even non-profit have simply folded up shop, gone private or into a specialty not required to service emergencies. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4190/is_20070831/ai_n19502805/ As a proponent of Immigration Reform, it's hard for me to argue restricting the use of American Facilities for Mexican Nationals, but yes it does drive up the cost of service, under supply/demand if nothing else. Were talking about 2-4 million living in Mexico daily, that visit legally through check points and receiving service, where no questions can be asked, even if they cared to ask. Then up to 20 million, scattered through out the country doing work Americans probably will no longer do but do get sick, have accidents, domestic issues or what ever it takes to require medical attention. Near 7000 people die alone in the US EVERY DAY, 2.5 million a year, 1/8th your total population, and I have no idea how many get injured or sick in any one day. We have over 1 million legally enter this country each year, have legal work programs, school student exchange programs, the largest diplomatic representation on the planet and a host of programs allowing certain people into the country for emergency reasons, temporarily or permanently. I am sure you and most industrialized countries have similar programs, but I assure you nothing near the figures of the US. Admittedly, some are required to have and maintain 'International Insurance' and many have sponsors agreeing to pay unexpected cost. The long and short of UHC in the US, not mentioned (that I know of) is the current Globalization of Business activity. As the only Country where Corporations/Business, still offers insurance under some system of co-payment, business is handicapped to compete with those foreign competitors have no such expense. We have held a 'productivity' level or efficiency over most for many years, but this is fading where aged factories and models have been utilized. I would have liked a constructive discussion on my 'District Insured Program' for use in the US, using the correct number of districts. (will address that figure later). Anyway you look at it, people are going to pay the Government or the Insurance Company for the medical needs of the total. I feel localizing where needs do differ, those persons will pay for their problems, opposed to everyone being responsible for everyone else. That takes away incentives which are essential to quality or a desire to be the best. As for Private Sector vs. Government, until government creates a means to take funds and increase the value of those funds, IMO it's not arguable. ParanoiA; My 365 district error was more than minor. As many post I've offered on Congress that 435 should have rolled out without a thought and then to dissect it to 365 borders the error on dementia, which us older folks always worry about. Any way yes you are correct 435 and I'll place the dissections at 250-125 and 60. Setting the dynamics of a FUTURE US Health Care System, is the argument, not that one will happen. Once established, Act one FDR New Deal, Act two Johnson's Great Society it becomes American Policy and to be built on. What's being proposed is New Deal II and a final act to National UHC. Frankly what is established or has been established elsewhere is dependent on the society it exist in. The US has built a social/economic society/structure around an ever increasing population, where these internals are fighting themselves. Conservatives have for some reason opposed immigration or the same people the Corporate World has encouraged into this country for 50-60 years and yet opposes UHC to protect the same business that requires them and would support that increasing population. Liberal thinking is to increase the population however achieved, but to limit business or their ability to access a working class (higher wages/cost/taxes). Neither in my opinion is making much sense. We have an aging population, like it or not and with age comes an increase in medical needs, which will cost more and more regardless of who pays what or collects from who, those cost. Mentioning dementia, we have 78M baby boomer's, and expectations are by 2050 for up to 17M Americans with Alzheimer's alone, there are other forms of dementia, in the US. I don't know if you have checked out cost per Nursing home resident but it can be 6-8k per month per patient, plus other medical treatments or medications for the current KNOWN 5 or so million around today. An interesting article on Australia and the problem; http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/27/1053801395981.html In the US; http://www.globalaging.org/health/us/2007/alzheimers.toll.htm I don't really like going here but it's important when Government is the last resort for medical assistance IMO. Euthanasia is Governments only alternative when funding for something becomes impossible, for whatever the reason. It happens every day already with insurance when body parts are just not availably or where some personal habit (drugs/alcohol/smoking/age) are considered in who gets what or who is first serviced.

--------------------------------------------------------------------- The probability is your Federal distributes funds according to population, mandates a great deal of policy and any short falls either are made up by the State or they reduce/delay services. All indications from your post it's reduced services... I'll make this up on the fly; In the US we have 365 Congressional Districts, each with between 6-800k people. LA and Orange Counties California have around 25 Districts, where Alaska, Montana, Wyoming and four other STATES have one district. Our Insurance Companies would love to set up any district with some form of Group Policy (something close today already exist with Auto/Home/Fir/Flood and other forms of insurance). With one Company per one district, you can bet the top 10-30 Financial Institutions that carry Health Insurance would fight over probably 250 of these districts contracts (say good for a 10 year period). There would be little trouble with another 100 districts, with somewhat higher cost (exist under tax structures today) and maybe 65 that would be to costly for any one Company to handle. If no acceptable bids were received (probably for cost per person) the district could accepts dual insurance from two sources. Point being a district responsibility, governed by the State. A deductible insured by one at a higher price for up to 10% of all cost and the primary covering 90%, either based on first cost or all cost. There are so many potential ways to go, it would be hard to explain... I would like to see Medicare/Medicaid go private with in some program, including disability. States today are the arbiter of Federal spending and there is no incentive to restrict access by the State, quite the opposite. SS, which was at one point optional in the US (two Texas Counties do not participate, with remarkable results from an alternative system) and there has been talk of privatizing SS. It is probably to late, as of this year. more is going out than coming in and 8-10 years ahead of previous estimates. Redistribution is commonplace, even with the private sector. The difference is, government has no means to increase the value of premiums, does have the authority to distribute as seen fit and is 100% totally unregulated. They make up the regulations to fit their desires to maintain power and possibly control over the populace. The private sector, is responsible to their consumer under contract law, has no more right to break those contracts than the customer and HAS a means to increase the value of paid premiums. It's no different than buying stock or a portion of some company, which you would do hoping they increase in value and/or pay a dividend/premium, which is the persons choice to participate in some manner. Our taxes are an investment to the operation of government (Local/State/Federal) to whats expected by each government as has been set out under State/Federal Constitutions, Local Charters and sets of laws in each State or under the Federal Jurisdiction. Again; Home/Auto/Business/Life, many others including all kinds of Health Insurance are available with in the private sector TODAY. Most work just fine including MOST of the Health programs. You and UHC proponents keep coming back to cost per person in the US. I would suggest, the cost includes thousands of programs, for programs around the world or around the US and once again to the 20-30 millions folks not citizens (legal/illegal) who take advantage of laws the medical industry must follow, not to mention mandates by one or another government on what is required or that medical facilities are obligated to by little restriction in tort law to question...We have a several thousand mile boarder with Mexico and Canada, hundreds of towns, especially along the Mexican Boarder that have relied on American Health Care for a hundred years, paid for or not. We also have a large number of affluent folks, who spend billions each year non essential non-medical problems (Cosmetic Surgery/Sex Change), have routine visits for psychiatric assistance and a very large prison population all of which get class A medical attention...

Percentage wise most BR are filed by older folks and IMO for a variety of estate reasoning. In short it's the poor person answer to a living trust for those with with wealth. Keeping to the Health Care problem, we have about 7 MILLION, auto accidents every year in the US, resulting in somewhere around 40k Deaths, many more injuries and many involve LONG term care, say for life. Then we do have 'by choice' a large number of the 21-55 age group (where most uninsured are) that lose their bet with the odds, get sick or injured or the traditional 3-5/6% of unemployed (lost insurance or the funds to buy) that become sick or disabled while w/o insurance. (remember by law they have the right to maintain insurance, if under a policy while working). Michigan courts handle at least 265,000 Chapter 7's a year, not to mention the less common 11's and 13's for individuals. Of these and not distinguished are a large number of failed business ventures and I would bet most these involve some local/State/Federal Tax problem, not even excused by bankruptcy. Michigan economy has really been hurt over the past ten years of so, but even 11.6k of the 265k, seems rather low where a $50k medical debt is a contributor. As for all the States (Michigan has 10+ million people, about 1/30th the total) so your talking 350,000 Nationwide filings, think about 1/3rd the average failing of business alone, a drop in the bucket. The UK and especially Australia are not the US or necessarily like any of our 50 States and 5 territories. This is my argument and the point of feeling people in one State will not want to responsible for people in other States. Frankly, in States like California, folks outside metropolitan areas are not happy being taxed for city life problems and prevalent in NYC and everything else which is called up-state NY. Then go back to State on State and under Federal, half the population KNOWS they are paying for many the needs of the other half and with UHC this will be taken to extremes. We also have pre-existing problems in our SS and HC services set up under previous government, which are NOT sustainable today. Adding to these future problems with larger numbers is building a class war fair scenario, nobody wants...

As I have said on other threads, Bush was the first President to my limited knowledge to declare an economical crisis with anything close to a 700B possible fix. We have had a good many bubble burst over the years, with a much higher cost to the 'Private Sector', the Tech 2000 for instance was well into the trillions, with no Federal involvement. Hundreds of High Tech Companies closed their doors, filing chapter 13, millions lost their jobs and investor/bankers suffered tremendous losses and I'll add have never recovered those losses from Tech. Then I rememberer an interview with Reagan, after '41' had won his election saying he "had done everything right", ending the comment with "and helping getting a republican elected". GWB was at that interview, and I've wondered if he took that personal, trying to help McCain being elected and went along with what may have been a political stunt. I can't and won't pursue getting the dots in order, but other facts have bothered me with Paulson's connection to China, Banking, the Federal Reserve and lately now the Revelation that many if not most banks wanted nothing to do with TARP money. I don't think it was anybodies intent to destroy the economy or even have it disrupted to near what actually happened. I do think Emanual and Alxlerod could have advised differently, simply holding off social programs and encourage the markets (private sector) and whatever bad is ahead, could have been avoided. The market is simply trading in a range, which is based on felt future events. In this case and as of last Thursday, not very much is going to happen. I have played it from 7000 to 8000 but will probably pull back later next week, pending the Teabag Demonstration results on Wednesday. You asked if this gain, which is at best a minor gain back of a tremendous loss, was temporary? In short my response was as before; It's all up the the US Congress and the current Administration. Think you already know my feelings on which actions or lack of actions will move the markets, either below 7k or above 9K...

There is a 'Boston Tea Party', Party and was on several State ballots in 2008, but don't think affiliated with this movement. This appears to be self organized (grassroots) from many locations, gaining strength from local to now National coverage, including Fox. Point being their objection is taxation as a pending result of current and planned spending... http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/tax-day-tea-party-planned-to-protest-government-spending-78505.html?showComments=true Just one of thousands of articles, ALL claiming no political affiliation to any party, in particular the Republicans. Democratic pundits are trying to place it as Republican Protest against Obama and some individuals trying to jump on board for whatever reason. Roger Ailes, head of Fox News Channel and several commentators are known Conservatives and it would follow they cover a story compatible to their philosophy. However they have covered Democrat Conventions, Million Man March and other events as news stories, they may not agree with. I think you'll find every major newspaper in the US has been covering some aspects and will cover local events on 4/15, 7/4 and Beck's 9/12 may draw legs from these outcomes. Side note; Rush Limbaugh has been preaching for a couple years (since 2006 Democrat taking Congress) that Republicans to become a viable party again, must begin at the local level. Winning City elections, State Houses mayors and then back to the Federal Congress, which he feels has been ignored, since the 1994 victories.