jackson33

Mars is said to have an atmosphere of 95% Carbon Dioxide (CO2), 3% Oxygen. CO2 is one part (atom) Carbon and two parts oxygen. This as a liquid/gas/solid item, differs by barometric pressures, as well as the natural half life (breakdown) of the substance. On earth its said to be no more than 100 years. Many folks, for other reason, on earth are trying to improve the breakdown of CO2, such as currently done (to degree) by catalytic converters. I understand there are some offering big rewards for new ways to do this, in time we should have a means. Another way would be, to artificially raise the surface temperature (reflection/magnification or additional heat source) to say 60-70 degree F, make a large section of land suitable for plant life and introduce this life for a natural place for carbon to be stored (as much is in forest, plant life) on earth today, the natural production from the heat (introduced H2O if required) would begin a process, which could generate its own atmosphere. The altering of comets, asteroids to a collision course for Mars has been suggested to add elements to Mars as well. Not so much for gravity, since the amount required would heat the plant, taking a very long time to cool back down. Mass transfer by laser beams, another current theory and in experiment with some success could be a means to transfer substance to Mars, well into the future. Mars, is most referred to for terraforming, but Venus and our own moon are possible targets. Venus, also very high CO2 (96%) quite warm at 480 degree C, which is not beyond the proper atmosphere to keep from affecting the planet. My problem with all the current ideas, is the probable existence of micro-ism's which should exist (even if dormant) which the human species may not ever be able to adapt to. Or at least it would take a great deal of time, as it did on earth, about 4 billion years to evolve the proper atmospheric/biological conditions.

There is still some time, before the 08 poles close, but for some time and as of today IMO, the elections of 08, are Hillary Clinton's to lose. As a die hard, Conservative/Republican/Capitalist, I see no electable republican in the race or on the horizon. I would like to see a Newt/Thompson ticket from what available, however thats very unlikely... Obama IMO is running for the 2012 or maybe 2016, with his current campaign. Hillary, would, never accept the second spot on any ticket.

Media, caters to its audience or the audience they desire to have. Science is not on the minds of most people to begin with, those interested having their own sources to keep up updated. *foxnews.com*, has the best Science category of any network, I have seen. However for actual air time, even they tend to give only one or two topics per day over the airways...

S; Pretty much covered your last post, while answering your first. I have been told, I have no sense of smell. Possibly this has influenced my opinions and many folks I talk with may have low degrees of this sense. In arguing my points, the idea of personal responsibility has been lost. Anyone who has started the habit in the past 50 years, has had some idea of what could be an end result. I recall displays of *Smokers Lungs*, which were not pretty, but it didn't influence me a bit. For what ever reason I do die of, society will call it from *tobacco products*, regardless what kills me. This to me is the fallacy of the entire issue. You have apparently quit, I assume with some problem. I can only admire you or any person, that makes a decision, sticks to it, until over.

Since you comment infers personal experience, what could I say. Again I can only tell you what others have told me, over years of interest on the subject. To complicate matters, its now said drug addicts by chemical can be withdrawn from dependency w/o ill effects. Smokers may just continue a meal or eat more when that built up urge to smoke take hold. I really don't know, but many do think they felt no symptoms. Many couples I have known do quit together, where one will gain weight and the other not. Many older folks are addicted to simple habits, like playing card, chess or something simple to the average person. They often die, when this hobby is taken or no longer available. Any habit or practice in life can have the same outcome. This tells me the need for substance in life, smoking, playing card or what have you can be beneficial regardless of consequences. Cigar smokers, take this idea to the limits...Clubs, magazines, type (makers), gatherings, reunions and the like....

The reason, I mention a dislike in taking certain cases to prove/disprove an argument is so many people are influenced outside sources, feeling the end results of something was from that source. I probably know as many who quit giving *cold turkey* as there means. Here again many recall no withdrawal problem, with an occasional mention of coughing up stuff... Currently a big problem is *body weight* with hundreds of diet, remedies and pills offered to combat or assist in losing weight. Each and that means all of them, mention two things. You have to want to lose weight and you have to exercise. The only known cause for losing weight is to consume less calories than you use in activity...EAT LESS. The same hold true for smoking or for that matter most any addictive drug, legal or otherwise....JUST STOP. Not only does the medical profession, disagree with my opinion on this issue, 75% of the general public does. I can use their figures on official deaths in the US are (yearly-daily) and let you compare to the actual numbers of smokers, overweight, aged or other problems the human has. Heart 654,000-1791; Cancer 550,270-1507; Stroke 150,147-411, Respiratory 123,884-340; Accidental 108,694-300. IMO; If no one on this planet had ever smoked a cigarette or ever heard of tobacco, the figures would be the same, the cause for being one other reason mentioned above... Reminder; I do not promote smoking and feel for many reasons people should quit if for any reason they feel it best. My arguments relate to the ways and means the whole issue evolved. Even here its the previous issues handled in the same manner and the ones I see coming.....

Not to the degree, people expect or as portrayed by media. My point, was on this issue, was that IMO smoking is a *something to do* habit, opposed to some compulsion to feed a chemical into the brain. This could go to having something to do with the mouth, I don't know, but people in quitting do tend to replace it with gum chewing, food or something to keep the mouth busy. SLance; Since I have run out of ways to show how figures were computed and I don't like taking individual cases to justify or confirm the total, I will suggest you review some legal cases. It was determined later in the process that *class action* could not be used and the individual cases almost w/o exceptions have come to different conclusions for death, or that the user had ample warning. Now lets take the 2000, cause for death statistic. In 2000 and still pretty close, the US records 6000 deaths every day. This means 1 in 4 (about 1500)of all deaths were from smoking or the use of tobacco products. My contention and purpose for entering this debate is that this a contrived figure. If you add up estimated cause for deaths per day of all the reasons people die for medical, accidental or natural causes, that figure is also 6k per day. The smoke related cannot be determined IMO.

Of all the legal products which give mankind the most grief, it must be alcohol. Certainly I am not talking about your Red Wine, or my beer pleasures but the great numbers of people, who are simply are going to become addicted. These folks, will have kids, husband and families which will be have their lives torn apart, all premature to what should be. All the things giving smokers that social standing are ten fold in the drunk, only comparable to the drug addicts which claim more lives, property and personal grief than any habit. I can't argue the progressive nature of *nicotine addiction* or what it does or does not do for any particular group. IMO, it has more to do with doing something, than any real relaxation. Myself, I have only smoked 60 years, never really much more or less then than now and in doing some jobs, would find myself going days w/o smoking or even the realization I had not. The withdrawal idea, what you see in drugs is not what people go through, that I have known, read about or would expect if I decided to just quit and must be individual. Most smokers that I have talked to, on this subject, don't ever wake up to smoke or if woke for other reason, then light up. Once again, I find myself apologizing for arguing something which I would discourage for every one who would listen. The points of any of my post on the subject is how little things become such great big problems. World wide about 1 in 4 adults smoke and 3 in 5 are overweight. A product that cost 25 cents to produce/merchandise/retail (one pack) cost the consumer 2.00 to 8-9.00 to purchase. Social structuring is continuing and soon we will wonder where the simplest of pleasures have gone.

Mesothelioma Cancer (Lung-Chest).... Google *attorney's for* and claim you worked abound asbestos and they will find a way to take your occasional cough in to pending Meshothelioma, even today and claiming you deserve millions. My point was the setting up of society to conform to the general trend of victim hood.

Seems, like once or twice a week I do respond to some question, where a person seems to question his/her activity. The reason, I suppose I do respond is the notion that sex itself is NOT a bad thing. Most all of us have mind driven fetishes which we never practice in real life. Blue; In short, I don't see the reactions, apparently you have...

And alcohol destroys brain cells. There are very little human activities that in some manner CAN harm the person. Getting into an automobile, being the worst killing or injuring millions each month around the world. Drinking water maybe next... Again, my problem lies in the histories of such hysteria driven and over blown would be/could be problems which many people find enjoyable, or some business activity is opposed. Lets try one of the first. Lead based paints, which in there day said killed million of kids, never mind that the parents of those kids survived childhood and that same lead based paint. Then lets move to Asbestos, which claimed was the cause for ALL respiratory problems for years, never mind most of the world today, still disagrees or that otherwise strong viable companies with thousand of workers were destroyed by the hysteria. Solving problems, via government/groups extremest has never worked or will it ever. The original Anti/Smoking groups, openly stated that they only wanted private places in some places to eat. Governments mandated this in some places around the US, which shortly lead to the smokers being classified some kind of pervert wanting to kill every one else with their second had smoke. People, for some reason seem to have a need to try and influence society to what they believe are the correct ways to live. I call this the *Little Old Lady* syndrome, which live in every neighborhood. The ones that call the cops for every little thing, the ones that tell their neighbors how to raise kids or the social workers just looking for means to give their jobs purpose. In all honesty, there is no limits to where this will lead. Even in todays news, some are wanting Home Depot, to house and care for ILLEGAL immigrants looking for work on or near their property.

Dak; I am a little uncomfortable, arguing against the idea's you feel are justified. However there can be an argument made on many issues which have evolved over the past 200 years of history, other than smoking. The average truck exhaust systems of say the 50's, would kill outright many forms of life on contact and its really not much better today, but there is no said link to truck driving having an identical life span, say to doctors. Accepting this as said, then its also said TD, smoke at near a 50% rate. This tells me in reading between the lines, something does not add up. Food preservatives are no less important in the discussion as they to are or could cause problems in some people. The practice also directly related to the advancements of smoking. Skeptic; Can you imagine, all the other possibilities that smoker's involved themselves with that could cause the end results. Life styles of smokers do vary some from non smokers. Back when pipes where the choice of tobacco users, say the first ten US presidents, all pipe smokers (I think) lived to an average age of 73, when the public was lucky to average 50, or so its said. In those days it was the prestigious thing to do, where the commoner, could not afford the practice. Luke; Be careful in assuming your desire to smoke and to some limit, as it will change with time. The average smoker, in the past and the current are about 10 packs per week, or that carton. The International life expectancy is 65 years, with many Countries (primarily in Africa and the Mis-East) are as low as 40-45, where they also have the highest level of adult smokers. Then you have some Countries high up on the percentage of adult smokers, which life span is in the 70's. This tells me there are other reason, even obvious where other matter are the problems given to what is still perceived a legal product, cause for death...

The one area where smokers have caused and will continue to cause problems, relates to accidental fires. From the single family home, to the apartments/hotel/motels, to the forest fires and all the the events I am sure fall under their responsibility. Where its true lung cancer/consumption was not a major problem, I would say in the 19th Century, neither were a host of other problems. In most places you died, cause of death and recording that cause were rarely filed and you got buried. However the connection between the 50 year life expectancy then and the rise of the tobacco industry, the point of my argument. I can't find a source, but my guess would be no less than 50% of adults from WWI on to about 1970, was steady. Of course the numbers increased as the population and life expectancies increased. The actual fact that tobacco problems did not slow down the rise in this increase and that the social engineering that came to be did slow it. The current 75 year figure has been constant since about 1990, while the decline in smokers declined to about 20-25%. As previously argued, we were ALL exposed to smokers, prior to 1990. Either in the home or workplace or the host of place we entertained. That is nobody should be exempt from smoke related if you use the modern day theory. Women smoked holding for delivery and work places and bars had the same atmosphere. When ever you can, look at a group of people, from the 30's to the 70's and you will see a healthy looking group. Then check out todays average sight. You will see a vastly over weight society. I suppose my problem with social attitude ends up being what government does in response. Here, higher and higher taxes and mandates related to every issue involving that 1 in four smoker. Whether gambling, drinking or anything figured moral there is a trend in society to make anything entertaining to all subject to some narrow view of what should be.

Ozone, is found in the lowest atmosphere (Troposphere) however 90 percent is found in the Troposphere or second of four layers. The so called holes seem to be over the poles, but Ozone is produced from extreme heat, such as lightning, influencing oxygen. Ozone is not a layer but is scattered. The temperatures of this second layer are generally below zero (5-60F) in all the second layer, with the coldest layer being the third or Mesosphere which approach minus 200 degree F, the coldest place on earth, if atmosphere is included. Ironically the fourth layer or Ionosphere temperatures can reach 7-800 degree above zero.

The Death Certificate scenario, was as told to me by an agent in charge of such things in Texas. The reason I contacted him, was my folks both smoked, with Dads death recorded "related", Moms "unrelated". He went on to explain when relatives or friend are available, what they say is what is used and when no one available assumptions are often made. My sister, who represented the family, said she had NOT. They were both however well over 80 and Dad did weight nearly 300 pounds (5ft7 waist 60in) and did die in an auto accident. The statistics are flawed IMO... My, questioning the logic is this along, with the 80 year correlation in life expectancy increase and the growth of the tobacco industry, which do not coincide with what should have happened with the decreased activity in the past 20 years. Add to this the current hysteria over second hand smoke, which every one has been subjected to, we should have been dieing off long ago earlier and earlier ages. Not true and in the past 15-20 years expectancy has been stable, with a rapid increase over that previous 80 years, increasing from about 53 to the 75, which is where its been for 15 years. I am not promoting smoking, for reason I have stated but there are reason for a medical understanding of what tobacco usage could have meant, not requiring the act of smoking. Nicotine has some benefits, frustration and anxiety are real problems, controled now with medication, but by smoking in the past and a few other such questions which need addressing.

In the US, on the death certificate ask for cause of death, followed by only one question. "Did the person ever use tobacco products", which must be answered yes or no (when of no importance). Regardless of cause the if that person smoked and a relative/friend recalls from years ago, that person dieing from any cause is a statistic and tobacco related. The fact he/she is 100-110, weight 400 pounds and shot him/her self statistically that person died as a result of tobacco use. As for that 100 yo or maybe 200 such other stories I could mention, has it occurred to you that smoking is how long life was achieved. Even with mentioning the above as related cause, many problems are creeping up to challenge the No. One cause of death... John; Rush Limbaugh, had an answer for your question better than mine, so I'll quote hime.....There is a 100% chance that eating carrots will kill you. A survey made in 1900, showed that every one surveyed had at some time eaten a carrot or carrots. Almost all are now DEAD, and the couple still around really look bad, expected to die soon.

Luke; As a life time smoker, from a family of lifetime smokers and a family background based in the industry; I would suggest just dropping the future habit and taking up something less filthy, more acceptable to todays society and by all means....cheaper pleasures. there is no threshold of expectations. Death as caused by smoking I can't in honesty buy, or any particular health problem and there are some positive reactions the body could achieve. put another way, people die and no one ever picked up a pipe, cigar or cigarette, smoked it and rolled over dead. the odds are you will die from any number of other probabilities long before smoking could, if indeed it can effect a person. my comments are going to attract some astonishing statistics which when given I will counter. Again though, the society i am guessing you will be part of for some time will increasingly be less tolerable, maybe in your time even making it illegal or at best very costly 10-20.00 per PACK and will certainly need to clean your space a few times more often that the non-smoker...why not just take up jellybeans, worry about diabetes and get along with your generation???

Martin; since you slid a perceived Republican viewpoint, where is that time line will the tree huggers of the world, admit THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO, become a realization???

with the advent of 24 hour news, the Internet and the flow of information, i have become increasingly distrustful of our judicial system. from the 9th circuit decisions, to setting free obvious murderer's (OJ) to the prosecutions of Duke La Cross Students and on down the line to the 50 or so set free after years of imprisonment and DNA evidence. i then understand what i would feel if some one put my daughter threw what some of these kids must endure and wonder whats the use. with that 50 % change the crimes will continue on to another and unless they are dead or in prison the changes are some kid will end up dead. i don't know for sure what the perfect catch 22 may be, but its seems close to this issue. first, i am not sure 99% of the so called sex offenders are indeed sex offenders. if any of those 20 or so recent lady teachers had made a move on me while i was in school, the offender could well have been me. we would have called that something good and bragged for years. then there are many who come from places where a sex offense is nothing like what it means in the US. then you have the accusing wife or husband during a heated divorce where the custody depends on some form of abuse. i won't bother you with the 19 year old getting caught on knob hill with a 17 year old girl, or the seduced male, saying the wrong thing at the wrong time at getting hung out to dry by a vindictive female or now days even other male. as some one said if the laws for capital punishments are violated, then follow those laws.

guess, your thinking that our future is happening as we live and that some scientist will figure our time travel of sorts, come back and explain the facts. paradox or the distortion of events created from addition of knowledge then being reason. this might make good SF, think its been done, but in reality not a possibility under any theory imaginable.

while i agree with you, to change would take a constitutional amendment, which would have to start in congress. this is highly unlikely to start with but if it were proposed, voted favorably, sent to the president and signed it would still require 3/4 of state approval which is even less likely to happen. the current Governor of NM, Democratic Presidential Candidate and having served in US government, was born in California (purposely) from two Mexican Nationals. the Mom flown to LA area, gave birth, baby and mom returned to Mexico City. i might add the school systems along our southern boarder are overflowed with US citizens crossing the boarder each day to attend school and receive welfare. not often talked about are the requirements for a any person to enter the US at the regular border crossing. going shopping, going to work or sight seeing the most common and all perfectly acceptable. no other requirements. in fairness this works for US citizens crossing into Mexico as well, but normally most, if not all, return to the US. the courts have made denial of aid, or human resources the obligation of our system regardless of any status. just the fact the person is in the US, is all the courts require to enforce the practice. with the UN and so many internationals from the hundreds of programs available this will never be changed.

legal migration to the US since about 1820, has been pretty much constant in percentage. currently its about a million folks from around the world. illegal, temporary and guest programs laws were at one time enforced. todays supreme court actions have made enforcements near impossible, since every person in the US has the same legal and social rights of any naturalized American. as these laws became unenforceable or no effort was made to enforce, illegal entry became the ideal method to live in the US. all the rights and assurances, the probability of amnesty in time and the idea your on no surveillance list, or required to do what legals are forced to do. as for open boarders, the Government receives about 3-5 million request for legal entry each year picking out that million. many other, especially in 3rd world countries don't bother to request as the waiting list from some places may be 20-40 years. the boarder patrol, claims to have returned 1 million people back to Mexico, in the past 12 months. under some estimates 2-3 million were missed. most feel the total immigration figures into the US each of the past 10 years is no less than 30 million, 10 million legal or under some timed program. over staying your visa or permitted time then makes you an illegal. keep in mind, anyone born in the US is and always has been considered a US citizen. that 20 million probable illegals give birth to legal citizens.

employers are required to check identification, not verify which is where the problem stems. its said, in LA you can get a complete package, SS Card, Drivers License, even a birth certificate for about 50.00. no, immigrants generally just work harder than the average American. the pay is always above the minimum required by law, especially today when work forces are in demand. long time workers have moved up the scale to construction, warehousing and so on...farm workers in California can get 15.00 per hour under the current conditions... since many migrants are in their first year, working in households or on day jobs there may be some abuse. this however will go on, regardless of legal or illegal....

some of the very first Big Bang Theory, was based on the notion, the universe did expand and contract, that the contraction led to another BB and so on. currently few think this as most are assuming the expansion is an never ending process. when you get down to all things repeating them selves in each cycle your really play with the odds. we can see matter in the universe as its dies, as it forms and how it acts in various stages of existence. our visions are from things that were from a few thousand years ago and with diminishing clarity back to billions of years in the past. i prefer to think cells, elements or what ever you feel are the smallest parts of matter, do regenerate forming new stars, solar systems, energy and what have you. this is the only cycle observable or understandable to our limited knowledge. when our planet dies and then the sun, it will all become debris is space, which will reform and become a new something. your cells your phone book, even our atmosphere will likely never be these items again, regardless of time.

unfortunately, IMO, there are no viably electable republican candidates to choose from. even Fred Thompson, would come close politically but standing next to his wife, would be rejected by the majority of the women and many of the men from the solid base. another person, even more fitting would be Newt G., which has much the same problem. unless some one comes out of the woodwork, which i do not see happening Hillary has the election to lose. if she fails the primary system, which i don't see happening, a true conservative republican with little baggage pops up then this scenario IMO is 75% probable. worse than this in my view, she will have a democratic congress, to get many of her social programs started. i am basing this more on the immigration issue, then the war, however both are so confusing the media and public have ignored the economy which has long been the judge of a parties success....