Greatest I am

Are you saying that Christians do not believe that Jesus became their scapegoat and died for their sins? Even as scripture says that that is B S and that God would reject such an immoral act. Please show the logic trail that explains why an omnipotent God, who knows all things, would create a species that he has to die for. Regards DL I will try to be more politically correct even as I find that to be hypocritical. I did not see my statement as personal because I see them that way as a group. Regards DL

Let me repeat--- It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists. They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1 They also do much harm to their own. African witches and Jesus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related Jesus Camp 1of 9 Promoting death to Gays. For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing. Fight them when you can. You say that most Christians are good people and you may be right even as the U S, a Christian nation, has the most in jail, per capita, than most other first world nations. That aside though, I have yet to see any Christian start a post showing the crap that they do and denouncing it. They may be good but not good enough to clean up their own act. Regards DL

A God to blame for all conditions. Anything is better than theists stepping up and taking responsibilities for our own actions. Note how far up Jesus' ass Christians have put their heads to insure that they never have to take their responsibility for their sins. Regards DL

I sniped for brevity. Thanks for this. Is the story of Noah’s flood, as set out in scripture, not a genocidal act? As to free will. God’s idea of free will seems to be ----do things my way or burn forever. Do you really see that as free will and not a threat? Regards DL

Why do you follow a genocidal God? Bible God, the un-knowable one, has been described in scriptures by someone claiming to know much of the un-knowable God. How the un-knowable can be know has yet to shown. On reading scriptures, some have concluded that Bible God is quite immoral. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK1DbcIbHt4&playnext=1&list=PLC76727A34E740D99 I tend to agree based on moral reasons and would like to keep the discussion on morality without going into whether God is real or not. Something that we cannot prove. We can prove though whether we think Bible God acted morally or not. The first followers of Bible God, the Jews, also seem to agree with Dawkins and myself. Genocide, or attempted genocide is considered by most to be a low moral position. Followers of a Hitler or Stalin, who would try to justify their genocidal actions, would not be well received by most of us. Why then do you think that we should join you in following a God who takes the moral low ground of genocide instead of doing the right moral thing and curing instead of killing those he thinks defective? As a religionist myself, I can understand seeking God but why would we want to seek, or follow a genocidal one? What attracts you to a genocidal God? Is it just that might makes right? We are to emulate God. Does that mean that you too would use genocide as a form of what most believers think of as good justice? Regards DL

It certainly is relevant. If un-workable laws are given, they are obviously wrong and poorly thought out. As to your last. That is the position of the Church. Not the position of Jesus or bible God. As I said, his is not workable or moral. “On what reasonable grounds do you propose that I should ignore them?” First. Because they begin with a talking snake and end with a seven headed monster. Second. Because they ignore the laws of nature and physics and are based on hear say only without a shred of evidence. One should not ignore logic and reason for faith. Faith without facts is for fools. If your view is better, then I have some dry land in Florida for sale at a good price. Lets deal. Regards DL

Chilehed “Okay. So we've established that we can't reject an allegedly historical account merely because it records a miracle.” Not to bog us down in semantics but I would have said it another way. I would say that we cannot accept the miracle part of whatever historical account is being told. To me, not accepting it is not quite the same as rejecting it. I just shelf the issue in my speculative thinking file or look for some other meaning to the story. Legally I guess a court would say that I reject it and the court would be right. “ The question here is whether or not there's sufficient evidence to convince a reasonable person that miracles occur, and my position is that there's more than enough. “ What is this evidence. I hope it is not just hear say or Bible say. Greatest I am, on 12 July 2011 - 11:48 AM, said: Even then, most of what he said is un-workable rhetoric. Like his divorce laws. Let no one divorce, is silly and immoral. Chilehed - Your reply That's called the fallacy of the undesired result. Just because you don't agree with what he said doesn't mean that he didn't say it... and the argument rests on the assumption that he did exist, he did say it and it was accurately recorded. You're quite effectively sawing off the limb on which you sit. I did not say it was not written that way. I said it was rather useless rhetoric that does not work. Would you tell a woman that gets beat twice a week to not seek a divorce? Regards DL

I agree. We should all walk our talk and not just with religion. Regards DL

Faith without works and proof is false faith. Scriptures, on the issue of works, contradict each other. Some scriptures and Christian sects push the notion that faith alone in God is all that is required to earn heaven. Some scriptures indicate that without works, living the theology and applying it to reality, that whatever faith we claim to have is useless and that those souls are lost. The notion of being part of a community where individuals looked out for each other and shared whatever it had was the key and the only reason Christianity became the religion that it is today. I mean this in the sense or size only. In reality, Christianity no longer bases it’s theology and being saved on works. Perhaps this is why the Church is so fragmented today and losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the population. People usually do what they see as profitable in one way or another for themselves. Today, looking at Christianity, from inside or outside, the population does not see a profit in remaining in or joining Christianity due to this notion that faith is all that is required. Without works, will Christianity die? Do you have to live your faith or is faith without works and good deeds good enough? What was it that James told Peter. Demons have faith in God and it is likely stronger than man’s faith because they know for certain of God’s reality yet it does them no good. Faith, belief that is not based on proof, is thus useless. Regards DL

If you had a goose that was said to lay golden eggs, would you prepare a roost or the oven? Regards DL

The ancients would lay siege to foreign battlements for years for gain and you can’t see them putting a miracle worker in jail to cool his heals and soften up to do a few miracles for their gain. Oh well. Regards DL

It is quite different to be open to ideas but you cannot compare that notion to faith. No scientist would die for an un-proven theory yet those of faith say they would for their un-proven theories.

Correct again. I do not think it a good idea to have a mind that believes so openly to unproven possibilities. Laws of nature are laws after all. "to establish the historicity of Sophocles or Plato" Those named wrote their thoughts. There is no documentation other than hear say and bible say, all hear say, that Jesus ever said anything. Even then, most of what he said is un-workable rhetoric. Like his divorce laws. Let no one divorce, is silly and immoral. Regards DL

Correct. I did not claim it could. Regards DL

Can you prove the un-provable? No. Neither can I. Regards DL

If the theist position were logical, we would not be discussing them. Regards DL

This speaks quite well to your logical fallacy. Come back, if you understand it, wit a reasonable set of questions and not some wish list you want from science when your wish list for God does not hold the same conditions you place on us. That is not fair play at all. Regards DL

Yes. We are from a single event the big bang, but not from a single entity. If such an entity wanted us to know of it, I am sure we would be more than aware of it's reality. In the meantime, we have fantasy. Regards DL

If the West is to help the East; the East should pay the Gas. There are two basic ways, and two basic ways only, to conquer a nation; force of arms or by economic control. At present, the West is spending much of it’s wealth in helping the Eastern revolutionary forces stabilize, organize and rid itself of the old political ways. At the same time, the East is attacking the West on the economic front, and preventing the West from helping it’s own Eastern political transition in a swifter fashion. IOW, the East is shooting itself in the foot by shooting the West in the foot. The East should recognize that it is hard for the West to put the hammer down when it is too expensive to put the hammer down. China is not helping at this point in time on the economic conquest of the western world with their dollar either. They should think globally a bit more. So should we all. The East would be well advised to reduce the price of fuel to the West and thus fuel it’s own political aspirations. I personally wish to contribute more to democracy, secularism and the individual freedoms that the East aspires to. If democracy is not about ending tyranny then it is worthless. One of the founding notions of democracy, it seems to me; is that reciprocity is fair play. In the case of fuel, it does not serve the East nor the West and the freedoms that both seek in terms of personal autonomy by having a high gas price. Regards DL

I realize that but feel the same as when people talk to me about how everyone thought Jesus was divine. I then point out that it took 200 odd years to finally put him as part of the trinity. That is like us trying to put divinity on Columbus based on eye witness reports. The only reason most likely for Jesus joining the trinity was political. Regards DL

Are Evangelicals and conservative Christians the Anti-Christ? In the tribal conditions of the ancient world, it is not surprising that Christians would be hated. Revelation shows the destruction of all except God’s chosen. Evangelicals and literalists, pray for this genocidal destruction to happen in their lifetimes. That is a lot of hate coming from those who profess to love all of mankind. Some would say that these so called Christians, are not of good heart and do not follow their own religion, bible or a loving Christ. Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Some would in fact say that these Christians are traitors to the society they hate. In the old tribal days, and even today, those who do not believe as Evangelicals, literalists and conservative Christians do, would see these as traitors and haters and would get their backs up, as most humans being would automatically do, and hate these Christian traitors right back. It is no wonder then, and some ancients would say quite fittingly, that these traitors should be fed to the lions. Hate being returned for the hate that these Christians show to society. It is not too surprising then to see why Christians were persecuted in the old days. They deserved it as far as the other tribes were concerned as they were showing hate for all others in wishing and praying for their death in this life as well as everlasting torture for eternity in the next. What a game for your God to play if such were true! Create a place for eternal bliss as well as a place for eternal suffering. Then create beings whom he loves dearly and watches over. And in the end, decide which to consider "trash" and "throw away" into the place for eternal suffering and which to cling to and love in the place for eternal bliss. Even man, with all his faults, is greater and more responsible. Evangelicals and followers of Jesus should thank God that they live in a world that has lost some of it’s tribal ways, not themselves of course, and society allow these who hate them so much, to remain untouched in today’s environment. These Evangelicals and literalist believers think themselves as followers of Christ yet Christ was of love while they are of hate. They are anti their own bible as shown with Rom 12;21. If the bible is the word of God as they believe it is, then they are anti-bible and therefore, biblically speaking, Anti-Christ. They definitely are not cut from the same cloth that Jesus was. Are these Evangelicals and literalist believers the Anti-Christ of scripture? Is the term traitors to humanity a fitting label for these misguided Christians? Regards DL

No. Here is why. It is said that the omni everything God already knows and has always known everything. His famous plan remember. That being the case, the souls would be a redundant and un-necessary appendage. Just a copy of what is already known. Seems that God back up his plan the way we back up our computer files. I guess he does not trust his memory. Regards DL

LOL. Yet anthropologists have done just that. Roughly. Ok though. In some ways I agree that at no point in the past did we become human. We must therefore conclude, FYPOV, that we are not human today. Sure but they still had to do the testing. Gradually. To you perhaps. Then again I made your idea above of humans not becoming humans look as silly as it was. Then how would we know our theories are sound if we had not tested them. I E. Einstein's theory on time. Remember his two plane and clocks experiment. Oh my. Instincts include a dietary list. How droll. True. For the moment. That is why I do not push it. I agree and that is why I just offer it only as an anecdotal rendering. I myself would take it with a grain of salt if I had not lived it. Because it is true. As mentioned, it is a cosmic consciousness. A consolidation of many minds or consciousness'. I would not know how to measure it. The usual definition says that it spans the whole universe but from inside it, I could not perceive any shape or size. Thinking it spans the universe, to me , is rather stupid. Knowing of the speed of light, communication within it would likely be impossible if that were so. As pointed out, it is a different concept of God in the sense that it has no dogma to sell, considers man as the supreme being in the universe and is quite natural where most other Gods are supernatural. We have yet to debate that bit so thanks for your assumption. Let you head shrink to normal size friend. My agenda? What is my agenda. You speak of what you do not know. Who is claiming apotheosis to these and what theology or dogma is being pushed? Again, you are comparing apples and oranges. These are all supernatural entities. Regards DL

I was referring to when our species actually became our species. If you cannot think of how a new troop of humans, moving into a new environment and finding out by trial and error what to eat and what not to eat then we will not get on the same page. Trial and error trained and taught us. The scientific method. I read a history at one time for the doctor who invented open heart surgery. It said that he knew that he was going to kill a few before perfecting the technique. Our ancestors did not plan to kill any of the troop but may have been bright enough to know they would. Without trial and error, a key component of science, we would only have unproven theories. If I am wrong about the ancients then you telll me how they learned what mushroom not to eat. I do not. I do not care that much and do not push hard on what I cannot prove. If a mind is closed, it is closed BTW, It is not a deity. B S. I am pushing nature and natural. Not supernatural. Regards DL

Thanks for this. Let me try. Regards DL