waitforufo

The wealth gap is the natural intended product of capitalism. It is actually the essential component. It creates the drive to create products or services at low prices so more people can afford to purchase them. Productivity is maximized. Wages are determined the number of qualified workers in the labor pool and their labor output on the job. Productive people get paid more because they do more than the average person. Fairness isn't even a consideration, nor should it be. Its an unplanned wild free for all controlled by what' called the invisible hand No planning is even possible. The system is designed to create winners and losers. So do we need regulation to protect people from capitalism? Absolutely. A capitalist will do anything he can legally get away with. Environmental, worker safety rules, etc., Im for them. I just don't see how the government can write a regulation requiring a private or publicly held company to be more fair with their wage distribution to close the wealth gap. It can' be done. I often wonder how people like yourself imagine the lives of the evil rich. Lets just pick one. How about Jeff Bezos. The richest man in the world with an estimated wealth of over 100 billion. Do you think he lives in some ever expanding mansion, with wings being added so he has a place his to store his ill gotten gains in shrink wrapped pallets of cash. Do you imagine Jeff walking through all that cash laughing and saying "screw the little people? I see Jeff as kick ass capitalist. He is providing awesome goods and services to the economy. His wealth is tied up in the company he created. He employs lots of people, many of them at high wages. My nephews work for him in Seattle. The wages they are making at about 30 I didn't make until I was 45. I say good for Jeff and I wish the country had many more billionaire like him. Why does it need to be good for all? what"s wrong with better for most? I have been an engineer for 35 years. I have designed an managed the creation of many fielded products.. Every circuit was reviewed to insure that every circuit was the cheapest just good enough design that would get the job done. Yes, MTBF was a design requirement. We did that to have the lowest price in the market, with the intention of killing our competition. In engineering a common phrase is "You can get 90% of what you want for 10% of the budget." So why not help the 90 % and expect the the last 10% will receive secondary from the prosperity created by the policy that helped the 90%? I think this is my favorite response to one of my posts you ever made. You made my day. Your first line you claim to be a reasonable person. Then you contradict your self by saying conservatives are f*cking idiots so no compromise is possible. What an awesome reply. The funny thing about all of this is that liberals have lost the american public and they don't even see it. people's paychecks just got bigger because of the tax cut. People view all these investigation as nothing but vendetta by the losers. A year of investigation and they got nothing on Trump. Since Trump got elected two of my kids got better jobs and my son in law got promoted with a good raise. Everyone with a 401k is now more optimistic about retirement. By the way, so are their kids who feel their parents will have the dignity of financial security an they will not have the financial burden of parental support But you think Trump is a Nazi and are foolish enough to state it publicly (item 11 in the OP). You better hope Muller finds something substantial against Trump because if he doesn't expect a big backlash against those opposed to Trump,

iNow, why is it that you can't understand that our goals can be the same, though our solutions are different? I agree with almost all of what you have with the exception of parts of 9, 10 but ifacceptable risks aren't allowed you are just keeps people in poverty, and 11 is simpl delusional. Perhaps you should consider economic prosperity as a solution?

You must skip a lot of news stories in your local news papers and major broadcast media Even my local paper, The Spokesman Review, covers them. The FBI criminally leaking documents, FBI agents loosing 5 months of texts between FBI agents who were found to be discussing a secret society that would be working against the president Then we have McCabe abusing FISA for improper serveillance of US citizens. I could go on and on but why? You stopped reading a long time ago. But at least your media heros like Michael Wolff painting your side in honor by claiming that Nikki Hayley and Donald Trump are having an affair during the era of #me too. he best part of that was Hillary Clinton throwing weight behind the claim. Is there no limit to your depravity. Have you no decency. Nothing but low lives.

If you would just drop your envy of the "rich" your life would be a lot happier. Try practicing saying "well good for them" any time you hear that good fortune befalls anyone. Do this regardless of their economic situation, their political persuasion, race, creed, orientation, etc. You will find it very freeing to be free of envy. Of course the tax bill has things in it that you like. Why would you think otherwise. Donald Trump along with congress is trying to make the country a better place. I'm sure it pains you to acknowledge that for Trump, but it's nice to see a start.

Why does it never occur to any of you that the branch of government under attack is the executive branch? Yeah, I get that you don't like Trump but he is the President of the United States. He has been under investigation for over a year and nothing on Trump has been uncovered. Nothing of importance has even been leaked. The only Russia collusion that has been found has been between the Democratic party, the Hillary campaign, or the Clinton charity. Having the press as your political ally has burred those stories, but maybe this FISA report will change that. If it is just BS it will only make Trump look bad, so what are you worried about? Look, any thinking person knows what this is all about. The goal of all these investigations is simply to stymie Trumps agenda. As far as I can tell, the main problem Trump's opponents have with his agenda is that Trump believes that capitalism can cure our woes and that government action is always designed to hobble capitalism. Also Trump believes that entrepreneurs deserve the wealth they create and should be respected by our citizens, not demonize as the 1%. The core problem for Trump's opponents is that his policies might work. That would prove the fallacy of their approach to improving the lives of people. To prevent that from happening Trump's opponents are working hard to make sure his presidency has no accomplishments regardless if they would benefit the country or the world. The sad part about that is Trump's opponents could get a lot of what they want, things that would improve the country, if they would simply bargain with Trump. They are so committed to the governmental path, based on less is better for everyone as long as government is in control to make sure their is 'fairness' that any demonstration that capitalism does more, helps more, and improves prosperity just can't be allowed to happen. Your own topic title is "DOJ and FBI under attack." So what is with the rant on racism? I find this to be a common trend on this forum. You are essentially saying that if you don't agree with me on the topic of this subject, then I'm a racist. Since this is a family forum, I'll reserve my response.

Don't think I don't have empathy for these DACA children. The law however must be followed.

I have been blaming the DACA parents from the start. What they did to there children was child abuse. Those parents should be prosecuted for it. I''m generally happy with it as long as it includes other proposed immigrqation changes. Nuclear chain migration only, no lottery, all immigrants vetted, v-verify for employment. Things like that.

Well, there is a new executive, and he has a pen and phone too, and he is writing new executive actions now. So with the stroke of a pen he can remove any reason to adjudicate pending future mitigation or action on illegal immigration. Also Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals doesn't mean that they are not her illegally, It just means we are deciding not to prosecute them at the moment. The criminal cases against them are prima facie. There is no doubt of their guilt.

Well currently the law is on my side. If one president can defer law, another can decide to enforce it. That's the problem with executive action. Funny you didn't have any problems with Obama's executive actions. I have stated over and over again that the law can be changed. Even the constitution can be changed. Those of your political persuasion just don't wan't to play by the rules or put in the work. Just because you didn't know it was legal to refuse, doesn't mean it wasn't. Also this is a topic about immigration. Please stay on topic.

Your location says you are from Texas. I assume you are a US citizen. If you don't like the second amendment work to have it changed. Yeah, I'll bitch about it if you succeed but I'll follow the law. I don't pick and choose. Working out as intended as far as I'm concerned. Funny you list a bunch of infractions and minor misdemeanors to call me a hypocrite. Illegal immigration is felony. Maybe you don't know the difference. http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/what-distinguishes-a-misdemeanor-from-a-felony.html With regard to your questions, you are defending the commission of felonies and the abuse of children. Perhaps we should get past that first. Negotiations mean give and take. Trump wants to find a path forward with DACA, but he wants things in return so we don't end up in this situation again. His list of requests is easy to find on the web. Which of his request do you agree with? As long as the way Trump found not to pay taxes were legal I have no problem with it. I and everyone else does the same thing. I celebrated when the tax laws were changed. The more of my money I earn that the government lets me keep the happier I am. Who isn't. I like immigrants. I think we should have legal liberal immigration laws that admits plenty of hispanics. I belong to both motorcycle and car clubs that have significant Hispanic membership. We go on rides, work on each other's machines. We even belong to the same church. But according to you, because I want immigrants to enter the US legally in your book I'm a racist. Immigration is not a race issue. That is a straw man argument.

Perhaps you haven't noticed but the US has immigration laws. It appears that you don't like these laws and don't believe that these laws should be enforced. It seems that you believe that any person who steps foot in the US should automatically be a citizen with all rights afforded a US citizen included voting. I'm sure you feel that if a person bought a candy bar at convenience store he paid taxes so all that person need is to keep the receipt so now that person is a citizen Perhaps you should read the 14th amendment. Why bother however? You will just ignore the parts you don't like. Maybe you should read Article VI of the constitution. Yeah, I know you feel like you should be able to pick and choose only the things you like from that document as well. The predicament the Dreamers are in are the direct result of the criminal actions of their parents. Explain to me how that is not true. That is child abuse. It's no different than taking you child with you to rob a bank. Picking and choosing which law to enforce will lead to nothing but trouble. How would you like it If I was the one doing the picking and choosing? I on the other hand am a law abiding citizen who follows all the laws. Even the ones I don't like. Why not you? This is just BS. Again we have laws. Those laws need to be enforced. Change them if you can but until you do they should be enforced. Sleazeballs who break the law and hide out in Mexico should be returned to the US should be returned to the US for prosecution and punishment. Their victims deserve justice. Why would any good person want anything less? First, the Dreamers are not Americans. Second the US is not the welfare provider for the world. This humanitarian crisis was caused by States not enforcing Federal law and the parents of Dreamers who brought their children here illegally. What part of that don't you get? So following our laws is stupid? Not a life path I would recommend. So now on to recent news. Trump says he wants to admit Dreamers and provide a path for them to become citizens. Trump just was substantial immigration reform so we don't get into this situation again. In politics there is bargaining. What are you willing to give Trump to get what you want on DACA?

The price we are paying is that we are spending resources on foreigners that could be spent on improving the lives of impoverished US citizens, improving education for our children, etc. Also illegal immigrants put lowering price pressure on wages further grinding people into poverty. What obligation am I talking about? How about basic human altruism. These children are citizens of other countries that are in a bind because of the criminal actions of their parents. If roles were reversed and those children were US citizens in a bind, I would want my government to help. Not just financial help, but border enforcement help. Quite frankly I would be embarrassed that my country was exporting is social problems to other countries.

You two have an interesting sense of justice. Crimes where committed. Those crimes include child abuse by the parents of DACA children when they included them in their crimes. Somehow you don't have a problem with that. Next, are these children not citizens of other countries? Are the people from those countries less empathetic to the plight of their children citizens than other human beings would be? Those countries have no obligation at all? Why not a discussion on the shared human responsibility of all involved?

You just have to make this about race, but their is no need to. I often read on this forum that the US doesn't need to be the world's police force, but somehow we are supposed to be the world's welfare office. Why? Why should US citizens pay the price of the crimes committed by the parents of DACA children? Why doesn't Mexico accept the responsibility for it's child citizens? Well when you believe you can't run out of other people's money everything can be done in parallel. So when does utopia begin?

Agreed. Is it really that hard to do a gut check on opinions and attitudes? Sometimes you find out you are not such a fine person after all. That causes personal growth. Agreed here as well, but after that gut check one might conclude that there is nothing immoral with their position. We are talking about illegal immigration here. We live in a nation of laws. That is how our society functions. Picking and choosing which laws to enforce and which ones not to is a dangerous path. Why should we pick and choose? Last time I checked we have a representative government that can write new law any time it wants. It can even change the constitution. The only question is why can't congress make a deal? Who likes illegal immigration and wants it to continue? By the way I don't think that is just Democrats. I have no problem with legal immigration. In fact I think legal immigration should be increased particularly from Mexico. I know and am friends with lots of US citizens originally from Mexico or second generation. I believe they assimilate much faster than other cultures. My favorite part is that they like fast cars and motorcycles. I'll conclude with a little tale from my career. As part of my career, I worked as a wireless base station design engineer. When we released new product designs, the design engineers were temporarily reassigned as installation troubleshooting and deployed to the field to get the network deployed and functioning quickly. It turns out that a lot of major freeways, highways, and arterials run through very impoverished neighborhoods. These roads have high wireless traffic so they need more base station equipment installed along them In fact base stations are frequently installed on the roofs US housing project buildings. I have been in many of these buildings. They are not a fun place to visit. These are multi-story buildings. Never did I find a functioning elevator. All equipment had to be carried up the stairwells. Those stairwells were primarily used as latrines, drug shooting galleries and surprisingly as playgrounds for small children. Some were in diapers. Needle tipped syringes were everywhere. While I can't be certain, I believe every person I saw in those US government projects were US citizens. Why are we not focused on helping those US citizens? People our own nation ground into poverty. Charity begins at home in my book.

I'm not suggesting you abandon the craftsman approach. You will learn a lot of good skills and build some nice things. At the same time however, take on some less challenging projects. Something like a work bench made out of plywood and 2X4s for your garage. With regard to the brad nailer, you need to make Harbor Freight tools your best friend. Yeah, a lot of people bad mouth there tools. Yeah, occasionally you will buy something there that truly is junk. That said, I have a garage full of there tools that all work great. I think you can get a brad nailer / staple gun there for $9.99, and if you go to there on line add get a coupon for a free LED flashlight or some other thing. You want to build a dining room table and you have never built a work bench for your garage? You will be surprised what you will learn about table building making a work bench. Also, you will have a kick ass work bench to do other cool projects Sage advice. The hardest part to build for any formal table is going to be the top. If you have to glue up your own boards you will also likely have to plane the top as well. You may be able to find a supplier of glued and planed 4X8 foot sheets. Here is my local supplier. http://www.bargainhuntcabinets.com/?page_id=821

I do woodworking all the time. Most I would have to admit are utility items for my shop and garage. Storage shelves, work benches, lab benches. Occasionally furniture items like coat racks, reading lamps, or end tables. There was a time when I went the no modern fastener route, but I gave that up about a decade ago. You can complete an entire project on a Saturday with modern fasteners. Mostly I'm talking about dry wall screws caped with dowel plugs. Of all the tools I have purchased that have made me a productive wood worker I would say my air compressor, and brad nailer make just about every project possible. The trick with a brad nailer is that you can tack your project together while also gluing the parts. You will be surprised what you can build. When I was a younger man I went the craftsman route. I get the zen thing. When I gave up on that I got a lot more accomplished. Also I built a lot more things. That taught me a lot about how to build things that looked good and were sound structures.

This is a science forum. Science is supported by by data. I asked for data from history that supports you government ideal. i'm not surprised that you can't do it. In the mean time capitalism is supplying innovation, surplus and prosperity wherever it is implemented. Your ideal intentionally holds people back because some win more than others. What gives you, or the government the right to limit the success of others?

First, i get a little tired of the smarmy comments like your last one. Disagreement is not an indication of reading ability, comprehension or understanding a counter argument . I just think you are wrong. This blue marble has been spinning in the universe for some time now. Many governments have existed in the history of mankind. Maybe you could give me an example of even one that met or came even close to your ideal. Then perhaps compare that to the benefits provided by the history of capitalism. Also,perhaps you should be a bit more honest about the human wreckage caused through history by those promoting your path. As I said to iNow, I believe your goals are good and genuine, but there results of your path will always have poor results. Don't you think results matter?

Above is the nut of our differences. A capitalist economy is far too spontaneous for your comfort. There is no stopping the fact that some will succeed more than others in a capitalist economy. Your goal to ensure the system isn't rigged, that rules are written and enforced equally just sets the rigging bias on those you prefer. They also slow economic growth. Prosperity requires economic growth. Why slow it down?

iNow, I have no doubt that you would like to see a prosperous economy which provides a path for all Americans to reach comfortable prosperity. Your problem is that you can only see a government directed path. To achieve comfortable prosperity we need to grow the economy create jobs, and compete and win in world markets. Sure capitalism is a free for all with winners and losers, but if the majority win, aren't things better for the nation? Here is what I have seen from the government path to economic growth. Targeted tax cuts. The problem with targeted tax cuts is that no one is placed in the bulls-eye of these tax cuts. Also, so much government regulation that the cost to actually profit from investing is impossible. Heaven forbid that that one more molecule of C02 be produced or that a hole be drilled or dug in the ground. Somehow you are blind to the losers on the government path. My guess is that since you believe you have good intentions those losers don't count. Do you ever think of the people you are holding back? Do you care? I know I point this out to you frequently, but reread your quoted text above and do an envy check.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Fifths_Compromise It is relevant because the intention was to reduce the political power of slave states.

The anti-slavery faction felt they lost in the 3/5 compromise because they wanted slaves to count for zero. Any counting of slaves gave slave holding states more power in the federal government. If slaves had counted for zero, slavery could have easily been contained within the existing slave holding states and then later been abolished through legislation. The 3/5 compromise did in fact limit the power of slave holding states, just not enough.

Something about the link I provided that you don't understand?

Don't speak for me. The 3/5 of a white person rule was an anti-slavery position. To count slaves as full persons would have given the south more political power by giving them a higher population. Anti-slavery proponents didn't want slaves to be counted at all. There argument was that if a slave is simply property like a horse why should they be counted? Had they gotten there way, slavery would have likely ended sooner. The 3/5 of a white person rule as a compromise that anti-slavery proponents felt they lost. https://americanvision.org/3918/the-original-constitution-and-the-three-fifths-myth/