waitforufo

I have read several times in this forum that ACA is a Republican health care plan. That Republicans encouraged Democrats to push for ACA at the federal level and then backed out. In effect, tricking the Democratic Party into promoting ACA alone. Some go so far as to suggest that Republicans forced Democrats to vote for ACA. As I am sure you are aware, I believe all of the above is silly scapegoating. ACA is a Democratic party plan that all Democrats voted for and no Republicans voted for. Yes they may have had to bend ACA to meet the needs of their own Senate coalition but not to meet the needs or Republicans. It is obvious that Democrats did not need Republicans when building this legislation as evidenced by the final vote. If ACA works, they get all the credit. If it fails, they get all the blame. Simple accountability. So for those of you that think I’m wrong, I’m wondering if you can provide any proof. For example what Federal house or senate member sponsored or cosponsored a bill in congress that resembled ACA? What past Republican president promoted a law that resembled ACA? Can you provide a list of Republicans that voted no on ACA that said previously they would vote yes? Since we are speaking of ACA, I think it would be best if these examples came after Obama was elected President, but provide such evidence as you please. Now of course you can bring up state level law, but ACA is a federal level law, so if you do bring up such state level laws please explain how and when federal level Republicans said that such a law should be enacted at a federal level. For those of you that believe that Republicans forced Democrats to vote for ACA, please describe the force applied. Was it threats of violence against them or their family? Were these threats monetary in nature? Was there some form of blackmail applied?

Gee, we must be really talking past each other. Let me see If I can point out my confusion. You said.. Maybe we should start here. So are you a fan of the U of Chicago school of Political Science? Are you a fan of Leo Strauss? When you say "famous for the fantasy world" is that a complement? Do you respect him for studying Political Science at the U of Chicago, which is famous for the fantasy world "Chicago School" economists and the political views of Leo Strauss? Do you respect him for his views "directly form the wheelhouse of a U of Chicago Political Science PhD"? I'm obviously missing your point. So have you read the book? What did you think? Pardon me for not asking. Got it. Conservatives bad. Liberals good. Don't you get tired of this echo chamber? Have you ever tried to walk in a conservatives shoes? It's really quite easy. Preserve you assets and try not to be a burden on others. Pretty simple. Well simple unless you believe that government is the proper arbiter of what an acceptable level of assets is. When you say "mess of a plan" you mean the plan that all Democrats voted for? The plan that all Republicans voted against? Perhaps you should stop acting like liberals were tricked into voting for ACA. Its simply not true.

Maybe you are just an intense person. Try not to blow a gasket. You said "The "conservative" think tanks are intellectually dishonest, in general and by design". All I was saying is that most if not all think tanks are intellectually dishonest regardless of there political philosophy. I simply paraphrased one statement from the book regarding the veracity of think tanks. I did mention a word or two about the author. At the time I read the book he was only working as a motorcycle mechanic. I love your blanket condemnation of anyone studying politics and the U of Chicago. It says a lot about you. Perhaps you of all people should read this book. Its central point is that modern work is dehumanizing. That it is not good for humans to do mundane repetitive work or be cubical dwellers. That those in power in our corporations work to divide work up until each task provides no mental stimulation and requires no true skill. He believes things were better when our economy valued craftsmanship and people respected trade labor. Also that craftsmanship is very mentally stimulating producing a more intelligent populous. Yeah, I guess you are right, all those U of Chicago folks are jerks. By the way the author was also raised in a hippie commune in San Fransisco. Obviously your snap judgement must be correct. I'm not even sure what you are trying to get to with this. But let me remind you that no republicans voted for ACA. Maybe you have been busy lately but they also almost shut down the government over ACA implementation recently. They are working that hard to stop those evil right wing think tanks. I agree with all of this. Let the spectacle begin.

Airbrush, In many ways the legal system worked just fine for me. It killed a lot of my time and caused a lot of anxiety in my family but in the end I did not have to pay out which was all I was looking for. I'm sure the lawyers loved it because they both earned better than $50k each. The expert witnesses all got paid too. I just don't see this method as acceptable for making political decisions. You say "bad decision makers are held accountable." In your system who are the decision makers? The jury picked by the politicians? Perhaps you are saying the jury is picked from current members of congress. I can tell from the above. If so, how would this be different from now? Would a simple majority of jurors win, or would it have to unanimous? I could be wrong however. Your system would be quite a spectacle. Perhaps we could put it on TV to compete with Jerry Springer or Judge Judy.

Yeah, but who picks the jury and the judge? Who is held accountable when bad decisions are made? We are not too good at that accountability aspect today. For example, regardless about how you feel about ACA, the roll out has been terrible. Heads should roll. But they won't. Political considerations are more important than accountability. Your judge and jury proposal would just make accountability worse. By the way our current tort system is much as you describe. I few years back I was sued and counter sued based on an crash I was involved in. You would not believe the number of "experts" that contacted me unsolicited, claiming they could support my case. When asked how, almost all of them said in effect "I'll dream up something good, don't worry." Based on the trial, the other side took some of these people up. In fact one of their expert witnesses that appeared in court contacted me before contacting the other side. When I told him I wasn't interested he told me that if I didn't hire him the other side would. Threats are always such a nice way to drum up business. So in the end the judge and jury mostly heard the nonsense of these experts. I didn't see the justice in it then and don't see it now even though I prevailed. It was all sound and fury resulting in a pay day for lawyers. I got a little, the other side got nothing but there insurance paid for the trial so they were out nothing but time. I think we would have a revolution if our political decisions were made this way.

Not quite sure why you felt the need to turn this into a personal attack. My education is in engineering but I got my undergraduate degree from a liberal arts college. One of the vital lessons I learned there is that you should spend at least 25% of your studying time investigating points of view different from your own. That studying should include making a serious effort walking in the shoes of those you disagree with in an attempt to better understand their point of view. You should try that some time. It would get you out of the echo chamber you have put yourself in. The book I read, enjoyed, and recommended is primarily about the virtue of craftsmanship and tradesmanship. It’s a good read. The politics in the book is a minor aspect. The point I mentioned that is relevant to this topic is that increasing the number of talking heads, this time economists, would help little in resolving political differences. Political adversaries can always find “experts” to support their position. You seem to think this evil is only practiced on the right side of the political aisle. You are wrong. The fact that the book I reference points out an example on the conservative side is merely coincidental. If I did not think this was true I would not have referenced the book? Remember, I did read it, and enjoy it.

I enjoyed the book. So what is your point?

I’m sure economists will have a fun time picking apart the implementation of ACA in the future regardless of the program’s success or failure. I have to agree with iNow that it would be pointless bringing together economists to debate the issue prior to implementation. Politicians would just bring their favorite think tank economist to parrot what the politician believes. Why let politicians hide behind there so called experts. Why give a politician an out. I would rather have politicians stick their own neck out without a built in excuse for being wrong. As a side note there is a wonderful book called “Shop class as Soulcraft” (http://www.matthewbcrawford.com/ ) written by a guy with a PhD who ran a think tank and gave it all up to be a motorcycle mechanic. In that book he tells stories about how his paying customers would show up and say “this is what we believe, so now go find evidence that it is true while ignoring all evidence to the contrary.” The book is a lot more than that but I thought this might shed a bit of light on politicians and their experts. iNow if you haven’t read “Shop class as Soulcraft” I’m sure you would enjoy it.

Come on people. He is a troll, and a very good one.

Keep throwing out the prank bait popcorn. You are bound to catch a few more while keeping the others on the line. There are some here that still belive you are serious. Please ride your prank to the bitter end. I'm enjoying it. I couldn't have created a better example of what is wrong with the US than the character you are creating. I believe I have said that more than once in this topic. That is what let me on to your prank. Things that are too good to be true usually are. You just pushed it a bit too far with the cunning linguist bit. You disguised it well. It took me a few days to catch on, but now the cat is out of the bag.

People, you are being pranked by Popcorn. Go read his posts in this topic again. His "I have a bachelors degree in philosophy with an emphasis in linguistics" is simply Popcorn seeing how far he can take his prank. Obviously quite far. He had me going for quite a while. My post was simply letting Popcorn know I'm on to him. I thought the rest of you would get that too. According to Popcorn, he is unemployed at least in his field, he thinks he should be paid $50k because he breathes, he needs others to watch TV for him, and he has never attempted to publish his work, but knows others would love to read it. His opener would redistribute wealth by a point system as described by him below. So he wants the IRS monitoring our thoughts and keeping score? He really thinks the poor are going to get high scores on his "sequence of evidential thought" meter? My guess is the poor spend there time thinking about how they are going to pay their bills and survive. Perhaps he will grant the poor earned evidential thought credits. Oh, I forgot, he solved poverty by granting everone $50k per year for breathing. Popcorn is playing a prank. One more step and Tridimity will be in on the prank. This topic really should be moved to the Lounge. You got us Popcorn. Good on you. It was a great joke while it lasted.

So I have been thinking about this topic and the post below in particular. In particular I have been thinking about Popcorn's chosen course of study. Why would somebody think such a course of study would ever produce a middle class salary. What job title would one expect with such a degree in common vernacular? Yes, the second part of that title would be linguist. Then I thought, well someone would have to be pretty cunning to pair philosophy with linguistics. That is when I knew I had been had. Think about Popcorn's posts on this topic. That doesn't happen by accident. So I think it's time for a little carrier advice for Popcorn, Popcorn, I hate to break it to you but I think you need to change your carrier ambitions. I personally know the pleasures of providing cunning linguist services so I know you must have passion for your carrier goals. But let's face it, most guys provide this service for free. Just participating is payment enough for me. On top of that, if we can believe the internets, and on this one I hope we can, lots of gals like providing this service for free as well. At least I like to believe this is true, and I don't think that makes me a bad person. You will never make any money in a field where so many people provide your service for free. You will have to change to something else. Being from the great state of Washington my first thought was oyster diving since this trade should have similarities to your chosen course of study. But let's face it, all those openings are filled. Maybe others can provide other alternatives. Moderator, Since Popcorn is the author of the opener for this thread, maybe topic should be moved through the Lounge.

And the 14th amendment says we can't default on our debt. So what. That is a living document. It means whatever the grand master of the circus want's it to mean. Where have you been?

Well bambi lives another day to roam the NW woods. I'll try again tonight. There is always late buck. I love the shift to third person. The circus is put there for our entertainment. Same as in the days of Rome. I'm paying for it so why shouldn't I pay attention? The circus is there for our entertainment and I was forced to buy a ticket. Also, when the circus is in town you need to watch out of the pick pockets. Let's try that third person stuff. Does the poster really think his opinions matter? Does the poster really think those running the big top, the political class, are paying attention to the poster? They vote themselves pay raises and exempt themselves and their staff from the laws the rest of us have to follow, but the poster still believes they care? The poster should appreciate that very few people pay attention at all to politics. Those that avoid the subject avoid those that don't. That puts those champions of of the big top in an echo chamber, believing that everyone cares as much about the circus as they do. Well, they don't, in large part because they know that the "entitled" will never include them. They are just like poor old Boxer in animal farm. My thanks to the poster for his reference to Marx. I won't take the bait. I prefer the Marx with the painted on mustache and the big cigar. Now that's entertainment. Popcorn, Thank you for starting this thread and sticking with it. You continue to be a shining example of the kind of person this country is now producing. If I were you I would sit tight and hold out for your gratis $50k. In the mean time I would recommend that you wait around for others to do your leg work while participating in your own thread. Keep us posted on how that works out.

Of course you don't think about me having sex, but you walked right into my feedback comment. All you know about my human compassion is that I don't think the government should be the vehicle for human compassion. I give 10% of my gross to charity, and very few of those charities are religious. The ones that are religious directly serve the homeless. You did not know this so no worries. Neither Jesus or Humanist. Adam Smith is closer to the mark. I don't have a lot of time this morning because I'm off to kill bambi so let me give you my political philosophy in a few sentences. You often hear about classes in society. Things like the middle class. I even use that term myself because it is convenient and well understood. The primary classes I see are the political class and the non political class. I'm in the latter. Like I said in a previous post I barely even vote and then only in local elections. The political class is simply providing us with bread and circuses. The bread of course is governmental entitlement. Even the term entitlement pisses me off. How dare someone say they are entitled to my money when they are not providing me a good or service. The circuses are things like the recent government shutdown. What BS. Now they are going to have to postpone the individual mandate of ACA because the we need even more entertainment. We could have avoided the shutdown with this postponement but the shutdown was in circus circle number 1 and ACA is in circus circle number 2. The big circle has all the 24 hour news shows doing acrobatics. All just a distraction so the political class can push us around like pawns while spending our money. Ignore the political class. Leave the circus. Make our own. Be charitable outside of government. Now off to kill bambi.

It would be great fun to comment on all of this, but I have been scolded. Another time perhaps. Life is a great adventure. Don't let yourself die. You are the only one that can stop it.

I know Ike loved the bomb. He saw it as a way to keep the military industrial complex in check. To make that work however he though we would need to use the bomb now and then and he didn't have a big problem with that. Also, people like to forget about the second warning of his farewell speech. He warned "…that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite." Makes me wonder what he would think about global warming or whatever they are calling it these days. Other than that I know that when people suggested he run for president they had to ask him what party he belonged to. Back then there wasn't much difference. For example Kennedy and Nixon were carbon copies of each other. Kennedy just had the mob connections he needed to win Illinois. The parties would likely be much the same today if the Vietnam peace nics hadn't take over the Democratic party. Better stop this post now before I get scolded again. You think about me having sex? I'm sure you can find better web sites for thinking about sex.

We have rules that prohibit making slurs?

Well please keep it up. Not only is if funny but it just causes Americans to hold their guns tighter. We take this input from the French and Germans better than from the British. Someone should tell Piers Morgan that.

I know I won't be able to convince you of this, but the rich don't matter. It's the middle class that matters. Ignoring the rich will only make you happy. Go back and read Popcorn again. It's tough to reap what liberalism has sown. I said it was partially a joke. Let's for example compare Nixon's Watergate scandal to Jim Crow and segregation. One was an offense of a single republican. The other was an offense by may Democrats in several states against the poorest of poor.. Yet all republicans are painted with the brush of Watergate. Why shouldn't all Democrats be painted with the brush of Jim Crow and segregation. Both occurred during my lifetime. The Civil War resulted in the death of 2% of the US population. This little political faux pas was perpetrated again by many Democrats in several states. It's a very high bar of badness to beat. I think we should never forget who was responsible for the death of 2% of the American population. Why do you want to forget who was responsible. You know I can understand why people, particularly in black neighborhoods, don't want there schools named after former slave owners like Washington and Jefferson. The Civil war was 150 years ago. I don't think it is too soon to speak the truth. I just think it is funny when Brits comment about gun issues in the US. Why don't you tell us we need tea taxes too. I went to Engineering school in the early 80's. Do you really think you can convince me that Ronald Reagan was a bad president? I don't vote except in city, county or congressional district elections. Why bother other than that. Here in Washington State, Pierce and King county call the shots. When they lose, the state just keep counting the ballots until they find enough new votes for Pierce and King to win. My city mayor however will do anything to keep my vote. He takes my calls personally. One more comment for Overtone about Nixon. Are you familiar with the Philadelphia Order? Look it up. Nixon got a little fed up with the racism of labor unions and put a stop to it in Philadelphia. I wonder what political party those labor union members belonged to? Again, this is just fantasy. I have been hearing this BS since the 70's. It any moment the totalitarians are going to take over! Oh No! This week the fascists, next week the communists. Keep your eyes on the monkeys. They are right behind us on the evolutionary ladder.

Wow. A Brit that that thinks Americans shouldn't have guns. What a surprise.

Why would anyone be productive if they could receive 50 grand regardless? Just curious if you know what typical people with your degree make. If you do, when did you find this out? I don't know much about your degree field, but it doesn't sound like one that will ever produce high income. If you are struggling financially why choose a field that employs few and at low pay? You have a degree in philosophy and yet you can claim that a person making 100 grand a year is stealing half of that from you? Based on what moral justification? The reason I asked about your age is that young people always make less than older more experienced people. Lets say you get a job in linguistics fresh out of college. You really think you should start at $50k. You really think that someone working at the same company for 20 years should also be making $50k. If that is how you feel, you are living in a dream. Wake up.

I'm rooting for you Popcorn. I'm just not going to give you any of my money. A degree and a clean record is a good start. Build from there. Get knocked on your ass? Well get back up. I have been knocked on my back side several times and always got back up. Now I'm doing fine. I'm just trying to stop the government from stealing redistributing the fruit of my labor. I know there are those that believe that any of the money I make and the government lets me keep is just a government subsidy, but those people are wrong. Do you really want to live off the sweat of my brow? What gives a person that right? I'm just curious. What is your degree and how old are you? A ballpark figure on your age would be fine.

So maybe we can find some common ground in this. I told Popcorn "With regard to wealth redistribution please leave me out. I earned my money and it belongs to me." So if I'm one of those extremely rare members of the middle class who have somehow, against all odds, acquired a modicum of wealth through their own effort, then I and my wealth should be protected. I should be exempt from these government engineered wealth redistribution schemes. I should be considered the ideal goal of the US economic system. In order to preserve this rare example of what our economic system should be producing, I should be exempt from redistribution. Sure, I should continue to pay routine taxes like gas taxes, car tabs, property taxes, and such. Can't anger the fake Cherokee princess. (Now don't go hating now, I'm a registered member of the Cherokee Nation, I even have my card from the Department of the Interior.) I think we can all agree that whatever the government does, it should not damage the financial and economic ecosystem that produced such a fine specimen of the American middle class. Distributing my hard earned wealth would simply be immoral. It would only produce fewer middle class people. Keep tilting your jousting stick at the 1%. Let's see how far you get with that. Just don't redistribute what is mine and those like me. Fair enough? I don't have a pension. I need my wealth for retirement. Also, I NEED and new boat. The boat sellers NEED me to buy that boat. Also in NEED are the boat makers and those that supply them with materials. Don't forget the NEED of outboard motor makers. They NEED me to by a new boat as much as the fishing tackle manufacturers do. Take my money and you screw all those NEEDy people. I'm sure some of them are in that rare middle class group with me. They must be protected as well. And what about those trying to reach the dizzying heights that I have reached. Don't want to discourage them. Like I sad, back off with trying to redistribute my wealth. The above is just slander. Nixon broke the solid racist Democrat South by encouraging Democrats, tired of their parties racism, to join Lincolns party of freedom. Democrats never complained about the congressional majorities that their racist party members gave them now did they? Instead they catered to their racism. Bad mouthing those Democrats with the courage to force change in this countries racist history by joining the Republican party is simply disgraceful.

If my children inherit the wealth I created in my lifetime they will be "getting ownership" of my wealth. This is what the Kennedy's do. This is what Steve Jobs heirs have done. Earning is not the only way to achieve wealth. You can also create wealth out of nothing. That is what Steve Jobs did. Inventors to it every day. So do bakers. Where before there were ingredients, now there is a pie. In the end however that wealth is owned by someone. I own mine and you own yours. If you want a slice of pie, bake your own. I agree. Crime is bad. By hey, Phil Gramm was coming up with a government solution to his wealth problem. I've stated many times that I'm not in favor government intervention is such issues. And I thought they made all their money running liquor during prohibition. Such a fine example for those in the Democratic Party. Why does the Democratic Party worship at the altar of the Kennedys anyway? And the Rockefellers too. Well it's a dog eat dog world out there. Bill did give us a common software platform that allows us to share documents and ideas easily. I say good for him. I hope he enjoys his wealth. See, I feel better already. Perhaps you should check out this web site. Wealth is traded there every day. I have never had any trouble purchasing wealth or assets. http://finance.yahoo.com/ Be careful. Obama has the NSA listening to you. My favorite part of that rant is "support by law the authoritarian privileges of ownership." Please elaborate. I don't think I'm getting my share of those privileges and I own the wealth I have earned. I must be getting screwed somehow. Somehow in your lineage you forgot the Democratic party. You know the people whose actions lead to the death 2% of the US population in an effort to keep slaves. The party of sedition, jim crow, segregation, and the KKK. Please don't forget them in the future.