immortal

Why does he think that Wigner, Roger Penrose, Von-neumann and Henry Stapp are New age hucksters? What if they were all right and he is wrong?

Empirical reality is a dream, working scientists have underestimated religion and have underestimated the Lord. Even in dreams entities appear to exist independent of us but in reality we know that it is only a state of mind and similarly even in this empirical reality the equipment appears to exist independent of us but in reality this empirical reality is only a state of mind. The equipment exists but only in your mind and hence it is not objectively real. "9—10 In dreams, what is imagined within the mind is illusory and what is cognized outside by the mind, real; but truly, both are known to be unreal. Similarly, in the waking state, what is imagined within by the mind is illusory and what is cognized outside by the mind, real; but both should be held, on rational grounds, to be unreal" - This is the decision of Vedanta, the eastern philosophical system or school of thought. Science is not all there is. You have misunderstood many things, mysticism is not entirely subjective, it can be empirically studied. For example, St Teresa of Avila shattered the whole room so much that her nuns came running to see what happened to her, you might not know the power of the numinous and might go on and fool yourself but I am not and also when they opened her cremation again her body gave out an aromatic fragrance which is a common phenomena among the mystics of all cultures. Scientists have ignored such phenomena and have decided not to investigate the supernatural but I doesn't want to show such biases and ignore such phenomena by saying such silly things as they were all on LSD.

Of course Bob at the other side of the universe need to receive information classically in order to make the necessary unitary transformations. What I was trying to say is that entanglement is still instantaneous, the fact that you cannot send meaningful information through entanglement doesn't change the fact that the two entangled objects are correlated instantaneously. You take one entangled subsystem at one side of the universe and an another entangled subsystem at the other side of the universe and according to quantum mechanics no matter how far apart they are they need to be treated as a single quantum system which defines the states of the subsystems. This says something profound about the nature of reality, it says that information is a far more fundamental concept of the universe. In philosophical circles an object's properties is what defines an object and if the properties of the two subsystems are undefined prior to measurements it doesn't make any sense to assume that the subsystems as an independent reality. Bell state measurements. "If I get the impression that nature itself makes the decisive choice what possibility to realise, where quantum theory says that more than one outcome is possible, then I am ascribing personality to nature, that is to something that is always everywhere. Omnipresent eternal personality, which is omnipotent in taking the decisions that are left undetermined by physical law, is exactly what in the language of religion is called God." - F. J. Belinfante Measurements and Time Reversal in Objective Quantum Theory,1975. Science has found God and I don't need to redefine anything, the evidence is out there for everyone to see, science and religion are converging. Entanglement is a fact and we know it happens outside of space-time irrespective of what X or Y says. As per your request I have shown you that reality isn't real. Don't tell me that I shouldn't tell you that the real world isn't here. Bernard is right. "In an article in the Guardian titled Quantum weirdness: What we call 'reality' is just a state of mind d'Espagnat wrote that: "What quantum mechanics tells us, I believe, is surprising to say the least. It tells us that the basic components of objects – the particles, electrons, quarks etc. – cannot be thought of as "self-existent". He further writes that his research in quantum physics has led him to conclude that an "ultimate reality" exists, which is not embedded in space or time."

Do you know that in principle I can strip off all the properties of that equipment and transfer it to the other side of the universe instantaneously and obtain a duplicate, there by destroying the original equipment? What does it say about the nature of reality? It says reality is abstract. Just because something isn't objectively real doesn't mean it is not virtually real either. The properties of the system exist virtually and we can do experiments with it and make rational conclusions from the results obtained from it. Physical world as virtual reality The emergence of physical world from information processing

I didn't said the equipment is real, you have misunderstood, when I said there is nothing special about the equipment I meant that even the equipment can be treated as a quantum system and that's when the measurement problem actually arises. And you go on "Only those who are divinized means only those who are united with the One can know or knows what the will of the divine is, not some Islamic fundamentalists or Heinrich Himmler or not even those who blindly believe in their scriptures, religion has got nothing to do with belief, religion is about doing not believing, even they are not religious, this concept of henosis exists in all the religions of the world and hence my definition is universal whether you or any mods accept or reject it will not change the facts." You have emphasized the later part but not the part which I said before which I have corrected for you, I have no freedom to define religion, traditions places constraints as to what constitutes religion and I just went by them, I didn't made up this definition on my own which is what you're implying which is very wrong. This passage is very much relevant to your question and it answers it perfectly. 12. "As a lump of salt dropped into water becomes dissolved in water and cannot be taken out again, but wherever we taste the water it tastes salt, even so, my dear, this great, endless, infinite Reality is Pure Intelligence alone. This self comes out as a separate entity from these elements and with their destruction this separate existence also is destroyed. After attaining oneness it has no more consciousness. This is what I say, my dear." So said Yajnavalkya. 13. Then Maitreyi said: "Just here you have bewildered me, venerable Sir, by saying that after attaining oneness the self has no more consciousness." Yajnavalkya replied: "Certainly I am not saying anything bewildering, my dear. This Reality is enough for knowledge, O Maitreyi." 14. "For when there is duality, as it were, then one smells another, one sees another, one hears another, one speaks to another, one thinks of another, one knows another. But when everything has become the Self, then what should one smell and through what, what should one see and through what, what should one hear and through what, what should one speak and through what, what should one think and through what, what should one know and through what? Through what should One know That owing to which all this is known—through what, my dear, should one know the Knower?" - Brihadaranyaka Upanishad In the west this is called as realized eschatology. "Unlike most religious movements, the Valentinian eschatological myth does not present events that are postponed until the afterlife or the end of the world. They believed that those who had gnosis experienced the restoration to Fullness (pleroma) here and now through visionary experiences and ritual. The orthodox teacher Irenaeus reports with some bewilderment that Valentinians claimed that they were "in the heights beyond every power" (Irenaeus Against Heresies 1:13:6) and that they were "neither in heaven nor on earth but have passed within the Fullness and have already embraced their angel" (Irenaeus Against Heresies 3:15:2). They described the experience of gnosis itself in terms of the eschatological myth."

If you know HTML and CSS which are mainly used for the front end GUI then you should start learning about the coding at the back end, so learning SQL will be a good idea and also you can learn about Javascript and xml. Here's a good website where you can begin with: W3Schools.com But I would advice you to start learning either C or C++.

Are you sure about that? Yes, when you apply negative theology based on the available empirical evidence and ask what god cannot be you'll get that god cannot be anything else other than a hypercosmic being and only a few religions who taught the existence of a hypercosmic God survive and other religions are falsified. And you can go and study those traditions which I have mentioned there and they all teach that one need to become the 'Father(God)' to be religious and it is the heart of their doctrine. I want two things: 1. I want working scientists to use weak objective statements while publishing their results or when they write text books. 2. a) I want those who use Pagan ideas to not discredit the religious elements associated with such ideas, if you're a platonist then accept Plato's Gods or else don't interfere with such ideas, its better to keep yourself away rather than distorting and misinterpreting pagan doctrines and beliefs. b) When I say your understanding of pagan doctrines are wrong they say what authority do you have to speak on such matters and when I cite that the scholars who study those doctrines are themselves saying that your understanding are wrong you guys say you're making an appeal to authority since there seems to be no end for your arrogance and ignorance such lack of understanding is inexcusable in a world where three out of four people can read and write. "Question: You talked about the peaceful and wrathful deities. Most Westerners don’t know they exist. Is it possible to recognize fear, anger and wrathful things in bardo? Rinpoche: This is the reason Trungpa Rinpoche had the Tibetan Book of the Dead translated, printed, and distributed everywhere. It is very beneficial in introducing people to the bardo." People in the academics have to learn a lot from pagan religions and their ignorance on such matters is inexcusable. If there weren't any problems then obviously my reasons for arguing would have been pointless.

Asking the same question again and again will not change the answer which has been given to you because a fact is a fact and facts don't change. There is nothing special about the equipment. Radioactive element--->Detector(your equipment)-->Trigger's Poison-->Schroedinger's Cat(neither Dead nor Alive)-->Wigner's friend. The entire room is treated as a quantum system and it exists in a superposition of states and it is a well established fact that the properties of a system doesn't exist until a measurement is made on the quantum system and therefore its the very act of observation by Wigner is when nature decides which possibility to realize, the poor cat inside the box doesn't exist independent of Wigner's friend and Wigner's friend inside the room doesn't exist independent of Wigner. Kant argued that the mind is not passive but instead it participates in the retrospective creation of reality, in other words this empirical reality is merely a phenomena which mind makes a form of from the real noumenon. There is something real that exists out there but its definitely not this empirical reality, this reality is only a state of our mind. Vladko Vedral, quantum physicist - "Rather than passively observing it, we in fact create reality" or in other words your mind which is nature is what creates reality. My studies of religion very early proved me that the atheistic position is fundamentally flawed, atheism is dead and its theistic scientists who are unbiased and are being honest with themselves. The other sources are posted to rightly convey my position, it doesn't mean just because some X person says it is true it must be true, experiments are unbiased and independent of authorities and anyone can repeat the experiments and testify the truth for themselves whether its me, you or a 8 year old. I don't do science or religion based on authority, I test them for myself whether it agrees with nature or not and hence the reason why I hold such a radical position, I really don't care how many degrees he or she has or the kind of reputation that they have, even Einstein was wrong in his analysis. I can single handedly defend my position I don't need anyone, before I used to argue alone but now I have a fringe scientific consensus along side with me.

6 days? In Divine Time or Human Time. 7000*365250*5.375 = 13.74 billion years which is same as the age of the universe as affirmed by science.

Just because two people share the same dream doesn't mean that the dream is real and when you come out of your dream you'll surely know it was all a dream and was only a state of mind. People who have visited the numinous and came back claim that living just for a couple of minutes in the numinous implies that 15 days have been passed on this empirical reality. “For a thousand years in your sight are but like yesterday when it is past” (Psalm 90:4) Similarly those who have made an ascent to heaven knows that this empirical reality is a dream and its only a state of mind and its not out there in the physical world independent of us. Even science says the same thing and this is an established fact. No matter how many times you insist that this empirical reality has an objective existence out there in physical world it has no bearing in reality what so ever, it is simply your belief, a belief which is fundamentally flawed, devoid of any evidence or merit. Start accepting facts of nature first or admit you don't have self respect and that you want to go on and believe in any damn thing you want irrespective of what the evidence says, don't display your double standards with me. I don't want a philosophical zombie, remember redness and sweetness doesn't exist in the physical world and if you insist that they are just patterns of the brain then you should be able to replicate it or reproduce it and make us realize what it is like to be to experience an artificially created qualia and only then your assumption that qualia are just patterns of the brain stand or else they are non-physical. Cognitive science has definitely sidelined that issue and many cognitive scientists with in the community insist that qualia should be taken seriously and investigated. Differences exist only in the outer branches but as you move towards the root the differences dilute and become non-existent. According to Max-Muller the proto Indo-Iranian religion started off as sun worship. The present day Indians and Iranians might have forgotten their origins but I have not.

Pagans are liberal, so liberal that they teach that one should not assume that only the rituals of one's own country works but also the rituals and names of gods of other countries work too, yes they are pluralistic. If you actually study the Indo-Eupropean religion you will realize that same gods exist in different cultures and in some cultures that god is given a minor role and treated as a lower god where as in an another culture the same god is given a major role and treated as the God of the Gods, none the less even religion evolves over time and theists of different religion aren't divided much as atheists happen to think so. All Hindus and Buddhists are pagans but all pagans are not Hindus and Buddhists. Hindus and Pagans one billion strong. But I don't agree with the thing said in that link. That's not how one ensures the survival of humanity altogether, by blindly accepting even when people are doing wrong in front of your eyes, blindly accepting their ignorance, if its anything that ensures the survival of humanity altogether is education, its the truth which brings humanity together and not tolerance of ignorance. He who worship a deity separate from himself is ignorant, a slave of gods and poor and those who know that the Father and I are one(John:10:30) are truth, rich and immortal. Just because something is supernatural doesn't mean it is holy or religious, evil things do come from the supernatural, there is this thing called Left Hand path tantra and right Hand path tantra. With in Buddhism it is accepted that there exist supernatural beings who not enlightened and there are men who are well versed in the tantras and use that knowledge to make evil things from those unenlightened supernatural beings. One need to differentiate the culture from the supernatural and differentiate the religious from the supernatural, if we let everyone have their own notions of religion the true message of the divine gets distorted and lost in the process and everyone will fall into ignorance and it is this ignorance that people doesn't know that they are contained with in the Father is the root source of all evil and sin of humanity and only by knowing the truth you can obtain freedom from bondage. Pluralism is welcoming but distortion of the true message of the divine in the name of pluralism is not welcoming at all. Can you tell me where exactly in the brain the processing of redness or sweetness takes place? Many of them not only see this as a hard problem but an impossible one and your models of the world and notions of space-time at the most fundamental level is fundamentally flawed and eastern philosophical models of the mind are in a better position to explain the phenomena of nature and account for it. When I discussed this in the very beginning John said the debate won't even begin but experiments in physics has opened up the debate again and it is here our differences starts. Differential hypotheses between Indian and Western psychology "The most important difference between the Indian and the Western approach seems to be about the existence of pure consciousness as postulated by the former. However, as far as “normal life” is concerned, ancient Indian psychology, especially as expressed in the systems of Nyāya and Vaiśeṣika have astonishingly parallel views with modern Western psychology (e.g., Raju, 1983; Sharma, 2003). But there are also some striking differences. For instance, in contemporary Western cognitive psychology, the relationship between brain and mind is seldom explicitly spelled out, but if one would press researchers to make a statement, most would probably resort to the view that cognitive processes co-vary with brain processes, and if pressed still harder, some might say that essentially brain processes produce cognitions and emotions (e.g., Damasio, 1999). The Indian view is just the opposite: the brain is used as an instrument by the mind (e.g., Raju, 1983). Does the mind use the brain or is the reverse true? This is a very interesting question, which cannot easily be tested. One might, however, try to find evidence for whether mind exists independently from brain. If the brain is the basis for the mind, there should be no mind if the brain is dead. So a good starting point to examine the hypothesis might be to look for evidence on near-death experiences or on reincarnation (for some attempts do to so see Cook, Greyson & Stevenson, 1998; Stevenson, 1987). Do the senses connect to their “sense-objects”? In Indian psychology, at least in the systems of Nyāya and Vaiśeṣika, Sāṁkhya, and Mīmāṁsā, it is assumed that the senses go out to their objects and contact them or even “become” the objects (e.g., Raju, 1983). Therefore, sense-organs such as the eye or the nose that do not really touch their objects seem to be not the whole story according to the Indian view. So one might, for instance, hypothesize that even if the visual sense in the Western understanding does not work any longer, the remaining part of the visual sense in the Indian understanding might still be functioning and an (incomplete) perception might be the result. This hypothesis might open up some interesting links to phenomena such as “blindsight” (e.g., Cowey, 2004)." - Peter Sedlmeier,Indian Psychology and the scientific method. It is our model of the mind which nature agrees with.

The fact that he is still conscious of himself and his body even after such severe damage to the brain begs the question whether consciousness has anything to do with the brain at all. The religion of the Greeks.

I didn't defined religion, traditions defined it and I just accepted their definition. Valentinian tradition Vajrayana tradition Smartha tradition Jewish oral tradition It is traditions which defines religion and I am just going with evidence and have accepted the universality of their definition. There are two ways to know that this world is not real, one way is to do theurgy and directly worship the Aeons or the pleroma of gods taking the path of henosis which shows that this empirical reality is only a state of Nous(Mind). For this you don't need any equipment. The best example for that is an egyptian scholar who appears in the Greek Magical Papyri describing how to make an ascent to heaven to meet the supreme Aeon and how one has to pass through all the gate keepers of heaven to go beyond the Father to know the One and achieve immortality. An another way is by the exact physical sciences, just because the equipment doesn't exist prior to our observations doesn't mean we cannot draw reasonable conclusions from the results of the experiment, quantum mechanics is a pointer to an independent reality and it is pointing straight towards the Pleroma of God. In fact it is the result of the quantum experiment which forces us to question the existence of an empirical world independent of us and the existence of freewill. The physicist doesn't have the freedom to chose the pointer basis of his measurements and he has no influence over the outcome of the experiment and when he sees the result he has to make an inevitable conclusion that the measured object did not had any predefined properties and it is the very act of measurement which brought that object into existence. The epistemology of religion is completely different, when our ancients speak of life air, Prana, they mean something different. "When the living entity is in deep sleep, when he faints, when there is some great shock on account of severe loss, at the time of death, or when the body temperature is very high, the movement of the life air is arrested. At that time the living entity loses knowledge of identifying the body with the self. (SB 4.29.71)" Prana is at the heart of the quantum mind-body problem, it is prana which keeps your Self bonded to the Nous(Mind) and thence by to this empirical reality, this has nothing to do with air moving to our lungs, remember the pagan religions are based on the belief that this world is a duplicate of a world of platonic forms in the real Platonic world. Things are not what you seem it is. This body of mine only exists in your mind, its not out there in the physical world, separability is an illusion, that's our basic view of the world and even science says the same thing, I really don't have to care for such crackpottery comments.

I was envisioning something different. Effect of yogic education system and modern education system on memory Tradition is important and it is tradition which defines religion, there is an orthodoxy, religion is not something where anything goes and anyone comes up with any nonsense notion of God and demands that we should accept it, no it doesn't work like that. We have preserved the Vedic Aryan Religion and it is going to correct science and we will continue to model the world that a mind and an intellect exists in the platonic world separate from the brain and our model indeed works and it is the truth of this world.

By performing experiments which violate Local Realism. I can cite loads of evidence for it, working scientists should abandon the belief that this empirical reality exist independent of us because facts established from experiments contradicts that belief. Either accept these facts or accept that working scientists have lost their self respect, intellectual honesty and credibility. I can simulate a virtual environment and make you feel that the equipment exists out there for real by stimulating your senses in a certain way so that it gives you the experience of touch, pressure, haptic, audio etc and make the equipment as real as out there but in actuality the equipment doesn't exist, the same is with this world the moon doesn't exist when no one is looking at it. This empirical reality is a retrospective creation of the Nous(Mind), a product of a divine God. Natural Interactive Walking Project

There is no demarcation line which seperates the quantum world from the classical, even the measuring apparatus or the equipment should be treated as a quantum system and it doesn't exist independent of us, just as John Clauser said, "Perhaps an unheard tree falling in the forest make no sound after all" That's not the only thing which proves that the pagan mystery religions are true there are other evidences as well. Its the existence of mathematicians, they can see the truth value of statements for which no algorithm exists to know that, which implies that the only way they could have known is by accessing their intellect in the Platonic world showing that human mathematical understanding is non-computable. The information or epistemology of knowledge doesn't flow in this direction here: Empirical world--->via senses-->Brain Instead it flows like this: Platonic world-->Intellect-->Mind-->Empirical reality(Brain) “A majority of contemporary mathematicians (a typical, though disputed, estimate is about two-thirds) believe in a kind of heaven – not a heaven of angels and saints, but one inhabited by the perfect and timeless objects they study: n-dimensional spheres, infinite numbers, the square root of -1, and the like. Moreover, they believe that they commune with this realm of timeless entities through a sort of extra-sensory perception.” “And today’s mathematical Platonists agree. Among the most distinguished of them is Alain Connes, holder of the Chair of Analysis and Geometry at the College de France, who has averred that “there exists, independently of the human mind, a raw and immutable mathematical reality.”… Platomism is understandably seductive to mathematicians. It means that the entities they study are no mere artifacts of the human mind: these entities are discovered, not invented… Many physicists also feel the allure of Plato’s vision.” - Jim Holt One can testify the existence of Platonic world by doing Theurgy also. The default position now is that the numinous exists.

Its a highly valid hypothesis. What I have discussed here is the very heart of Christianity and Hinduism, I have read works which you guys haven't, it is unlikely that Carl Jung knew about Devudu or the other way around, Carl Jung's works were hidden in a vault and no one knew about it except his family and much of Devudu's works has not been translated from his native language by his family either and yet their cosmogony is identical and both acquired their knowledge via intuitive access to the numinous, there is an astonishing degree of similarity between Valentinian Monism and the Vedic Aryan religion, every word to word except the Demiurge part which has been corrected by the Neo-platonist Plotinus, other than that everything else is ditto and it deserves an explanation. I am happy that scholars like Allan Wallace do recognize it. View our ancients in their own eyes and not put your pet theories on a pedestal and distort their beautiful insights. There is just too much misrepresentation and that's what forces me to speak out loud, we are mainly concerned with Aeons, Caves, Bridal Chambers and such stuff where as you are concerned with Quarks, Labs, Bubble Chambers and other stuff. The methodologies and epistemologies are completely different if its anything that is in agreement between science and religion it is the conclusion about the nature of reality that's all. That's a result which physicists should be embarrased of and you have posted it as though scientists have solved the measurement problem and concluded that there is no mystery in it. It was this conviction of the founders of Quantum mechanics like Bohr and Heisenberg that science cannot give an objective account of reality which forced them to look for alternative models of reality or other philosophical systems, take as much funding as you want and build as many big particle accelerators as you want but do remember that 8 year olds who are educated based on eastern philosophical systems know about the nature of reality better than physicists do. No wonder why the foundations of QM has not been taught to physics students. You are badly mistaken. "The "veiled reality", then, can in no way help Christians or Muslims or Jews or anyone else rationalise their specific beliefs. The Templeton Foundation – despite being headed up by John Templeton Jr, an evangelical Christian – claims to afford no bias to any particular religion, and by awarding their prize to d'Espagnat, I think they've proven that to be true." Concept of hypercosmic God wins Templeton prize

Just because a belief is popular it doesn't make it true. Since I criticize Christians and Hindus alike I don't have to be sympathetic to anyone who doesn't go with evidence. Yes, this is a science forum, whether those Aeons exist or not is one thing but the fact remains that 33 Aeons exist in Christianity as well as in Hinduism. But humanity has forgotten the Father who sent Christ for us. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0319.htm Tertullian in Against All Heresies also discusses Abraxas in the account of Basilides’ system as a higher aeon: “Basilides affirms that there is a supreme Deity, by name Abraxas, by whom was created Mind, which in Greek he calls Nous; that thence sprang the Word; that of Him issued Providence, Virtue, and Wisdom; that out of these subsequently were made Principalities, powers, and Angels; that there ensued infinite issues and processions of angels; that by these angels 365 heavens were formed, and the world, in honour of Abraxas, whose name, if computed, has in itself this number. Now, among the last of the angels, those who made this world, he places the God of the Jews latest, that is, the God of the Law and of the Prophets, whom he denies to be a God, but affirms to be an angel. To him, he says, was allotted the seed of Abraham, and accordingly he it was who transferred the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt into the land of Canaan; affirming him to be turbulent above the other angels, and accordingly given to the frequent arousing of seditions and wars, yes, and the shedding of human blood. Christ, moreover, he affirms to have been sent, not by this maker of the world, but by the above-named Abraxas; and to have come in a phantasm, and been destitute of the substance of flesh: that it was not He who suffered among the Jews, but that Simon was crucified in His stead: whence, again, there must be no believing on him who was crucified, lest one confess to having believed on Simon. Martyrdoms, he says, are not to be endured. The resurrection of the flesh he strenuously impugns, affirming that salvation has not been promised to bodies.” "According to Irenaeus, Basilides taught that the universe began when five Aeons (or Aions, literally "eternities") emanated in succession from the Unbegotten Father. These were: Mind (Nous) or Christ, Word (Logos), Intelligence or Prudence (Phronêsis), Wisdom (Sophia) and Strength or Power (Dynamis). These five Aeons constitute the Plêrôma ("Fullness"). From the last two Aeons, Sophia and Dynamis, issued 365 spirit-realms or "heavens" in an unbroken descending sequence, each with its own set of angelic rulers. These 365 "heavens" or "Aethyrs" are constituted under the name Abrasax. By Greek Gematria, ABRASAX = 365." Aeons were an important topic of discussion in Early Christian times.

Insulting someone who is always way ahead of everyone is not a good idea, instead it makes you sound foolish especially when he is speaking based on evidence. Statements From Scientists On Bernard d’Espagnat Wins 2009 Templeton Prize What you contend as possible or impossible has no bearing in reality or in nature. That's the way nature is, accept this basic fact first instead of accusing that my beliefs are absurd, my beliefs are based on facts established from experiments. Experiments have shown that it is the premise realism which is at stake here and that's an established fact. Hence the conclusion, "The doctrine that the world is made up of objects whose existence is independent of human consciousness turns out to be in conflict with quantum mechanics and with facts established by experiment." "A dicovery that discredits a basic assumption about the structure of the world, an assumption long held and seldom questioned, is anything but trivial. It is a welcome illumination." - Bernard D'Espagnat, Quantum Theory and Reality. "Most working scientists hold fast to the concept of 'realism' - a viewpoint according to which an external reality exists independent of observation. But quantum physics has shattered some of our cornerstone beliefs. According to Bell's theorem, any theory that is based on the joint assumption of realism and locality (meaning that local events cannot be affected by actions in spacelike separated regions) is at variance with certain quantum predictions. Experiments with entangled pairs of particles have amply confirmed these quantum predictions, thus rendering local realistic theories untenable. Maintaining realism as a fundamental concept would therefore necessitate the introduction of 'spooky' actions that defy locality. Here we show by both theory and experiment that a broad and rather reasonable class of such non-local realistic theories is incompatible with experimentally observable quantum correlations. In the experiment, we measure previously untested correlations between two entangled photons, and show that these correlations violate an inequality proposed by Leggett for non-local realistic theories. Our result suggests that giving up the concept of locality is not sufficient to be consistent with quantum experiments, unless certain intuitive features of realism are abandoned" - A Test for Non-Local Realism. Your equipment doesn't exist independent of us, empirical reality is not externally out there, our ancients knew what this world is made of. Its not my problem if majority of people aren't well versed in pagan religions. Science and religion is converging and this is the point where they converge.

Exactly, that's why the conclusion What we call reality is only a state of mind. - Bernard D'Espagnat. We don't have to be embarrassed that this position leads us to solipsism. There is an alternative. "However, d’Espagnat seems to believe in the unicity of individual consciousnesses. In Mind and Matter and in My View of the World, Schrodinger had raised the problem of the existence of a plurality of conscious minds, which he refers to as the arithmetical paradox : how to explain the existence of a plurality of conscious minds while the world described by science is only one? In Schrodinger’s view, a consistent solution was to adopt the thesis of the unicity of minds: there is only one mind shining differently in each of us which makes it appear to be many. D’Espagnat faces the same problem as many minds seem to take part in the emergence of the one empirical reality. In many respects, he seems to agree with Schrodinger’s thesis." - Jonathon Duqette, philosopher of religion. We have modelled the world for over three thousand years or so that each one of us have a metaphysical mind and metaphysical sense organs and these things are real and it is these things which are responsible for the retrospective creation of this empirical reality, that's why I am a platonic realist.

Some where in this thread I have said that there is no such thing as spiritual but not religious, either you are religious or you're not and anything else is complete nonsense. Being religious means knowing thyself, knowing the One(Your soul) from which everything emanated, who here knows the One, only he is religious, I certainly don't know it. Did you got my position? I not only argue for the Gods of Buddhism but also for the Aeons of Valentinianism, Devas of Vedism, Taoism and Sefirot of Judaism, I am just going by what scholarly evidence is saying, that's all, whether it is secular or non-secular I really don't care. Yes empirical things are the things which exists inside our minds and the things that religion deals with is what exists out there in noumenal world. That's our basic view of the world in the east. For your kind information scientific realism is dead, your continuous insistence that an objective reality exists independent of us has been falsified numerous times by experiments and yet you continue to blindly argue that this objective reality exists out there, instead of giving up your enshrined beliefs you are in the dream that nature agrees with you, so please change your perspective of things. We need to abandon the notion of an objective reality existing independent of us. I have come out of my dream and even you should too.

Sure, I will. They did it like this. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0262407907615838 The pointer position of the apparatus will be also in a superposition of macroscopically distinct states and hence it doesn't make any sense to assume that what we cannot measure about a system has an independent reality. In simple terms empirical reality doesn't exist out there, it doesn't exist independent of us.

No, it has made me wise, I am at rest. I can go to any extent and say that the majority of the so called Christians and Hindus are not really religious people at all. There are 33 Aeons in Christianity and there are 33 devas in the Vedas and the Upanishads. There are many more core agreements like such, for now that's enough. Almost 99% of so called Christians and Hindus of today aren't really aware of these 33 Aeons or do not even take their existence seriously and have deviated from the things which exists with in their own religious scriptures. No one really smiles more than me when they read the secrets of the Kingdom of God daily and yet they do not understand them. Very nice, the sooner they start questioning the beliefs of orthodox religions and come out of its grips the better, its good if they develop that scientific bent of mind at an early age so that they question beliefs which are held on strong prejudices, the sooner they go through that atheistic phase in their life the better it is for them so that they better accept and understand different points of view. The books of Nag Hammadi Library shed more light on whether the accusations of church fathers like Ireneaus and Tertullian were true or not and scholars working on such works very well know what the truth is. "Those who attended such meetings might also hear that the bishop— Irenaeus himself—although a good man, was a person of limited understanding who had not progressed beyond faith to gnosis." "Several Valentinian works discovered at Nag Hammadi, including the Gospel of Truth and the Gospel of Philip, offer correctives to charges that the Valentinians were immoral. In one of the few remaining fragments of his teachings, Valentinus himself, commenting on Jesus’ saying that “God alone is good,” says that apart from God’s grace, the human heart is a “dwelling place for many demons. But when the Father, who alone is good, looks upon it, he purifies and illuminates it with his light; thus the one who has such a heart is blessed, because he sees God.” The Gospel of Truth, which may also have been written by Valentinus, offers the following ethical instruction to gnostic Christians: "Speak of the truth with those who seek for it, and of gnosis to those who have committed sins in their error. Secure the feet of those who have stumbled, and stretch out your hands to those who are ill. Feed those who are hungry, and give rest to those who are weary. . . . For you are the understanding which is drawn forth. If strength acts thus, it becomes even stronger. . . . Do not become a dwelling place for the devil, for you have already destroyed him" " - Elaine Pagels, Origin of Satan Scholar of Gnosticism. 1. Church fathers like Irenaeus and Tertullian were bishops of limited understanding which is quite well evident in their works of Against heresies. 2. Since they did not understand them, their judgement and some of the accusations of them on such sects were wrong as is well evident from the findings of the books at Nag Hammadi. 3. When they couldn't able to stop the unstoppable Valentinians they denounced them as being victims of Satan which was quite silly. 4. It gives more support to my position that women had equal opportunity with men and that religion doesn't in any way suppress freedom of women by the respect that is given to women in early Christian times. Many people don't take up science because it is boring for them but that doesn't mean it is boring for scientists who do science, what is boring to you was gold for our ancients. People who under go religious experiences are healthy individuals and without positive evidence otherwise to account for such religious experiences the atheist claim that they are hallucinations doesn't really stand when compared to the amount of theological agreement that exists across different cultures and of disconnected time and places. Admit that you were wrong I'll withdraw this discussion immediately, if not all I did was offer scholarly evidence refuting your position.

Sure. The fact that what we call empirical reality is only a state of mind and once you accept this fact you are not far away from realizing that this mind is the product of a divine God. These are facts established from experiments and its a cop out by those who doesn't want to accept it and doesn't allow to discuss such things, a cop out to keep humanity in deep ignorance. Quantum Enigma Controversy

That's not my problem, I am going with what scholarly evidence and empirical evidence are saying, just because a majority of people revere a particular belief doesn't make it true, the majority of those who call themselves religious are just wrong for they don't know the things that exists with in their own religious scriptures. I believe that everyone should know the truth, so introducing this in schools will be a better idea so that it will at least prevent a society from producing atheists and fanatics. 1800 years, Humanity has been in ignorance for way too long but things have changed, today's scholars have access to truth, mainly the well written Gospel of Truth. "Through this, the gospel of the one who is searched for, which <was> revealed to those who are perfect, through the mercies of the Father, the hidden mystery, Jesus, the Christ, enlightened those who were in darkness through oblivion. He enlightened them; he showed (them) a way; and the way is the truth which he taught them." Today's generation knows what the truth is and no one can deceive them. The Gnostic Paul; heresy, secrecy, Christ myth, entheogens, fatedness "This is the knowledge of the living book, which he revealed to the aeons at the end as his letters, revealing how they are not vowels nor are they consonants, so that one might read them and think of something foolish, but (rather that) they are letters of the truth, which they alone speak who know them. Each letter is a complete <thought>, like a complete book, since they are letters written by the Unity, the Father having written them for the aeons, in order that by means of his letters they should know the Father. The Father reveals his bosom. - Now his bosom is the Holy Spirit. - He reveals what is hidden of him - what is hidden of him is his Son - so that through the mercies of the Father, the aeons may know him and cease laboring in search of the Father, resting there in him, knowing that this is the (final) rest." - Gospel of Truth The Aeons are at the heart of the truth about Christianity, you reject them you kill Christianity. Either the catholic church should stop misinterpreting the works of Paul and accept this explicit teachings or keep the Pauline epistles separate from their Christianity, anything else is shear double standards, today I have questioned it, tomorrow someone will. Comparative religious studies has put some broad light on religious experiences since the time of Broad, and we know a lot now, the ethical structure of those who have had religious experiences are not the only reasons why such experiences should be accepted as veridical, there is a much more stronger argument than that. "While Buddhism is deemed nontheistic, the Vedas are regarded as polytheistic, and the Bible is monotheistic, we have seen that the cosmogonies of Vajrayana Buddhism, Vedanta, and Neoplatonic Christianity have so much in common that they could almost be regarded as varying interpretations of a single theory. Moreover, the commonality does not end there, for in the Near East, the writings of Plotinus (205-270) also influenced Islamic and Jewish theories of creation. This apparent unity could be attributed to mere coincidence, or to the historical propagation of a single, speculative, metaphysical theory throughout south Asia and the Near East. For example, the Upanishads may well have influenced the writings of early Mahayana thinkers in India, and they could also have made their way to the Near East, where they might have inspired the writings of Plotinus. On the other hand, Plotinus declared that his theories were based on his own experiential insights, and similar claims have been made by many Buddhist and Vedantin contemplatives. If these cosmogonies are indeed based upon valid introspective knowledge, then there may some plausibility to the claims of many contemplatives throughout the world that introspective inquiry can lead to knowledge, not only of the ultimate ground of being, but of the fundamental laws of nature as well." - Alan Wallace, Is Buddhism really non-theistic. There is a core agreement between the cosmogonies of a fringe sect of Neo-platonic Christians, Vedic Aryans and Tibetan Buddhists and it should be accepted that they were able to access an objective reality which we have not yet made an effort to access to and this is undeniable, the evidence is far too much to ignore it. Broad was right. No, no, wait, don't get away, shouldn't I expose some of your double standards.