immortal

This is the foundation principle upon which all Aryan beliefs stands. Gayatri Mantra If Consciousness is non-computable the likely hood that a mind and an intellect exists seperate from the brain is more and if a mind and an intellect exists then the likely hood of a god guiding that intellect increases. This is the single most reason why I believed in it. This belief is what pushed me to dedicate my life and perform that method for one year. That's how that link supports my concept of God. He is not a sky god sitting under a golden chair wearing a golden crown, he is someone who is guiding your intellect and your intuition or your thought process. This is the reason why I assert that if strong AI can come up with a self aware machine which thinks on its own then my belief system will be disproved. I find this view of Roger Penrose more rational than saying that ours is the 6515246851468765th earth and we came into existence by pure chance. Aryans view the mind as a tightly held rope with the five senses attached to one end and the intelligence attached at the other end. They don't see intelligence as something associated with the brain instead they see it as physical entities existing in their own realm like platonic values. Note that there is nothing associated with the brain or any other signals, it doesn't come into the picture at all. God is someone who resides behind that intelligence and he is guiding our intellect.

Moontanman said, Since non-believers think that those God's light rays may very well be a hallucination and does not believe in that method and since they can not determine whether those light rays are real or a hallucination it is termed as dishonesty by atheists. So lets keep that argument aside for a moment. Moontanman had often requested to show evidence demonstrating that such theistic models has any credibility on physical reality and I had said that when theists bring such phenomena to the scientific method of enquiry these models can be tested and analyzed on common grounds. This phenomena doesn't show any real knowledge gained by a theist in a positive way but those vital forces which gives extrasensory perception and super intelligence showing positive results on theists may also have a negative effect for a theist when those forces are stimulated in a wrong way and this negative effect can be seen in physical reality and affects the physical realm. I got this insight when phanthom mentioned about Moses and about Epileptic seizure and I went and did a background on those seizures and I found this. I performed that method for a year and suddenly one day as soon as I finished my last step I fell foward unconsciously in the morning and I fell backwards in the evening on the same day after the same last step. The experience which I had in the morning is called as a Atonic seizure. What are seizures The experience which I had in the evening is called as a Tonic seizure. I had asked neurologists, priests, top religious men and others but no one gave me a satisfactory explanation as to why I fell unconscious and my neurologist is diagnosing me for depression and he doesn't seem to be interested in this and in the end I had to figure this out myself and found out that what I experienced a Tonic and an Atonic seizure. As epileptic society of UK indicates that everyone has a susceptible threshold for seizures and anyone can experience such a seizure when that threshold decreases for various other reasons. The pathophysiology of such seizures are poorly understood and it has been said that lack of sleep, stress and other genetic factors causes such abnormal excessive release of neurotransmitters causing an excitatory response but how satisfactory is such an explanation considering the intellectual achievement of mankind. Seizure prediction models have failed to predict such seizures and so far have been inconsistent and diagnostic methods like CT Scaning and MRI imaging or angiography which are used to determine the underlying cause show nothing unusual on those patients. Lack of oxygen to brain on some strange situations are believed to trigger such a seizure but what is the mechanism that underlies such abnormality. So lets get into the molecular neurobiology of it and see what is happening. Since this is the work of other biologists. I'll quote it. In traditional yoga they speak of channels called as Nadis Nadi (yoga). Here Nadi means flow or a river. The thing that flows is a force called prana, a vital force responsible for the normal activity of a living being. This is not a physical force and it exists in a different realm, existing in the subtle body. The question is it is easy to believe and understand how a actin myosin fibre would contract and relax in a co-ordinated fashion by recieving the processed signal which comes the synaptic junctions. But from where such a processed signal or information is coming to control and self organize those microtubulins and other actin and myosin fibres which frequently assemble and disassemble going through contraction and relaxation cycles which should help cells to locate food, help in cell motility and explore their environment and also move molecules and membrane proteins in a particular direction. The question is how is such a processing is done to control and co-ordinate such complex movements. The work of Stuart Hameroff on microtubules shows its connection with consciousness and its activity. They try to reduce consciousness to the quantum processing occuring in the microtubulins of the neurons which I think is a big mistake since consciousness is some thing which might be an activity working outside of the Brain. I think the ancient traditional yogic methods had control over the anterograde and the retrograde axonic flow indirectly and there is a lot of information supporting such an insight. Dr. Wallace on the physiology of Transcendental Meditation So I think that the flow of the prana or the vital force is tightly coupled with the anterograde and the retrograde flow and traditional yoga science by developing methods to control the flow of prana there by controlled the anterograde and retrograde flow and in this way both body and mind benefited from such techniques. In this way yogic methods provide health benefits and prevent aging of the body and there is lot of evidence supporting the idea that yoga improves metabolic rate and aids in the proper efficient functioning of the body. If it has been shown to work and affect the human body means that it is an indirect evidence that the supernatural force prana exists and is in work in every living being. We didn't directly knew that protons were in turn made up of quarks but we had indirect evidence that they exist because when we beamed electron beams through protons they lost their energy in quantified radiations a process called as bremsstrahlung. Many here think that an undefined outside force can not be proved or shown to exist but such a thing can be indirectly shown to exist when predictions made for such a force has an affect on physical reality too. According to Kundalini yoga there are energy points called as chakras which contain super intelligent capabilities. The kundalini yoga predicts such a seizure will happen in susceptible young people when they have blockages for the flow of prana and when kundalini energy awakens and raises upwards. So I believe a genuine pranic healer would diagnose such seizures and give treatment well rather than a neurologist. So I think I experienced such a seizure because there was an imbalance in the flow of prana in the subtle body and this imbalance caused an imbalance in the anterograde and the retrograde axonic flow and in turn this would have induced changes in the presynaptic membrane aiding the release of excessive synchronous excitatory release of neurotransmitters resulting in the loss of consciousness and sudden jerking and contraction and relaxation of body muscles. I find this explanation more rational because the seizure happened on both occasions as soon as I finshed the 12th step of the technique, it was not random so I believe there is a pattern to it and there is a science behind it, a science which might model consciousness. This is a mere speculation. The explanation that a seizure starts from the brain and occurs without warning whose pathophysiological origin of the cause is not yet found adds support to my belief. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2510/

No I think I am on the right track, apart from his opinion about quantum theory and about brain function his argument that there is a non-computable element in our thought process is a strong mathematical argument which gives some insights into how consciousness operates. His opinion is not based on some mumbo-jumbo. The mechanisms that are working in between the synaptic junctions of the neurons can not account for the non-computability of thought. I find parallel insights with the Aryas view of the world. The non-computability of thought can be easily exercised if we view that Brain and Mind are two different things and if we drop our reductionist bottom up approach. According to them God is not someone sitting above the sky on a golden chair wearing a crown. God is someone who is residing in you guiding your intellect, your mind and your thought process and he is not quite far from you nor he is unknowable. Kant might very well be wrong when he said that the only way possible to acquire knowledge is through the sense organs. A new observation with out using the sense organs is very much possible. The most often criticism for religious beliefs and faith is that there is no method to test that faith and there is nothing wrong in trying to explore and find new ways and new methods which work for all instances to test those belief systems. Yes many people have suggested this kind of advice to me but I wasn't exceedingly naive to perform that method for one year and to dedicate my life. However the experience that I had was a negative one and had negative effects because I didn't performed it correctly.

Moontanman said, Horse feathers, there is no reason, no evidence that god is necessarily at all, none except your need to believe.... Really? There is no reason? If we have to simulate or model this universe then its inevitable that we have to model consciousness, If we have to model consciousness we need non-computable physics because consciousness is non-computable. Science will never be able to find that non-computable physics without bringing God into the picture because I think God holds the key to non-computable physics and therefore our hope of a single fundamental model might never be realized. So what's wrong if I go and explore a new world looking for non-computable physics. There is certainly a need for that, I see it and I think that it might come from God and this is the reason why I want to dedicate my life and explore new worlds and I want to speculate on them. I definitely doesn't want to fall to pseudoscience neither I want to promote or push any false belief systems here. I hope I have answered your questions. I have to quote Roger Penrose on this. Roger Penrose on Non-Computability.

Excuse me!!! I very much agree with you and INow that the only way to progress humanity is to have real quality meme pool in our brains and to achieve that it is very much important to have that scientific attitude and it should be exercized often so that we won't fall into pseudoscience and start dedicating our lives and start believing in anything we want. The scientific community has a huge responsibility on its shoulders to suppress pseudoscience, fraudulents and make sure that only testified real data is passed on and if its real, the meme will be automatically passed on we don't have to make it look real, it will survive on its own. I started this thread to disprove the existence of God with the same scientific rigour and attitude as we apply for other arguments and Moontanman requested for theistic models and I gave one but because of how those models work such a model can be scientifically or universally testified only when a theist brings such phenomena to the scientific method of enquiry and I have requested a few days to demonstrate such a phenomena and I very well know it is on my head to show that such an idea is real. I also explained why such a phenomena is so rare and why it is difficult to gain such knowledge. This is the reason I posted this in the speculation forums and I am working on to come up with an argument and I will post it soon so that we can speculate it on common grounds. I don't know what made INow to say this and I quote. It wasn't required and I have said that I didn't started this thread to beg respect for such an idea with out earning it first. I was just speculating. Just because you don't have the right insight to understand the idea doesn't in any way make the idea less credible and deserve dismissal. Yes the Aryas were Gnostic theists so the argument here is not that whether we require a God in our model or not, the argument here is that we can not model or simulate this world without bringing God into the picture. Its not whether science requires God or not. So when the situation is like this and since science has not yet found a fundamental model explaining all things from the origin to till now why is an argument that a God exists and is currently interfering with human affairs is not a feasible and a possible argument. Most people here hold a default position and doesn't really allow a model of the world involving God, this is the attitude of a gnostic atheist, if you really want to be that guy why do you allow the argument of God to creep in, I mean if this is the scientific attitude then why don't science be so gnostic and say that the probability and the possibility of the existence of God is absolutely zero. It has not shown that and yet some are unwilling to accept or speculate on an argument which has a huge collection of data called as scriptures or the word of God which also gives a method to know god. Many people here talk of unicorns, puff the magic dragons and other funny things or whatever and they might even have a scripture of their own and they are asking to worship them. These are all may be great ideas but what they don't understand is that if someone worships them and gains some knowledge and demonstrates it in public then that idea will survive and it will be found out to be very real. This may sound silly but it works doesn't it. Talking of intellectual honesty. I don't deny evolution by Natural selection, I don't deny Quantum physics or relativity but I have serious doubts about our full understanding as to how evolution happens you may say random mutations followed by cumulative selection but it doesn't satisfy me. Einstein was never satisfied with the copenhagen interpretation of QM, it doesn't satisfy Roger Penrose, it doesn't satisfy me too. You may be good at math and know something about statistical probability and it might have led to some amazing technological advancements but it has not yet answered those philosophical questions and this is the reason why guys like me pop in holding the argument of a God. I am a theist and I am trying to be a genuine gnostic theist so I am speculating on whether my argument makes me a gnostic theist or not. I want to put my belief systems to test and see whether it bears any truth in reality so what's wrong with that, how I am termed to be intellectually dishonest? If I rationalize irrespective of what the outcome of the test is and still hold on to my beliefs then it would be a dishonesty on my part isn't it? I think people should read this. When Epilepsy goes by a other name

I didn't started this thread to beg respect for thiestic beliefs without earning it first, I think both INow, Moontanman and Appolinaria have a point. INow and Moontanman think that something deserves respect only if substantiate evidence is been provided in favour of it where as Appolinaria thinks that such an argument has to be tolerated and respected and a credence should be given until it is reduced to the scientific method of enquiry and fully disproved. I either want to be a gnostic theist or a gnostic atheist and I don't want to be that crackpottery guy moving goal posts and making fallacies. I am someone who makes things work and talk less. Give me one or two days I'll come up with an argument so that we can discuss it on common grounds without any bias or any dishonesty.

The proof works quite fine for a theist who believes in it and you don't have to believe in it if you think it doesn't deserve such respect, you can believe and take it seriously once a theist gains some knowledge and brings such phenomena to the scientific method of enquiry. In this way it works for all instances even if you don't believe in it. The master learned from his master and he learned from his master in this way this knowledge has been passed on for thousands of years and forms a huge collection of data which needs to be investigated, this was just a small step which I showed, the giant leap is yet to come by doing further research. That knowledge came from god because the upanishads and vedas have no author. In other words the God guided their intellect to write such verses.

No either one is right or the other is wrong. I had earlier made claims which if science proves then this belief system will be abandoned. Both religion and science simultaneously can not show god that would be a contradiction either religion has to show a personal god who is beyond the sense organs or science has to reduce such a phenomena to the brain and show a personal god at request in a laboratory. There is no bias here the challenge is which side of the people will be able to show a personal god is the real issue. It has nothing to do with answers which science has not yet answered. The new information is that there is a method to reveal the personal god and therefore the existence of god can be faslified by repeating that method but unfortunately you have to believe in the method and have faith in him and that faith can be tested so this method is more suited to theists. One has to pray the following verse in the begining of the method. hiranmayena patrena satyasyapihitam mukham tat tvam pushannya apavrino satya-dharmaya drishtaye (Isopanishad, Verse 15 from the scripture) It means that the truth is hidden behind God's complex geometry of light rays and those light rays are preventing us from seeing him clearly and the ultimate truth so we should plead him to remove those impeding light rays and show us the path of righteousness SURYANAMASKAR 1. Stand facing the Sun with palms folded and both the thumbs touching the chest. Breathing: Inhale while raising the hands and exhale as hands are brought down to chest level. * Om Hraam 'Udhyannadhyamitramahaha' Mitraya Namaha (Mitra - friend) 2. Raise hands upward, with feet firmly on the ground, bend backwards, stretch arms fully. Breathing: Inhale * Om Hreem 'Aarohannuththaraamdivamm' Ravaye Namaha (Ravi - radiance) 3. Slowly bend forward, hands touching the earth with respect, head touching the knees. Breathing: Exhale. * Om Hruum 'Hridrogam mama surya' Suryaya Namaha (Surya dispeller of darkness) 4. Set both hands with the palms down firmly on the ground, pull the left leg backward, raise the head looking at the Sun, full weight resting on the two palm and ten fingers. Breathing: Inhale * Om Hraim 'Harimaanam cha naashaya' Bhanave Namaha (Bhanu Shining with luster) 5. Bring right leg back close to left leg, keeping hands and legs straight, bend the body at the hip forming an arch, just like a mountain, known as 'parvathasan or mountain pose'. Breathing: Exhale * Om Hroum 'Shukeshu May Harimaanamm' Khagaya Namaha (Khaga all pervading) 6. Stretch yourself fully on the ground in the Saashtanga Namaskar pose (all eight 'anga' or parts of the body on the ground head, thigh, eyes (sight), mind, word, feet, hands and ears (hearing)). In reality, feet, knees, thighs, chest, forehead touch the ground with the hands stretched out and in folded position, with your mind and thoughts on the full namaskar, then slowly turn the head to the sides first to left and then to right so that each ear touches the ground. Breathing: Inhale first and then Exhale fully. * Om Hraha 'Ropanaakaasu dhadhmasi' Pooshne Namaha (Pushan mystic fire which gives) 7. Slowly raise the head, bend backward as much as possible, hands straight, in the cobra pose. Breathing: Inhale * Om Hraam 'Atho Haaridraveshu May' Hiranyagarbhaya Namaha (hiranyagarbha golden colored) 8. Parvathasan same as Step 5. Breathing: Exhale * Om Hreem 'Harimaanannidhadhmasi' Marichaye Namaha (Marichi Ray of light) 9. Same as Step 4 with the difference that the right leg is brought forward. Breathing: Inhale * Om Hruum 'Udagaadhayamaadithyah' Adityaya Namaha (Aditya Sun, aspect of Vishnu, Son of Aditi. 10. Same as Step 3 Breathing: Exhale * Om Hraim 'Vishwena Sahasaa Saha' Savitre Namaha (Savitru Light of enlightenment. 11. Same as Step 2 Breathing: Inhale * Om Hroum 'Dwishantham Mama Randhayann' Arkaya Namaha (Arkah a ray of light, a flash of lightning, Sun) 12. Same as Step 1 Breathing: Exhale, Inhale and Exhale. * Om Hraha 'Mo Aham dwishatho Rattham' Bhaskaraya Namaha (Bhaskara Shining Light) ( Caution: This exercise has to be performed under the guidance of a master I am not responsible for any side effects on your body if you do not do it correctly and approach it with egoistic mind and the verses given in asterisk should be silently uttered in mind while one is performing the exercise and this has to performed two times in a day morning and evening) Yes no one would believe in it blindly and I'm not fooling around here, this method has a history of 5000 years and there are genuine information available about it. You can research on it and decide for yourself whether he deserves to be worshipped or not and again faith is a gift and I can not give you that but I can provide information about it History, Surya Namaskara and its Origins. Yes in my OP I had mentioned about the work of Dr.Presinger, I am quite aware of this research and it was this research which forced me to start this thread. The point is if neurologists can show a personal god at request in a lab then this belief system will be destroyed and we can say religious experiences are nothing more than hallucinations happening in the temporal lobe of the brain. This is the challenge. A thing is a proof if it works always and not for some instances only. God should always appear if we perform the method with the right frame of mind believing in him and surrendering yourself to him because God himself had said that I will always appear to those people who study the "Isopanishad" scripture and understand the truth behind it. So he has to appear to keep up his words.

Yes you need to do it with the right frame of mind and the outcome depends on your approach to such knowledge. In Angels and Demons when Father asks Tom Hanks "Do you believe in God professor". Tom hanks says "I'm a research academic, faith is a gift of god which I'm yet to recieve". Even I was a atheist once, a fan of Richard Dawkins but there is this thing called human curiosity and I started studying the scriptures and my intellect just couldn't discard them easily, if science had answered all my questions it would have been easy for me to discard it and say they are talking rubbish. These theistic models are for the gifted ones who have faith and once you have that gift these models provide a method to testify whether they are true or not and they go on to form the major religions of the world. This is how theism operates and should operate to ensure that its knowledge is valid and genuine and can be passed on to others. So theists believe there is something which has to be investigated seriously and their testable methods provide a means to accumulate genuine knowledge favouring the existence of god and they don't accept anything just by blind faith, the methods are the key to differentiate genuine knowledge from invalid ones. This is not science but in no way this is intellectually dishonest. You don't deserve such knowledge from god if you think he doesn't deserve to be worshipped of and if you won't dedicate your life and surrender yourself to him. Unfortunately this is how theism operates, theists have faith and revealations provide a means to testify those belief systems. Theism answers questions which science doesn't. When I ask "Does God exist?". I want a honest answer with evidence as to why he doesn't exist, I don't want answers like probably, may be he doesn't exist. Science can not show me God, religion can. Science doesn't seem like disproving the existence of god with its current attitude where as religion can prove his existence for the theists atleast, if it can not prove it universally since not everyone seems to have the gift of faith. I may not have a knowledge to upload a new language on to my mind and start speaking in it with out even taking time to learn about it but I have knowledge to show God to an another theist. Hallucinations happen randomly during random times where as God's experience happens only when one is performing those yogic methods and not at other times. This shows there is a pattern in the observed data and this collection of testified data is the foundation for some of the major religions of the world. This is the reason it is so important in brain research to model such experiences and if you can stimulate my brain and induce a feeling of god's experience then I will have no problem in believing that it is just a mere hallucination and I will change my view. You haven't shown me that it is a hallucination either and therefore my argument still stands. Why should I take that default position and dismiss it completely. But he didn't asked God to open up a new heaven for him as the price of his sacrifice, he didn't expect anything from God nor from anyone. He didn't asked that he wants to rule the earth and take control over the earth and enjoy its pleasure. His body is permanently dead he came back with his spiritual body. We all are immortals he would have died permanently if we were mortals. Don't blame Jesus for not dieing permanently.

Interesting article. In Near death experience one dreams and sleeps while he or she is awake. Just like you cannot respond or control the events while you are dreaming in the same way in Near death experience you cannot respond to your surroundings and you cannot respond to people communicating with you even though you feel desperate to respond to their questions but the brain fails to link the thought processes and you feel like you have forgot what they asked even before you want to respond to them. This clearly shows that the brain shuts down and fails to work properly. It is true that this happens in a weird state in between the boundaries of deep sleep and full awareness. You feel like that the brain has shut itself down and you feel like you will never be awake again once if you try to sleep by closing your eyes. The subject will be afraid and it leads to anxiety and the subject feels like his brain is dieing and he starts eating food to keep his brain alive and he pleads the people in and around him to keep talking to him as he feels like he is losing his communication with them since the brain fails to link his thoughts and process them. The important thing is that if consciosness is something associated or produced by an emergent property of the brain how can people expereince the shutting down of the brain and yet be aware of it. How can one be awake and experience shutting down of the brain if awareness is something produced by the brain. How can something shut itself down and also be self aware of its state, there has to be a state or a process running inside it to represent such an event consuming a small power right? Normally scientific discoveries happen when things go wrong and not while everything is right. For example- to know the function of a gene we often switch it off to observe the effects in the organism and that's how we come to know about what the gene functions for the body. I believe there are some drugs or medicines which alter the EM signals of sleep, awake and dream states and patients who are under those medicinal treatment are more prone to such near death experiences. It is important for the doctors and people around the patient to be calm so that they can relax the patient from the emotional trauma. A perfect analogy might be a Von Neumann Machine in which each component as some processing power like the monitor and other input devices and a central processing unit called the CPU. A near death experience is like "Monitor going to sleep" while the CPU is running and is aware of the fact that the monitor has gone to sleep. A sleep state might be all the devices including the CPU going to sleep and a wakeful state is like both the monitor and CPU is running and you are aware of the processing occuring at the input and output devices which forms the tip of the consciousness(the part which we are normally aware of) and you are not aware of the processing which is occuring at the seat of the consciousness called as the subconscious. There are only two possibilities - Either this would mean that there is a subsystem with in the brain which is aware and forms the seat of consciousness while other parts of the brain shuts down when one is experiencing a Near death experience. Or this would mean that the whole brain shuts down and there is an another subsystem called as the mind seperate from the brain which is responsible for the seat of consciosness and other mental qualia like pain, fear, anxiety etc which is the hard problem or the binding problem in conscious beings. The two subsystems brain and mind may be made of different hardware platforms and there might even be a protocol for effective comuunication between the two systems. Philosophers have always wondered how can a material system like the brain can communicate or can interact with an immaterial system like the mind. What if the cosmos is made of two subsystems and there might be two realities and we might have to model those two realities to fully comprehend the universe and no wonder why the universe is a paradox. What if the scientific models and the scientific method of enquiry of the physical world are not sufficient to fully understand the universe. Will we be prepared to change and speculate on a different method of enquiry and develop falsifiable models and yet keep a check on pseudoscience and other fraudulents. I got this insight because I recently experienced and went through a similar thing. We often use this terminologies in the computer world Hibernation(computing) and Sleep mode. May be the brain might have peripheral systems inside it which processes information and also keeps a check on the power consumption, brain might be a super system administrator.

Its a false comparison those people won't give you a method to falsify their claim, they just claim it, they don't provide a method to repeat those voices again and hence they cannot be passed on, that's why its not real knowledge while I have given you a method to repeat those experiences again and that experience can be passed on therefore it constitutes knowledge because such knowledge is repeatable. They won't say that angels will visit only when we walk backwards or in right angles so that we can perform and falsify their claim. I had argued about this a year ago that this is not a hallucination but no one took it seriously and I expected it. The new discovery of Gospel of Judas says that it was Jesus himself who sent Judas Iscariot to bring the romans to his hiding place, it was God's plan and Jesus knew what was coming and only a divine man can dare to do such a thing knowing the consequences of it. He sacrificed himself to save the world for us. Judas didn't betrayed Jesus Christ, infact he was the only one who truly understood Jesus. Nothing is what it seems.

When God gave the Ten commandments to Moses it was only for the people who were jews and for people who will go on to inhabit a land mass called as Israel and form a nation. These laws should be strictly applied only in Isreal and a jew should follow this law even if he is inhabiting in a different part of the world and we should be secular enough to allow a jew to worship(not idol worship) his god and practice his religion and not oppose his views. Similarly this applies to other religions, I come from a nation where there are people who speak 18 official languages and follow seven major religions, we have hindu temples, muslim mosques and church cathedrals which are raised beside each other and people have co-existed happily for a generations of life time. So yes a certain amount of prejudice is justifyable but thoughts of extremism should not be entertained as everyone have the right to follow their own religion and their own views where ever they might be situated in the world.

It atleast doesn't make me intellectually dishonest since I have a rational empirically verifyable reason to believe in theism if not an evidence which can be shown to the sense organs. It atleast proves that some real knowledge can be passed on among the theists and I have atleast provided falsifiable theistic models just like the scientific models for those theists who are willing to worship him and think that he is deserved to be worshipped. You are unwilling to worship him and its quite fine, its quite fair but your challenge is huge because you have requested evidence which can be seen through the sense organs for a phenomena which happens beyond the sense organs in the subjective mind. You want me to bring such a phenomena to the scientific method of enquiry and your demand for such an evidence is like creationists who demand evidence for macroevolution with in a person's or a generations of life time for an event which is so rare and takes millions of years to occur. I am not backing away from your challenge as I have made a few claims whose effects on the physical world can be easily seen but it takes time and will to sacrifice one's life to go on meditating( along with yoga) for years to gain such a knowledge and to demonstrate them and therefore such a event is higly unpredictable. I cannot bring God in front of your eyes, you yourself have to communicate with him. I cannot easily disprove the existence of god for people who stick with the scientific method of enquiry with in a person's life time as such knowledge is highly unpredictable while it can be easily disproved if we are prepared to change and believe in a different method of enquiry. There is a sharp disconnect here, it is not about the evidence, it is about the belief on the methods used to test the hypothesis which disconnects me from you and there is no common ground for a purposeful argument. It atleast shows that all theists are not crackpots and will change their views once evidence has been shown to them and it shows that some religion do contain real knowledge and it is not completely true to say that it is a cancer to the society.

Unfortunately I'm undertaking medication in a hospital and I will respond to your post as soon as I get back my wellness. Posting from my cell phone.

In simple words a different set of models means a different set of possibilities in reality and we can see its effects on the physical world. Consciousness and Immortality - From ancient times we have pondered over the question as to why we should be aware of our own bodies, what purpose does consciousness serve. The thing is that we don't have to be aware of our bodies, we don't have to be subject to the constraints of space and time, the body has enough intelligence to survive on its own and will look for ways to reduce its entropy by itself. Having this knowledge means you can seperate yourself from your body and your brain and not suffer the effects on your body. We have looked for the fountain of youth to defy the process of ageing but Aryas wouldn't try to transform a mortal body into an immortal one instead they would simulate their consciousness outside of space and time and exist forever defying death. If strong AI can simulate my consciousness and make me run on a machine then again this knowledge will be disproved. Having a portal to communicate with the gods opens up endless possibilities, we can communicate with the rain gods and bring rain at places where people are suffering from heavy drought. You can imagine the possible uses of such a communication channel. This knowledge means that brain, mind and intelligence are different things and not one. We don't have to learn things instead we can just access or load such information on to our minds and will be able to speak new languages without even taking time to learn them since intelligence is viewed as a physical entity existing in its own realm. Having control over such light rays means we don't have to reduce entropy and can survive without eating for days since those light rays are responsible for self organisation in biological entities. It will take years of time and further research to demonstrate above claims and I can not do it all alone. You yourself will be transformed into something else in the process of falsfying it so it takes years of time. The important point is that these above knowledge can only be possible if the basic stuff of those God's light rays exists and I have presented a method in my previous post which addresses the heart of the matter and shows that those light rays exist and it can be tested and falsified. If neurologists can show those light rays on request and induce a feeling of presence of a personal god then this belief system will be disproved and we can say that man created god. Scientists often predict such advanced technology but they either think that such knowledge comes from extraterrestrial beings or from artificial intelligence and they don't realize the possibility that such supreme intelligence can come from god too and say God is dead, I think he is very much alive for now.

There are many extinct religions in this world whose practical knowledge have been lost over time because the religious sects failed to pass on their cultural ideas and doctrines to their future generations due to various other cultural influences on them or other natural causes. We can not rule out the possibility of an extinct civilization who might have been more advanced than us, who might have had a different approach in studying the natural world around them. The common attitude is that the ancient earth was a dark age and the picture we have in our minds are people following pseudoscience and other foolish practices and thinking that they were less intelligent than us and lacked any real knowledge. I think this attitude has to change as we discover and explore more about those civilizations and reconsider our position on such civilizations. There are many extinct civilizations like those and we do often find some new information or a new discovery about them every now and then and one such religious sect with whom I have developed some interest and researched is the ARYAN religion. It is the Aryas who discovered the Vedas and the Upanishads and what is left today is a few disorganized rituals and pseudoscientific practices in the name of Hinduism giving us a picture of horse feather stories and extreme view points hiding the actual truth from our eyes. Aryas were sun worshippers and to them sun is not just a star at the centre of the solar system it is also a personal god existing in every biological entity responsible for organisms intelligent behaviour and self organisation. (Note- I am not advocating Intelligent Design here and opposing evolution by NS since proponents of ID make baseless arguments against a well established body of evidence that already exists for evolution) Aryas have a complete different set of models and it has nothing to do with the scientific models and these models can be tested. They describe their personal god in detail and there are various yogic methods to test such a knowledge. One such method which I adopted was a set of breathing exercise called as Surya Namaskara. The link provides information about the sequence of steps that has to be performed. Since many people perform it for different reasons, some people in the west might perform it to keep themselves healthy and fit while our purpose is to actually communicate with him and take this very seriously so we need some additional preparation before performing it. We need to do it with the right frame of mind because the outcome of our experiment depends on how we approach it. So we need to assume that he exists and pray the following words in the beginning. There are many verses from the scripture and each verse can be tested and its validity can be empirically verified by subjective experiences. An example of such experiences can be found in books by a scholar named Devudu Narasimha Shastry who has extensively studied the Aryan culture. I have an english translation of one of his book named Mahabrahmana. Introduction Appendix Chapters61-65 Chapters66-70 (chapters 65 to 67 are important please read them.) So he should appear to us at some point in the same way as he has appeared across centuries of time and hence such a knowledge is repeatable and empirically verified. This is what happened after I performed it for almost one year so it should be performed under guidance and not mess up with the gods by performing it in a wrong way. The main argument I want to make is that where I do acknowledge the scientific method in discovering new real knowledge it is not the only method that exists to know the truth. So science will be nothing more but a religion if it suppresses other valid methods of knowledge enquiry and say that nothing real exists outside of science and suppress free thinking. If we have to take Cosmotheology seriously then according to one of its principle we need to be open to new conceptions of God and the cosmic order. How so? I have a strong intellectual reason to believe in theism so why don't science address this phenomena and see whether man created god or not instead of backing away from the challenge because even I want to enjoy my life and not abide by the word of God. I have consistently criticized people who oppose evolution by natural selection and I have also attacked scholars who mix religion and science and try to interpret scientific models in terms of religion in other threads. The universe indeed seems to be a paradox and more we have explored it the more is the evidence that it defies our logical minds and it is appearing in different ways depending on the choice of method we are adopting to measure it.

A possible universal definition of God might come from Cosmotheology avoiding the conflicts existing in traditional religions. I would like to stick with the Immanuel Kant's definition of Cosmotheology The theory is this that every living being is inherently connected with the cosmic universe. There is a whole new spectrum of light having some weird properties which is the main cause for the existence of this universe and it is this same spectrum of light existing in every living thing is responsible for the survival and the intelligent behaviours exhibited by such entities. So this new light having weird geometry is called as God. This takes a Top-bottom approach of the cosmos and avoids the reductionist approach. The claim is that this single entity(new light) is responsible for simulating those spiritual experiences of Jesus, Allah, Yahweh or what ever among different cultures of people. So if in some way neurologists show that those spiritual experiences are simulated by the brain and establish that their Gods only exists in their minds indicating that Man created God then the above theory will be disproved and intellectually honest theists will be obliged to change their views and belief systems on submission of such an evidence. Even religion evolves over the years and paradigm shifts do happen it is not stringent as it was in the past. Frank Parkinson on cosmotheology We indeed have a conflict over the definition of intellectuall honesty. Theists have a strong reason for holding a theistic view and the same is for the atheists. Theists believe in theism because of the personal encounters that they have with god and considerably affects his conduct and his thought process. True religions arise in this way from a small group of handful people who have some real consistent knowledge about the gods, I don't think it is a crap. So assuming that intellectually honest theists are equivalent to atheists is quite unfair, there is a distinction between the two and we can draw clear logical line between those two. No, I don't believe in any gods unless I see them for myself therefore neither I believe in Jesus nor I believe in Buddha but I doesn't claim that they do not exist since I don't have enough knowledge about them. We can certainly test that hypothesis there are certain religious systems in which the knowledge of the gods are accessible and they have described him with full detail to every inch of it. They are not talking about unicorns or horse feathers and its not crap. So if we could reproduce those experiences in our labs then those belief systems will be destroyed. I doesn't want to defend any religious claims. I want to test those belief systems and christianity is not the only religion of the world so your consistent premise that those claims have been tested again and again is not quite right since there are other more powerful knowledge models in other religions which have to be tested yet.

That doesn't prove that god is in their brain unless you reproduce those experiences on request. I know a few things about gods they don't appear to you unless you surrender to them so obviously Buddha won't appear to me when I have completely surendered myself to Jesus and worshipping only him. Its too soon to come to your logical conclusion when an alternative interpretation exists and therefore there is a necessity to reproduce those experiences and test it for ourselves. An intellectually honest theist should change his belief system when evidence is provided to him. Now given my specific characteristics of god if you can induce a feeling of presence of this god in my brain having those same specific characteristics I will be obliged to change my belief system when it is put to test. That is what I want the scientific community to do to test that working hypothesis, if we can some how reproduce those experiences on request then it will be a great evidence that they are all man made. I agree that science has tested most of the religious claims again and again and found nothing but I want science to test this particular hypothesis because its results might have some strange outcomes. Then those advocating that are not true Christians, those teachings are from radical fundamentalists and extremists who misinterpret the scriptures and completely misunderstand it. No word of God advocate such extreme view and I am very much happy to put my belief system for a lab test.

I cannot universally define the term 'God' but what I can do is that I can specifically define the concept of God to every inch of it with in a group of people whose knowledge of God is consistent, specific and completely coherent. By consistent I mean God is experienced as a person and it is the same person who will always appear in the experience every time one has it. His characteristics are specific, it doesn't vary from one experience to another experience between different persons, he always appears the same way across centuries of time. These experiences are coherent, they are not random and the data can be passed on from generation to generation which leads to increase in knowledge in a person. It is this kind of knowledge which will go on to produce many of the major religious belief systems in the world which some might call it a cancer in their minds so if in some way neurologists can reproduce those similar experiences at request it would convince the theists that their great great almighty or the personal god is nothing but a hallucination occuring in their Brains. In simple words given this specific knowledge about the personal god can they really reproduce the same experience having those specific characteristics of God on request. If they can then the existence of God is disproved and it would convince the theists to change their view and this would be the end of religion. Then it should be accepted that those individuals who claim that Man created God are basing those claims on blind faith with out any evidence what so ever and it would put them on the same pool as a theist who goes by faith rather than empirical evidence. Also science should address this phenomena and provide a model or an explanation for these spiritual experiences and not back away from it. The end result on whether science can model such experiences or not might go on to decide on the existence of god. Such a model do serve some purpose it will radically change the worldview of billions of people or it will give us some insights to explore a all new world.

I recently watched the documentary series "Through The Worm Hole with Morgan Freeman" in Science Discovery Channel. One interesting thing I found was the work of Dr.Michael Persinger and his God Helmet. If out of body experiences can be induced on people at request whenever we desire to have it then if in someway get to know those minute complex stimulations of the temporal lobes in the brain which induce the experience of a personal god then it will be proved beyond doubt that "Man created God" rather than the other way around. The point is people who claim that Man created God should back up their claim with an evidence showing that the experience of a personal god is no more than just a mere hallucination occuring at the temporal lobe of the brain rather than taking up the logical default position and dismissing the existence of God outside of science straight away. The attitude has to change that the existence of God can be disproved and science shouldn't back away saying that the burden of proof is on people who claim that he exists. Scientists should take this field seriously just the same way how they take smashing atoms in particle accelerators seriously looking for truth and testing their models. If neuropsychologists can repeatedly induce feelings or experiences of a personal god whose body is covered with gems and pearls eminating blue and red radiant light out of it irrespective of time and place then the theists should have to change their views and put their belief systems to the test. What if we could put the God helmet on Pope and induce a feeling of presence of god in him? On the contrary if science fails and if there is a method which repeatedly allows one to expereince and communicate with a personal god at some point in time then it must be assumed that our reductionist approach is wrong and that there is something real outside of science. Its a great challenge on us and lets put our belief systems to test and evade blind faith. Wiki - God_helmet and the Discussions Page Neurotheology with god in mind This is your Brain on God

This paper might answer all your queries about Quantum Computers. What is Quantum Computation? I haven't seen a quantum computer but I'm sure there are few people on SFN who might have seen it in their universities and will be able to provide more insights into it.

I come from a place where these caste systems prevailed for thousands of years in the past and it is still in existence even today and I suspect this common system will continue to prevail in the near future and will remain as an integral part of hindu society. It is true that these castes also called as varnas had specific professional roles in their society and they had to practice only those duties and professions. It is also true that they had to mate with individuals with in their caste i.e of the same kind. The opposite sex didn't had too many choices to make since it was pre-determined priorly at a very young age as to who her mate is and therefore sexual selection was quite complex which involved lots of factors and played a huge part in shaping those choices. Even though this kind of rules were made for various religious reasons, one can speak in evolutionary terms and it makes some sense when one considers the success of this system which ensures that genes and memes(ideas) are passed on to future generations with high fidelity Once humans started settling around fertile lands developing farming and taming of cattle which was so different from their nomadic behaviour our cultural evolution kicked in and it started shaping our genomes and removed the immense pressures on Natural selection to find soultions to emerging problems. So though forcing individuals to mate with in their caste reduces diversity and variety of existing genotypes which are so vital for natural selection during times of environmental stress and crisis since those populations which provide raw materials in the form of variety to natural selection are more likely to come out of those crisis evolving as much better individuals however with the advent of cultural evolution these selection pressures during the times of environmental stress were wiped out by stable communal systems. The Ksatriyas protected the fertile lands from the foreign enemy, the Vaishyas provided the economic strength for import of new goods, the shudras were workers who helped all other varnas and finally the Brahmanas would pray to gods of nature for the welfare of the whole community, they used to do perform rituals to please the gods and they would bring rain even during times of extreme drought. In this way all the four varnas divided their societal tasks helping each other for the good of their own caste and there by ensuring that their genes are passed on to their progeny. Since all the four castes very necessary for a stable system it was very important that the individuals in the respective castes proliferated so that they meet the needs of the society on the whole and therefore cultural evolution introduced emotional barriers of reproduction between the caste systems instead of the physical barriers which would been introduced if natural selection was the only force shaping human beings. These reproductional barriers had to be introduced to prevent the wastage of gametes since humans spend most of their energy in developing a progeny and since the costs are too high there had to be a way to ensure that the developed progeny favoured the stability of the communal system rather than impeding its success. So individuals would perform their tasks more efficiently if they had two dominant genes in them instead of one dominant and one recessive gene which would fail to express its trait to its full potential. Therefore forcing individuals to mate with in their caste was a form of ancient genetic engineering allowing dominant genes of a specific trait to be more likely passed on to next generation increasing the reproductive success of the community on the whole. Therefore those mutations which favoured the increase in development of muscles in ksatriyas and those mutations which favoured the development of neurons and its differentiation in Brahmans might have got selected and accumulated over time but this doesn't in any way make the ksatriyas more stronger and Brahmans being more smarter than other members of the castes. One will become smart and strong by his own efforts, interests and other environmental and nurture factors. A Brahmin by birth will not be hard-wired with thousands of verses and mantras from the religious texts, they have to practice and memorize them, similarly a ksatriya by birth will not be knowing all the art of fighting in the battle field. Its just their bodies will favour them in their interests and desires to learn those tasks. History has shown us that there were many ksatriyas who went on to become Brahmans by achieving Brahmanahood by one'e own shear hard work and efforts while Brahmans by birth who had to achieve Brahmanahood failed to achieve it and remained as only jati(namesake) Brahmans and not as true Brahmans. So no where it says that intelligence is inheritable. Some genes might favour the process of learning and developing intelligence but it doesn't in any way make the individual more smarter than other individuals and the same holds for Ksatriyas too. The Distinctions and divisions of castes which prevailed during those times can be found in the Yajnvalkya smriti text, chapter IV, pg 184 -221. I have uploaded this chapter to google docs. We can better understand the dynamics of those caste systems and their duties by studying this text which forms the basis foundation for hinduism.

I often hear about unemployment and discouragement towards outsourcing of jobs from random people in US whom I occasionally meet in IRC. There is often a common strong voice lifted against jobs going overseas and most of them are looking out for jobs. While some display anger others say that people should be recruited based on their meritocracy. So someone had to pull the breaks on companies outsourcing jobs outside and it came at the right time, a bill by congressman Tim Bishop which targets to put the breaks on relocation of call center workplaces to the more cheaper overseas locations. Will this be enough to tackle the increase in unemployment rate or whether more outside measures has to be taken like increasing the standards of the educational system? Does this mean that US will adopt more protectionist measures in the future? Is it a good move, would you back the party which will claim to ensure that this bill will be amended as a law in the coming next year elections? What do you guys think and how the global world would react to this? The Anti-Outsourcing Bill was introduced in the house on Dec 21. The Official Bill can be found here. <reason for edit: typed as angers instead of anger>

The Beginners guide to Quantum Mechanics by Alastair I.M Rae and Modern Physics by Moyer, Moses and Serway are some of the good books to start with the basics of QM.

Monotheism - belief in one god, Panthesim - nature is god, Panentheism - god is in everything, polytheism all these school of thoughts comes under the umbrella of mysticism and they are inseperable from it. Sankara, the founder of Advaita himself in many of his works has glorified the gods with poems and verses. Advaita doesn't discard the existence of gods, all it says is that the universe is one which is called as the 'Brahman' or the Unity and it is the only eternal truth, the truth about the multiplicity is not an eternal truth but it is very much true and it has an empirical existence. This is the view that all gods are one who is the personal god. Sankara is saying that this multiplicity of gods, the world, and the personal god is true temporarily. The eternal truth is that there is only entity which is non-dual i.e without an another. You are wrong or either you have misunderstood it. Mysticism is not the death of gods infact it uphelds their existence. Mystics are not religious but that doesn't mean they deny the existence of gods. You seem too optimistic here but I'm not so excited. Mysticism creates more problems than it solves. I'm afraid such a coherent interpretation does not exist and we don't know whether the truth is one and our hope of refuting to only one interpretation may never be realized. What about the Abrahamic God? What about the gods of the Greeks? Do Gnostics of the christians, sufis and fakirs of the muslim, sages of the Aryas, shamans, the native americans, mayans, the egyptians all speak of the one truth? They have their own gods, their own rituals and their own traditions and practices. How does it provide a coherent interpretation? On what basis they fall and doesn't fall under the umbrella of mysticism? what's so special about the god of schroedinger or sunya of the buddhists so much that we have to give them more credence and take it seriously. If you think that we have to take them seriously just because it comes from the mouth of intelligent people and if that's how you define mysticism then its not mysticism at all. Why is that mysticism should be logically consistent to the rational mind? Its too much of a narrow view upon what mysticism is. This is the reason why I don't get into discussions like these, I prefer to remain silent and investigate on what the truth is rather than trying to give a rational logically consistent coherent interpretation on mysticism.