Kreaken

This is an interesting question. I am under the impression that raising ruminant cattle for meat is a great way to turn inedible cellulose into a nutrient-concentrated, palatable meat product. The fact that the land might be overall better used (more caloric yield) by growing a certain crop instead might mean that overtime meat might become a rarity once again once the population reaches a certain point. Also, is Salatin's method unique in that it actually builds topsoil? Is crop rotation in conventional agriculture just a way to prolong a piece of land before inevitable exhaustion, or does it also have potential for rebuilding valuable topsoil? Connecting the two ideas, if agriculture eventually trumps over meat production via grazing, we might just end up screwing ourselves unless a viable way is generated to reverse topsoil loss. Great discussion.

I am really grateful for the discussion that has been sparked. Tripolation, your hands-on experience and knowledgeable background represent a valuable perspective. It makes me realize that a real issue is that people are generally just unaware of the realities behind things like crop yield, land conservation, farming methods, etc... I have only been exposed to the point of view that, as you mentioned, demonizes 'conventional agriculture' as if it were the cause of: the planets deterioration, our nutritional deficiencies, the increased onset of diseases and disorders, etc... I want to agree with Lemur here and say that organic/non-organic in itself should be a way to classify the ideology behind any given agricultural act, lending to the fact that any given farm could choose to employ methods from both worlds where there may be a rift as (ignorant?) consumer demands seem to be increasing towards things that are traditional/organic, despite there being many benefits to modern conventional farming. What are the actual objective pros/cons of each method? The glamor behind organic food seems to be that it 'solves the issues' we have been (I want to say scared into) told can result in harmful effects on our health and planet. The problem I have had in doing my own searching into the matter is that it can be hard to interpret all the controversy and conflicting idealism. Am I really facing threatening levels of harmful synthetic/organic chemicals when adding a food item such as a 'conventionally' grown bell pepper (one of the supposedly 'dirty' vegetables) to my diet? How about after a lifetime of regular consumption? Is there a tangible nutritional benefit to choosing a truly grass-fed, free-range [re: expensive] steak over a cheaper one that came from the fully-demonized factory farms? Ridiculed for having unstable health conditions for the animals/workers, animal factory farming has been portrayed as only a 'profit-driven' enterprise where all cuttable corners are cut to net the most profit often at the expense of the consumer. It is automatically assumed that this results in a less healthy meal in the end, so where is the non-biased research that shows otherwise? Have we some proof that supports the nutritional or environmental benefits of what is unnatural - i.e. have a beef steer sit in his own filth for its life eating feed that it may not be suitable to digest correctly - meat production (with all of the obvious ethical arguments aside for the moment). Is it safe to assume that eating an unhealthy animal is bad for you? Is it true (I'd love your thoughts on this Tripolation) that a cow's stomach has a hard time digesting all that grain given the grass-loving nature of their rumen bacteria? The overall question for me regards what modern progressive food science is aiming for. With the structure of research these days I would be surprised to hear that there is funding for agricultural technology/methodology that comes from anyone other than an agricultural giant that has (intrinsically) higher profits in mind. The corporate model-run world makes people uneasy, hence all the fear and confusion/misinformation if you ask me. I am really curious what thoughts are on the Weston A Price Foundation who claim that today's foods are less nutrient-dense than they were in the past, and that a properly-raised animal results in health-promoting meals. I enjoyed good health in the 2 or so years that I ate mostly from a chapter that gets its meat/dairy/eggs from these 'different' farming methods. People like Joel Salatin (mentioned in my previous post) seem to have their head on pretty straight promoting his form of sustainable agriculture at Polyface farms. Does anyone (another one for you Trip, heh) know whether he really revolutionized anything? You mentioned that most if not all farmers use crop rotation and regeneration in a similar matter, is Salatin's method the same or perhaps more/less refined? Again I really appreciate the comments, I obviously have tons of questions on these matters, though I will stop here before this wall of text gets any bigger Edit: Lemur, you make some great points there regarding genetic modifications. One of the big issues (always mentioned alongside the 'food-propaganda') that has been exposed to an extent is the problems modern farmers are having coping with the debt-incurring model of adopting these new crops, let alone all of the speculation abound regarding the actual safety/danger involved in scuttling this newly developed technology into the food supply.

I would like to revive this discussion as I find this topic very interesting and relevant to the times. I will say that a large portion of the issue involving agriculture (and many other issues for that matter) resides in the dichotomy that is proposed. The article posted previously (Urban Myths of Organic Farming) was an interesting read. Although the first half seemed fairly weak/semi-biased, there were some valid points made towards the end in regards to the failures of standard organic practices in comparison to decently managed conventional farming practices. I do recommend that anyone read it for themselves. My proposal is that we consider a type of farming that is different then both in that it utilizes a combination of crop and animal rotation in a manner that actually builds topsoil as opposed to eroding/depleting it, all while producing a good amount of product at the end of the day. I just found and scanned through this link recently and it seems fairly informative about how complex this often simplified dilemma is: http://www.jclandtrust.org/grazing.php Notice towards the bottom there are additional links for further education. Joel Salatin is sort of famous by now for his use of these methods on the 'polyface farms', and has become a sort of poster boy for the more modern 'nutrient-dense, properly-raised foods'. The ecosystem-rebuilding effects are certainly a great, if not necessary given our likely future, bonus! I'd like to add that my main interest in these matters is the nutrient value of the food I eat. What really is the difference between a grass-fed beef serving and a grain-fed, and all the in-between varieties (half/half, grass-fed and grain-finished, etc...)? As someone mentioned earlier, what is the real difference between a GM stalk of corn and a 'natural/organic' and a standard 'conventional' one for that matter? There is tons of misinformation out there regarding good diet that it doesn't surprise me that much of these questions remain unanswered. This is my first post in these forums so I suppose a short introduction is in order. I am currently a senior undergraduate at UCF, Florida with a degree in I.S. - Nanoscience and minors in both Chemistry and Micro/Molecular Biology. I have been doing personal 'homework' on health/nutrition/fitness for years and am currently considering getting into a related career involving nutritional biochemistry or something similar. I have been through several self-experiments and am currently over 2 years into eating a sort of hybrid between the Weston A Price diet with a Paleo twist to it. This means that, as an undergrad, I have paid for premium grass-fed meats and mostly organic vegetables with a good amount of saturated fat from things like coconut, avocado, grass-fed butter, etc... So that's where I'm coming from when I say I really want to hear what people think about these things.