Phi for All

To me, this is living righteously, not worrying about being caught in a lie simply because you don't tell them. A worthy, ethical goal, imo.

I would hope that when industry is approved for large scale production, they'll be working very hard to offer a product that tastes and has at least as good a texture as the meat you eat now. I see no reason why they couldn't eventually make every steak taste like US Prime. I'm pretty sure, at least in the beginning, steaks and burgers will not be as common commercially as stew meats and other uses where the meat is in a blended dish. So we keep the pigs and grow the beef ourselves. We'd still save acres and acres and cut slaughterhouses by more than half. I would have thought of this sooner but I spent an hour gibbering in the fetal position when you mentioned taking my bacon away.

This is spot on, imo, Lying is an advanced intelligence event. When kids start lying, it's a sign that they're projecting themselves into the future, and realizing that the truth could get them in trouble at a later date. It's a good sign because it's signaling that this child is starting to plan ahead, knowing that his actions now have an affect on him in the future. Lying has it's place in our society, and shouldn't be taken away as a tool altogether. As others have shown, lies can be necessary and beneficial. Most aren't though, and that's why each situation needs to be examined. I think the key ethically is what you're willing to sacrifice if your lie is found out. In the case of how a dress makes your wife look, the consequences are some hurt feelings, but most likely compassionate understanding will turn it into a non-issue. But if your lie involves important decisions, or may hurt someone while it saves you, can you live with the consequences whether you're found out or not? As Greg H. mentions, we want to be thought of as ethical people. But the reality is that we often go too fast in our cars, endangering others as well as ourselves, and we sometimes take a bit more than our share, and we even take advantage of our fellow humans and call it competitive spirit or market economy or good horse-trading. In general, my conclusion is that being duplicitous about important things is too hard and involves too much brain damage; I'm too dumb to lie and too lazy to steal.

I'm always open to criticism, but I have to say it's really strange to have you join and make this your first post, all on the same day. I mean, what are you basing this on, the one thread you were reading when you responded? This is a pretty harsh generalization for a day-old member. Everything and everyone, all the time? Really?

I think some people see any kind of suppression as an abridgment of their rights, even when what's being suppressed is someone's "right" to be a dick on a science discussion forum. And I hardly feel ashamed setting rules and then abiding by them, expecting others who join to do so as well. There's lots of places on the webz you can go that let you say anything you want. You just have to expect a lower calibre of conversation.

Always tell the truth, unless the consequences for a lie are acceptable to all concerned. ... unless a politician is holding your baby.

Don't taze me, Moon!

Many years ago, I was leaving a concert, trying to get out of the parking lot full of people also trying to get out. The car parked in front of me (facing the same direction) had his engine and lights on, so I was waiting for him to pull out so I didn't have to back up. When he missed several opportunities to move, I got out of my car, went up to his window and said, "Hey pal, are you going to move or do I need to back up?" I didn't say it threateningly, but I'm a big guy. Even so, I was shocked at the fear in his eye as he told me he'd move right away. My date pointed out that it was my use of the familiar "pal" that probably made it sound like a sarcastic threat. I didn't mean it that way, I was actually wanting the exact opposite, but by using a term that was overly familiar for someone I barely knew, it came off badly. I guess I'm lucky the guy wasn't a karate instructor or I would have been very unpleasantly surprised. Now where did I put that folder of Teletubby avatars?

Aren't you making my point here? Ignorance would leave you without the data to make informed decisions, like how safe is safe enough. Only by removing ignorance do you get the kind of information you need, information that only the most intelligent species could ever benefit from. If I find a home for my family, I want to know as much as I can about it so I can take appropriate measures for safety. I know I can't protect them from everything, but removing ignorance so I can know as much about my home as possible gives me the best chance to protect them. If I know there's a high school nearby, I might put some extra locks on the doors and windows. If there are coyotes in the area, I'll be extra vigilant about when I let my small dog outside. It's not about being as safe as possible all the time, it's about knowing when it's appropriate to take different measures to increase safety. This seems so basic to me. If you don't know there's angry bees in the box, you're most likely going to do what you normally do with boxes. I didn't understand this. Please reiterate. Let's further assume there's no way for me to get my family offplanet. And that it will mean total destruction, no chance of weathering it out underground and helping the species survive. We're all going to die, and I'm the only one who knows it. How much time is left? I'm assuming not much, since more time might mean at least a chance of escape. If it's a matter of weeks, I'd tell my family and friends, at least the ones who feel as I do about ignorance. Sell off some assets and book a world cruise with the folks I love best. Then I'd proceed to absorb all the beauty and love and laughter Earth has to offer before it all goes away. Without that knowledge, I'd otherwise be doing too much cleaning and lawn mowing and not making enough opportunities for intelligent bliss. We know sound was made because that's what happens when energy is released in this way. There's nothing else in reality that suggests it would be any different if nobody was there.

The tree falling in the forest still creates the sensory stimulation that receptors like ears and eyes and noses can detect, even if those detectors aren't present. The molecules that surround an object that find their way into your nose so you can detect them with your olfactory sense don't exist only in your consciousness, they're really there. If heat doesn't exist but requires a tactile element in order to be felt, why does non-conscious iron react to heat?

The key is mass production. The first of any product is always hideously expensive, because all the startup, R&D and manufacturing costs are totaled against that first burger. And more research can help lower the costs further. Imagine using half the land we use now for livestock grazing and habitation, and instead have large scale cultured meat farms that can eventually grow you a perfect filet that was never stalked, hunted or slaughtered, perhaps with other engineered benefits that might even tempt EdEarl to buy some steak knives. You've removed most of my objections, so why not? The Runner would probably be too stringy though, and I'm not into anything bloated. Perhaps this could be used to reduce consumption of tiger penises and shark fins. If you really want to absorb the power from your food, how about some POTUS chops or perhaps Queen Elizabeth London Broil? Or maybe we go for the vendetta angle. Roast Leg of Insurance Salesman might be especially satisfying after your claim gets denied. Braised Tongue of Smart-Mouthed Co-Worker would be a delicacy. I think "Eat me!" would be a good slogan for my new cultured human meat company.

We're in a phase globally where our populations require us to adopt these procedures. I don't like them but they're necessary if we want the best protein sources. Being able to grow our own meat will be a huge step towards sustainable methods, but I also wonder how long species like cows and pigs will be around without us to husband them.

Absolutely not! Growing meat will eventually remove the major concerns of keeping livestock for consumption, and hopefully some day allow us to eat only the best tasting meats free of additives and process parts. In addition, this will allow us to take some high-quality protein with us into space.

I myself have gotten them. It harms the respectability of those of us who truly are Nigerian princes with large sums of money to bring to your country if only I could find a helpful citizen to help me escape oppression and share in my good fortune.

! Moderator Note Off-topic hijack posts split to here.

Is this for a homework assignment?

It's always good to hear some sweet in the Suggestions, Comments and Support section. Thanks to all for spending your time here, collaborating and discussing and helping to build this learning community. Thanks Cap'n, Sayonara and dave for the extra energy that keeps us in perpetual motion and half a step ahead of the IAEA. Thanks, hypervalent_iodine, for even considering my suggestion to pose for the SFN calendar in your lab coat. And thanks, Lightmeow, your support and contributions.

Wow. The censors have struck. Tremble, all ye mortals. For someone who's signature objects to no-discussion "codes", your style is very preachy, prohibiting the discussion you claim to want. People keep asking you for more than just your opinion, and you're ignoring them. You state things as fact yet have nothing convincing to support them. If you're asked to leave here, it will be for that, not because you're being censored.

! Moderator Note This is preaching, not an opening post for discussion. It can be assumed that anyone who disagrees with what you claim here will just get more of the same proselytizing. Preaching is against the rules you agreed to when you joined. Please formulate thread openers to give an opportunity for productive discussion. This style is more suited to blogging. Thread closed.

You're taking your own metaphor too literally. By defining "gods" as anyone/anything we have great adoration for, or follow (figuratively, as in "maintain an avid interest in") closely, you've removed any real meaning the word has. Many of my more religious family members would be greatly offended at your attempt to conflate religious figures with entertainment figures. Of course, the Catholics have had trading cards for the saints for years, but I think even they would draw the line at calling Felix Hernandez a god.

I'm completely serious. We're the only species with a chance of making it off planet, and I think we'll only invest in space exploration if the pressure to do so outweighs the expense. If we have more to live for, perhaps we'll respect life more. Again, education seems to be the key to a more informed, effective and collaborative human population capable of exploiting their full potential.

Agreed. All part of my Master Plan. And step one is doing this: Living young for a long time would suck without an education. We'll need smart people to get us off planet.

! Moderator Note Closed, on the authority of the Department of Redundancy Department.

! Moderator Note I know you'll be good for goodness' sake and start your own thread if you want to continue a discussion on the shortcomings of BCS theory. Stocking. Coal. Bad.

Trains require a conductor. Evolution doesn't have one. Your conductor seems busy deceiving people with faked fossils.