Phi for All

Many posters in Speculations, in my experience, want to skip over all the hard study and rigorous methodology normally found in physics and throw out what seems intuitive to them. In essence, they want to leap to unsupported conclusions without building a proper foundation for their ideas. This causes others to reply with admonishments and questions leading them back to firmer ground. Saying nothing lends a tacit approval that most science-minded folks can't tolerate, so views and replies in Speculations are often much higher than other sections. Correcting mistakes (aka, beating the living daylights out of each other) is a favor done that one often doesn't appreciate until later. My daughter's piano teacher jumps in often to correct mistakes in her playing. As he puts it, why practice a piece the wrong way? It does nothing to diminish my daughter's love of playing piano since she ultimately likes playing correctly.

Bear with me here. Some time ago, I noticed that an awful lot of people like to turn their problems into other people's problems. People litter because they don't want trash in their car. That's their problem, and they could easily and responsibly take care of it in a trash can, but instead they toss it out the window. Now it's our problem. Or someone will suddenly remember they have to get off the highway at THIS exit, and rather than take responsibility and take the exit after THIS one and work their way back, they turn their problem into other people's problem by swerving over three lanes and risking lives to save some minutes and mileage and avoid their problem. Once I started thinking of it this way, I saw how prolific it was. I also saw people taking responsibility and doing the right thing, and I started monitoring my own actions accordingly. I believe we should take care of our own problems and not push them off onto others, and I made a conscious effort to ensure I do this. I don't leave shopping carts in parking spaces, I don't blow leaves onto neighbor's lawns, and if I knock something over I put it back where it was. And I never, ever throw trash on the ground. We make choices like this all the time about various things, and we choose to believe in them and I think it does affect our lives. What we choose to believe in is important, and hopefully what we choose helps others and isn't just completely self-serving.

One phenomena that might explain it is Attitude Polarization. Look at all the 9000+ sects of Christianity. Each is exposed to the same documents and history of their main religion, yet each takes this ambiguous evidence as supporting their own way of believing in their god. And further, they become angry when their own interpretation isn't shared by another sect. Old joke, but appropriate here: I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. Me: "Don't do it!" Him: "Nobody loves me." Me: "God loves you. Do you believe in God?" Him: "Yes." Me: "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" Him: "A Christian." Me: "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" Him: "Protestant." Me: "Me, too! What franchise?" Him: "Baptist." Me: "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" Him: "Northern Baptist." Me: "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?" Him: "Northern Conservative Baptist." Me: "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." Me: "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" Him: "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." Me: "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

! Moderator Note I'm asking you both to grow up and stop baiting each other. This is getting ridiculous. Stick to the science and leave the sniping for the playground.

Well, you were the one who asked if anyone was being treated badly because of their beliefs. Many are, but not by atheists, only their fellow theists. AFAIK, no atheists are trying to stop anyone from believing what they want to, they just want religious beliefs to stop spilling over into secular life where it affects everyone in the culture.

I don't espouse the "Ignorance is bliss" approach. I'm more of an "Informed decisions require knowledge" kind of guy. Virtually every religion has its fundamentalists, and they often treat those of other religions, even those from different sects of their own, very badly. Even fatally. And it's very often those fundamentalists that have the devotion and fanaticism to rise into power within their own hierarchies and their secular governments.

Please give some indications that you understand the questions, and show us what work you've done so far on each question. Teachers don't want sites like ours giving out answers without trying to help you understand the questions.

In this section, we need you to show what you've got so far, so we can help guide you to the answers rather than giving them to you.

! Moderator Note Untrue. Post #44 was the reaction. ! Moderator Note This IS a personal attack. Please take a breath, adjust your attitude, STOP responding to modnotes and please get back on topic.

! Moderator Note This is science, people. Check your egos at the door. Cultural concepts, personal bias and assumptions should not be part of a scientific discussion. Answering questions and supplying evidence for assertions is mandatory in this section. If you have a problem with a moderator note, please use the Report Post function rather than taking the discussion off-topic.

Is it really a debate if someone says, "The Earth is flat, and the sun and all the planets revolve around it", and I say, "That's completely untrue, you have no idea what you're talking about"? Just because ideas expressed oppose each other, that doesn't really satisfy the definition of a debate. Formal understanding on both sides is required. Complete misunderstanding, obfuscation and intellectual dishonesty vs science doesn't qualify, imo.

! Moderator Note Attacking an idea is NOT an attack on the person who has it. There is no rules violation here. Your explanations have not been backed up properly, as has been pointed out. This creates confusion, which is the definition of "mumbo jumbo".

Not to some people. Not to some people. The list is endless. Are you saying, "Let everyone believe what they will" or are you saying, "Stop treating people badly if they don't believe the way you do"?

Not at all. Does the ad read, "Bananotech.com: Solutions For The Big, Hard Questions"?

Because as soon as you try to extract any work out of the system, it crawls to a halt.

Interesting, up until reality becomes a god. Why? Reality doesn't need a supernatural component, it just needs to acknowledge that we don't know everything yet. When we do know something we previously didn't, it's natural and explainable. Track record, experience, reliable history, these are things to trust in people, but not to put unwavering faith in. People make mistakes, even if they've always been reliable and loyal. Trust, unlike faith, accounts for this, acknowledges that belief shouldn't ever be 100%, no matter what the spin-priests say. I don't mind hope at all. There are plenty of things I hope are true, but I don't even trust them to be true, much less have faith they are. But it bothers me greatly when people talk about how strong their faith in God is, especially when they pass that kind of extreme hope on to their children, or convince themselves that those who don't have the same kind of faith are less than deserving, less than worthy, less than human even.

I'm not upset at all. In fact, what I'm hearing seems to confirm that faith is based not on happiness or sadness but more on a "gut feeling", a visceral emotional reaction that has little to do with rational thought. So why is belief based on intuition often considered stronger than belief based on experience and reason? Do so many people consider their "gut feelings" to be stronger than a more reasoned approach?

OK, I can get behind that. God is a mechanism, a construct that allows people to cope with what they don't understand yet. But if this is the case, why assign God the role of creator? Isn't that like making up an imaginary friend and then giving him credit for making the wind blow? Science is not the religion of God. Science considers God to be supernatural, since God chooses to be unobservable by scientific means. Science attempts to explain natural phenomena, so the supernatural is simply ignored until such time it manifests itself into something testable. You have a very preachy style that doesn't help much in a discussion. I get the feeling you have all these canned answers that allow you to ignore what everyone else involved is saying. Nothing personal, just an observation about your arguments.

You know, I tried to set some parameters for this thread so it wouldn't just be more arguing about religion-yes/religion-no. I tried to offer definitions that would help posters reply to the specific topic I wanted to discuss. I really wanted to separate faith from other forms of belief and examine why so many people consider it to be the strongest form of belief. tar, I mean no disrespect, but your style makes it difficult to pinpoint your arguments in a discussion like this. I'm certainly not asking you to bow out, but I would really appreciate it if you could be more focused and precise about your answers. I get the feeling you want to object when you feel faith is being attacked, but like many others, you have nothing tangible to argue so you start rambling about robots and magic and how brain cells grow in an infant. You get so passionate about your objections that you seem to forget what we're discussing and you just hop from one idea to another as it occurs to you. It also seems clear that you realize what you're doing, because you sign off so many posts with your regards, and then proceed to add even more obfuscation in postscript. To me, this is a sign that you realize your answer will inevitably confuse, so you tack on what you think will help clarify, not realizing that at this point your readers have often given up after trying in vain to pluck some clear arguments out of what you've written. Again, this isn't about you personally, it's about your style of argument. It has nothing to do with whether you're a theist or an atheist (though, like Iggy, I've known for some time that you're not the atheist you've claimed to be on so many occasions). I'm just telling you that it gets very tedious trying to separate the chaff from the wheat when reading your replies. Sorry if this seems harsh. I just wanted to know why faith, with only feelings as a foundation, often overrides trust, with a foundation of experience and evidence, in the minds of religious followers. I would love to have you shoot down my arguments, but would really appreciate it if you would use a sniper rifle instead of a shotgun.

Ads like these are driven by the individual. I was researching CRM applications for a client recently and now that's all I see in the ad spaces, links to all the CRM services I checked out. So I suspect michel has been checking out the dark side. Perhaps calculating the age of the Earth from all the people mentioned in Genesis?

Actually, if it came out the other end, that would mean he did it for a reason. Snot is more of an non-conscious response. But props for the funny.

I think God exists but only in the imagination of people who want comprehensive intervention to overcome circumstances beyond their own control. Our parents provide this to an extent when we're young so it's easier to look for it elsewhere when we're older. When the god fails to intervene in dire circumstances, we question why it fails in the role our parents played so lovingly.

Seriously, that was not a rationale. It's too evasive to be an underlying principle. A big part of the reason I wanted faith to be defined as a belief different from other forms of belief is to examine why people hold it so sacred, and claim it's strong when it's full of this kind of deception and equivocation. It just seems like there's nothing strong about it, and people know that, deep down inside, but pretend it's some kind of special connection that those who question it can't understand.

If knives are a big part of your zombie plan, you're already dead.

Thank you, I couldn't have said it better. That's exactly how I view those who claim to 100% believe in the supernatural.