Phi for All

There's a difference between examining a subjective experience and rejecting subjectivity in the methodology of that examination. We can study the consciousness of individuals while removing subjective bias on the part of those who are doing the study. As mooeypoo points out, it's not always perfect, but that's what peer review helps with, allowing others to examine the work done with a critical eye towards adherence to proper procedure. And this is where I think religion and science diverge the most. Religion tends to hold their Truths sacred, discounting anyone who would criticize them, claiming no one may contest the conclusions they have drawn, where science allows for the possibility that their conclusions may be false, and encourages any and all to test those conclusions for weakness or flaws. Again, I have no problem with belief or faith as long as it's a personal thing. When someone tries to contend that someone else is wrong because they don't believe in the same way, or that the unfalsifiable is fact, that's where religion comes into conflict with science.

Certainly another area where profit has replaced the intended goal is in defense. Consider the sheer volume of lives and resources the world, and especially the US, has spent on defending ourselves against a decentralized, poorly organized and technologically inferior enemy like Al Qaeda. By the time the US alone had spent a trillion dollars of taxpayer funds on the War on Terror, Al Qaeda had been primarily financed only by the personal wealth of Osama bin Laden, estimated to be a mere $300M. When you add in the technological superiority of the Western forces in training and equipment, the fact that Al Qaeda not only wasn't wiped out but actually grew in numbers and support seems to point to conflicted interests. Can we ever expect peace when war is so profitable? Like private prisons who are looking for ways to gain more prisoners, are there arms merchants and war profiteers who are looking for ways to promote more armed aggression?

"For creationists, more than one book is too complicated." - Phi for All

! Moderator Note IamJoseph, preaching is not allowed on these forums. If you make a statement you consider a fact, you must provide support and evidence when your "fact" is questioned. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but not their own facts. Please abide by the rules you agreed to when you joined this science forum.

So here's the conflict of interest I'm talking about. Let's say the treatment is easy, a special injection of capsaicin directly into the pancreas, something that could be done with minimal preparation in just about any doctor's office. There are no risks but don't you think there would be companies that would lobby to delay implementation anyway, just to give themselves time to "re-orient themselves"? Is it fairer to give these companies time to re-orient, or is it fairer to start curing diabetics?

Leopards are awesome. My number one choice of big cat if reincarnation turns out to be true. No other cat has as much going for it, imo. Fast, adaptable, good swimmers and strong enough to drag prey up a tree. Maybe the documentary photographers just have a harder time finding leopards with the camera and they don't want to look stupid. +1

This is such a simple fix and it disgusts me that there is even a debate on the subject. I can't help but think that if everyone were presented with this proposition and shown how effectively it would solve so many problems with healthcare, public opinion in favor would be overwhelming. iNow, I have a question for you (of course others can answer as well). Imagine that the researchers in this study (related article here) come up with an inexpensive treatment for diabetes that completely cures it. The patient's pancreas begins producing insulin normally and the cure seems permanent with a single treatment. The research also provides evidence for possible cures for other diseases. In your opinion, what would be the impact on medicine as a business?

I originally stated that there seems to be a conflict with regards to medical practice as a business; people look to doctors to cure illnesses but doctors make more money by fixing symptoms. You responded with this stuff about getting multiple opinions, which you now confess would be based on the original doctor's diagnosis to avoid conflict. Obviously these opinions are being gathered to determine the efficacy of the original treatment, prior to the actual treatment. Multiple opinions would be equal in cost to the original, because no doctor is going to give an opinion without a full diagnosis. So I have to ask you. How is this, in any way, shape or form, an answer to the conflict I mentioned regarding medicine's goals as a practice and as a business? Why did you bring this up? Interesting. What kinds of regulations do you think there might be that, if removed, would increase competition and allow the kind of service that would help doctors get paid faster? All the regulations I've read about with regard to health insurance protect the patient's and healthcare provider's rights. Are these the types of regulations you want removed in order to give better service? First of all, the inspiration lobbyists have is paid for by businesses who want certain legislation carried out. Lobbyists aren't "voters" in any sense of the word, even though most would probably be registered. Lobbyists are affecting the votes in Congress, where the laws are being made. A prisoner, even if you could successfully lobby to give them back a right such as voting (which, I can practically guarantee you, is never, never, NEVER going to happen), would only be able to vote for a representative. Second, the point is moot because no politician is going to campaign on the point of giving convicted felons the right to vote. There would be no one for the convicts to vote for to help them. This is probably a fair point. It still makes me laugh to think that convicts would EVER be allowed to choose where they want to spend their incarceration, but I could see this kind of pressure on the market being successful if they ever were. Careful, you're sounding a bit liberal with respect to the treatment of prisoners! The customer is the federal or state government who wants the prisoner housed, they are the ones paying for the service (it could be argued that the taxpayers are the customers, since we still have to pay the government for the now more expensive private prisons). In that sense, the prisoner is like a pallet, the prison is like a warehouse. In business terms, the pallet doesn't get to choose where it is stored. Your thinking doesn't reflect reality. I guess you didn't read my link in the Privatization thread that proves private prisons are more expensive to run than publicly funded ones, so here it is again. When the competition (aka publicly funded government prisons) doesn't have to make a profit, how could private prisons be cheaper?

Actually, my tap water does this pretty frequently. It's not a property of distilled water. We had a thread on this phenomenon once before, I'll see if I can find it and link to it. Edit: Here's the other thread about ice cube spikes.

Are we assuming that the half of the population with IQs under 100 are going to be too stupid to know they're being sterilized? Wouldn't it be smarter to assume they're too stupid to see the advantages it will give to the rest of the population? Is this something that will be done secretly, after everyone is tested? If not, once they're all sterilized, are we assuming all will be forgiven, or are we going to give them a prize or something to take the place of the children they wanted?

Microwave or laser transmission.

If they're all practicing medicine as a business, how long do you think they would retain that business by giving conflicting opinions? How would their malpractice insurance provider view that kind of liability? Where are you going to find all these other doctors who are willing to risk liability with an opinion that doesn't include a full diagnosis? I have no idea how that relates to why a not-for-profit government health insurance program would be better than for-profit private health insurance providers. It's simple math, really. It would have no impact on who treated you, just on who paid the doctors. And many doctors and hospitals have said they wouldn't have to charge as much if it weren't for all the delayed payments and red-tape hassles private insurance put them through. We'd have more funds available and less costs.

And when the most popular are full, what then? And do you really see businesses allowing their commodities to dictate who they get sold to? First, good luck getting that approved by current voters. Second, lobbyists have been affecting legislation more than voters for a long time. What difference would letting prisoners vote make on legislation that affects private prisons? Agreed. As I said, I also think there is a conflict of interest when prisons are supposed to discourage crime but private prisons would wither if that happened. It makes more sense for them to encourage crime and more arrests, just like arms dealers profit more from war than peace. It would be interesting to crunch some numbers on this to see how much economic sense it made. Would it cost more than current private prisons, which cost more than state or federally funded prisons? While I agree that such services can be made as good as publicly funded ones, there is still the matter of the profit any business is entitled to. Unless they can somehow take this profit from greater efficiency or some more economical process than the government uses, privatized services will ALWAYS cost more than those purchased with tax dollars on a not-for-profit basis. Most of the US sold their publicly owned utilities to private businesses with the promise that they would be better run at a greater savings. We get the same power and water, but it now costs us 25-40% more in most markets. It used to be all about supplying power and water, and that's what we got, people who worked to do just that; now it's about making a profit by supplying power and water, and that's what we're getting. Big difference, I think (about 25-40%). Beyond just privatization, I'm particularly interested in those types of businesses where the goal is in conflict with the business model. I mentioned arms dealers before, and that's kind of an example as well. If the goal of modern warfare is to bring peace, what would arms dealers do if that goal was actually realized? How would medicine survive as a business if suddenly researchers started finding actual cures for diseases? And if prisons actually became the effective deterrent to crime they're supposed to be, what kind of crimes would privately owned prisons want punished so they can continue to profit? Even the clarification didn't help me see how this relates to the seeming conflict of interest that arises from medicine being treated as a for-profit business when it's goal should be to make people healthy but it's success is measured by how often it can treat sick people. Absolutely. I can think of no better first step than to have the government assume a not-for-profit risk pool to insure healthcare in this country. It's intensely stupid to divert the profit portion of our limited healthcare resources to middle men who's job includes denying us the services we count on.

Some maglev designs energize only the portion of the tracks the train is currently on, to save on power consumption. I think maglev is more cost and time efficient than short commuter air travel for those areas where it makes sense, like Europe and the US East Coast (maybe the Los Angeles/San Francisco/Las Vegas triangle as well), but I don't think it will ever replace longer flights. Trains don't generally spend any time in holding patterns, and maglev trains have fewer moving parts and no friction so mechanical problems would seem to cause fewer delays and costs as well.

I think once the cost problems are overcome (and this is inevitable as oil prices rise) you'll start seeing a great deal more investment in sustainable energy. I would like to see space-based solar technology gain prominence for multiple reasons, not the least of which is the formation of global protocols on how we deal with the stuff we put into orbit. I think having energy output devices hovering over the heads of every nation, capable of beaming down massive amounts of power, will cause us to treat one another with more respect.

With privatization being such a big topic these days, and after reading many articles on both sides of the fence, it seems there are some sectors where profit and the need to grow as a business are actually detrimental to the goals of the sector. It's good market economics to see the need for toasters and manufacture some so everyone is happy, but what about those sectors where a cure is really the goal but maintenance makes better sense economically? Healthcare is probably number one on this list. Is the goal of medicine to cure people or to make money? More effort seems to go into treating symptoms rather than root causes, and some treatments, once prescribed, will go on for the rest of a person's life. Part of this can be attributed to laziness, taking pills instead of doing the added diet control and exercise that would make the pill unnecessary, but in other cases a cure would seem to cut into the profits that maintenance provides. It makes one wonder, if someone came up with an inexpensive cure for cancer, what would the response be from those who see medicine primarily as a business? Prisons are also an area where privatization seems to be gaining a foothold. If this becomes a big enough private business sector, will lobbyists be able to affect legislation which will change laws to create more business for prisons? Drug-related incarceration is huge business, mostly because the inmates are non-violent and fairly docile, their sentences are abnormally long, even for first-time offenses compared to the rest of the world, and they require much less overhead to house them in private prison facilities. From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate If rehabilitation is one of the goals of imprisonment, how hard is a private prison going to work at it if it will eventually mean fewer inmates and less profit? It seems to me that public funding is one of the best ways to make sure that we actually work harder to try to fix problems rather than trying to make a buck from them. Perhaps this is the lesson we need to learn about some of our public funding, that it must be aimed at cures and not at symptoms.

Your original claim stated that this knowledge you had from religion was empirically derived, that much of religion uses the same methodology as science: But when asked for some of this empirically derived knowledge, all you quote is philosophy and doctrine. You gave us nothing that was based on actual observational evidence that would pass any kind of scientific peer review. These claims aren't falsifiable, which is different from being falsified. They aren't capable of being falsified because there is no way to test them to verify if they're false or not. Falsifiability is one of the first tests of any hypothesis, so your "empirically derived" evidence fails right out of the gate. I am at a loss to understand how you find my skepticism to be so extreme. I've tried to explain it to you, and others have even remarked on where you have overstepped the bounds of logic and reason in your attempt to force my stance into something you can more easily complain about. Your arguments are weak and unfounded with regard to the way I view matters of faith and belief. I fully realize how much easier your stance is to defend if you can define me as ridiculing your beliefs, calling them nonsense and dismissing them, but my preference for scientific explanations for natural phenomena does NOT automatically dismiss everything about all religions. I have learned much from a lifetime of study and exposure to many different faiths and practices, and I don't discount any of it. I have my beliefs, and they remain mine, and I also have my preference for scientific explanations for the rest of it. Please try to reply to my actual words, and not some wild interpretation of them that has no basis in reality.

Copper isn't magnetic. Here's the MSDS on copper dust. Not sure if it would help, but a bucket of sand to rub your hands in might pull the dust off.

Screw that, I say we take theory back from the backward, inbred, buck-toothed, country hill people that stole it from us. I suggest a massive internet campaign featuring lots of pictures of goofballs with captions like, "NO! That 'idea' you had this morning about boogers being brain flakes is NOT A 'THEORY'"! Or maybe like this... THEORY of Evolution IDEA about Alien Abductions SEE THE DIFFERENCE?

His reply about biodiversity WAS serious, and his explanation succinct and spot on. His comment about starting with those who believe in eugenics was merely hilarious. You really don't know John Cuthber. This definition shouldn't be on the same planet with him. He's the most contrary, stubborn, anti-crowd person I've seen on these boards, EVER. He's bitten my head off many times and that was when I agreed with him. He eats sheep for breakfast.

I just can't give you the sheer volume of reputation points you deserve for this post. I'm mailing you a cookie instead.

Can you, please, cite some examples of what you mean here? It might help with your answer to Moontanman's request here: ... which, to make it easy to find, is here:

If you want to prove anything to us, do it here. We have way too many spammers to trust a new joiner who wants us to go offsite. Perhaps you could start with a statement, show some supporting evidence, maybe some way to test your statement, and then show us a conclusion you've drawn. Keep it concise and informative, take small steps if you like. Welcome to SFN.

YOU. ARE. WRONG. Your logic is atrocious and fallacious. I've tried using clear statements to show you why, so I'm reduced to words a child should understand. You're the only person here who "can't imagine what else a person could conclude from these words", yet you fail to grasp what this should clearly tell you: YOU. ARE. WRONG.

I believe this is true, but Joel-NMWJ certainly wouldn't be allowed to use the Carmex brand, or anything that resembled the way the name sounds. In fact, the closer he is to their formula, the further away he'd have to be from anything else Carmex does to sell their product. If they can prove he's trying to copy them the law is going to be in their favor. That said, I have to wonder if flavoring would really work. Some of Carmex's ingredients, like camphor and menthol, are pretty hard to overcome with something else. Remove those and you really don't have the formula right, do you? It seems to me that Carmex would have given some thought to such an obvious expansion of their product line, and the fact that they don't have flavors should tell us something. Joel-NMWJ, laws vary from country to country (and, in fact, so does the Carmex formula, to comply with local regulations), so you should really check with a patent attorney in your area. Any advice you get here is informed opinion at best.