Phi for All

*poof* Granted. Now you can afford the rent when you land on Boardwalk and Park Place, and all the other properties you don't own. I wish my clients would learn how to communicte better.

I must say I'm relieved to find there's no gay porn attached to this thread.

Phi for All 1957-2079 WORK IN PROGRESS

Well said, ParanoiA. Those last two sentences should be on the official SFN T-shirt.

Thanks, Mokele. I think this really should be the ideal we keep uppermost in our minds. I don't want hasty generalizations and other fallacious arguments to drag down a good debate and I saw that starting to happen. I appreciate all the input from the people who took the time. Let's keep our tone respectful and our arguments reasonable and I think we'll have fewer complaints..

I don't think anyone on this board, especially a non-Muslim, is going to be able to convince anyone that all of Islam is evil and should be treated like Nazism or the KKK. I prefer to let Islam show us that or not. So let's take a look at what is still left to decide. I don't like hiding behind the argument that Islam is an ideology and when condemning it you're not condemning those who practice it. Isn't that inherent in beliefs? If I say that Judaism is the devil's religion and it's spread must be stopped, aren't I also associating it's followers with evil and condemning those who are spreading it? We love a good debate here but we've got to stop using crap sterotypes and fallacious arguments within them. When someone continues to use fallacies or racist statements to make their point known we have warnings that can be issued. These are the kinds of remarks that can derail a good debate and waste the time of people who are sincerely interested in learning with an open mind.

No one has shown me that they do. If you could, and show me that Islam wants to kill us all as unbelievers, they'll no longer be protected from prejudice. Indeed, it would not *be* prejudice since the whole group has been judged as dangerous to our existence. You see no problem with criticizing the whole ideology and then expecting those who espouse it not to object? Especially when some of the criticism calls for *stopping the spread* of the ideology? I find it ominous. I've heard the message of love from the Quran but never from the KKK. I do appreciate what you consider to be racist indications. As I've stated, I'm willing to be persuaded if someone can show me why all Islam wants non-believers dead. "And I will set My jealousy against you, that they may deal with you in wrath. They will remove your nose and your ears; and your survivors will fall by the sword. They will take your sons and your daughters; and your survivors will be consumed by the fire." Ezekiel 23:25 "7 For the king trusts in the LORD; through the unfailing love of the Most High he will not be shaken. 8 Your hand will lay hold on all your enemies; your right hand will seize your foes. 9 At the time of your appearing you will make them like a fiery furnace. In his wrath the LORD will swallow them up, and his fire will consume them. 10 You will destroy their descendants from the earth, their posterity from mankind. 11 Though they plot evil against you and devise wicked schemes, they cannot succeed; 12 for you will make them turn their backs when you aim at them with drawn bow. 13 Be exalted, O LORD, in your strength; we will sing and praise your might." -Psalms 21:7-13 "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." -1 Samuel 15:2-3 22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? 24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. 25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) 26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Jesus speaking, from Luke 19:22-27

That is a great name, but doesn't anounce their Veganism. How about Veni Vidi Vegi (I came, I saw, I had a salad) or Vegan-a Rock You?

Does that mean it's OK to make racist remarks about blacks who don't define themselves by being black? And I'm really just talking about SFN here, not trying to make any moral judgements. But when someone posts, doesn't that imply Muslims are devil worshippers? Or at least that they are all of like mind so we should treat them all alike? I did read them. Are they to prove that all Islam and it's followers feel this way and take the words literally? If so, I found some passages from the Bible that pretty much condemn the Jews and the Christians the same way.

I don't respond to many of your posts because some seem rhetorical, and often I'm just absorbing what you've said over a longer period, and other times I just have no comment. You might also note that I was responding to what ParanoiA said, not you, so possibly you might be treating everything I say as directed at you. Why should I reference your remarks when replying to ParanoiA? Then this would be a strawman because that's not really what I'm objecting to. Yes. Yes. I ignored the question because if Richard Dawkins came here to post and dragged each thread about religion off-topic with his opinion that all religions are bad, he would receive the same warnings as anyone else would.

Here's the whole post:

I'm merely asking why posting remarks that condemn all Islam for the acts of some of it's radical members shouldn't fall under our policy. There are plenty of ways to discuss this rationally without resorting to language which pre-judges all members of this religious group. And if it can be argued that all Islam is like the Nazis and the KKK then I'll be happy to drop it. I just feel it's hypocritical to enforce the policy against Scot-haters or black-haters or gay-haters and not Islam-haters. If you don't hate all of Islam then why would you want to make discriminatory remarks that encompass all of Islam?

Perhaps you object because I'm not really interested in what you believe in this thread, I'm interested in deciding a point about our policy, and honoring your request to discuss it openly with the membership. And maybe it's not *your* remarks (and especially not your beliefs) that prompted this thread. I used a recent example to show some of the ways we enforce the Prejudice / Racist Remark policy. Does everything seem like a strawman to you? I was trying to find out why that remark was any different from some of the anti-Islam remarks we've had lately. You think it's a strawman to ask about attitudes against Muslims when we already have examples against Scots? Why, because it only *may* happen? Isn't that what I've been arguing about, that if we allow remarks about all of Islam to stand unchallenged, that it will be like any other discriminatory situation? How about this one, Jim? Seems to fit the Prejudice / Racist Remarks parameters and even has a hint of possibly violent discrimination thrown in for good measure.

So if he cites ten links that try to prove all Scots are stupid he gets to post that here? If you back up your prejudices with an attempt at intellect, will it make the other members less likely to want to tear your head off? Very little of what I object to is "discussion". It's the opinions that are cut and dried that border (if not encroach) on prejudice. False dilemma. I'm not saying you have to be pro-Islam, I'm saying that being anti-Islam because of it's radical members is prejudiced and that I see no reason why Prejudiced / Racist Remarks warnings shouldn't apply. Please prove to me that "Islam embraces racism just as badly as the KKK does". Not just some members of Islam, but all of Islam as you have used it in this case.

For security, there's no further way to effectively bar a door from the inside if it opens outwards. Inward opening doors can be braced or barred to prevent entry. But I think the best answer is the screen system. Can't put a storm door or a screen door on an outward opening front door.

Groups like the KKK or the Neo-Nazis are active discriminators, all of them. The decision has been made long ago that these groups, by definition, preach prejudice and discrimination and are therefore not protected as a group, at least for SFN's purposes. Every member of those groups feels that way and the group has no identity without their oppressive goals. If a Neo-nazi or KKK memeber comes onto these boards and makes racial remarks, they will accrue warning points towards being banned. But Islam is diffferent. Not all of it's members act or think like the radical members, and I still haven't been shown that Islam will settle for nothing less than total conversion or annihilation of all unbelievers. We had an instance recently where a new member was challenged on a Physics post and he chose to attack the member who challenged him with a racial remark. It wasn't necessarily slanderous but it had no basis other than being prejudicial. He objected to the challenge because the member was "a Scot", and young so his opinion shouldn't matter. This new member was given a Racist / Prejudice Remarks warning. Should the staff continue to discourage this type of posting? It's not for anyone's sensitivity level or because we think you can't handle it, but these types of comments derail a good thread and everyone starts bickering rather than arguing or debating. It is not about protecting anyone from opinions, it's about keeping level heads while debating and exploring. So how long before Muslims who post here are pre-judged as unworthy because of their religion? How long before we can just assume that a Muslim's opinions are beneath our notice since they must be plotting to kill us? Why should the anti-Muslim comments be allowed if the anti-Scottish are not?

Split from this point in Who won? (Israel and Hezbollah) to discuss whether posts that suggest Islam itself is to blame for terrorism are prejudicial or not. If your opinion is discriminatory towards a group, should it matter whether the group is gays, blacks, Muslims, or Poles? We have a policy against Prejudiced / Racist remarks to prevent people from being judged by what their "group" does. Do remarks like this against Islam count as a violation? I think we'd have to prove that the vast majority of Muslims will only accept conversion or death before we can judge individual Muslims by their whole religion. If we can't then we need to stop blaming all of Islam for terrorism.

Everyone's talking about censorship and banning and free speech in this thread because I expressed a concern about doing my moderator job fairly. I'm thinking I should split these comments off into a thread of their own asking if people think it's prejudicial to judge all of Islam based on what radical Muslims are doing. Or why it's OK to discriminate this way because terrorism is so horrible. I would like to understand because no one has convinced me that it's OK to let it slide in this instance. Policy is what I have to make sure we can discuss these issues among so many varied members with intellectual honesty. It has less to do with what's offensive and more to do with not setting double standards and hopefully creating an atmosphere where members can understand without feeling threatened by narrow mindsets. Shall I split these comments off to start the thread?

Sayonara³'s responses in Pseudoscience are beyond priceless.

Part of it is there's so many interesting things going on, and the other part is the threshhold for sleep that, when missed, doesn't come back around again for a bit. It could be that an overtired child has more on it's mind, and we all know how that seems to make sleep almost impossible.

Interesting interpretation, but only accurate if "afraid" means leery of biting off more than we can chew for no reason. If one jerk in a motorcycle gang of twenty starts hassling me, which is smarter, try to single him out so I can fight just him, or start talking about how his whole gang is no good? Is it even right to assume the whole gang will jump me? What if most of the gang thinks the guy is a jerk, too? Maybe I'm just "afraid" to be stupid.

Just so you know, on the Forum Index page, at the bottom above What's Going On? is a dark bar with a link to Forum Leaders. This will list the usual suspects.