MigL

Consider two massive objects moving uniformly and parallel to each other at an appreciable fraction of the speed of light. Since each object feels gravitational attraction from the other to a point behind its 'current' position, i.e. not orthogonally opposed because of the finite speed of propagation, then there must be a vector component of the effective gravity acting 'backwards'. This would tend to slow down both masses ( equally if equal masses ). Where is this energy going ( its gotta be conserved ) ? ( had this discussion before on another forum, but it was never addressed to my satisfaction ) ( and although this may seem like a hijack of RobbityBob's OP, it is relevant to his questions )

Didn't Napoleon use that same argument in Animal Farm, Phi ? ( yes, I'm being purposefully provocative )

Just clearing things up. Soooo... Is fiscal prudence a good thing ?

Not this past one ! !5 deg C outside right now.

Neither extreme is desirable. Extreme capitalism is essentially 'survival of the fittest/richest', and we aspire to be better than animals. Extreme socialism ( communism ? ) removes any impetus to better oneself. A society must find the right balance. That's the tricky part since opinions as to what is the 'right' balance differ. And the reason democracies have elections.

I did notice Phi, that in post #248 you praised B. Obama for having reduced deficit spending, which is now trending in the right direction. And you imply that this has been a factor in improving the economy/employment. Why is it that whenever a fiscal conservative mentions deficit reduction so as not to saddle our kids with debt, you ( and several others ) always claim that hurts the economy/employment ?

Come to Southern Ontario, Canada. The people are just like Americans, only nicer. From rural to big city in less than an hour. And your dollar goes a lot farther.

Do you not see that this depends on the size of the observational universe compared to the 'total universe ? If your observable Earth was the size of a parking lot, and you couldn't see or be affected by any other parts of it, But you could measure the curvature of that parking lot, and it was flat with a 0.4 % margin of error, would you conclude that the Earth was flat and infinite in extent ? Or would you say you don't have enough information and refrain from jumping to conclusion ?

" Only civil war will end this nonsense " I either misinterpreted the above, or I misquoted you, Rangerx. Which is it ? And no, Phi, none of the conservatives I know ( I am Canadian ) would pull a gun on me if I were to slap them in the head,. I was talking about Texans Of the American conservatives that I've gotten to know on this forum, I don't think I'd worry about Tar at all, and I think I'd have to slap Waitforufo quite a few times before he'd retaliate ( and probably not with a gun ); he seems to be a pretty easy going guy. Neither hates the 'opposition'. Of the American liberals I've gotten to know, Overtone is the only one I'd worry about. He likes his guns and he hates the 'opposition'. But he'll no doubt claim I don't know him at all...

Holy shit ! Here we have someone advocating civil war to fight the evil conservatives ( some of which are your neighbours ), and comparing Trump ( admittedly an idiotic buffoon ) to Hitler. Let me guess, does he belong to the peaceful, tolerant group who like to call themselves 'liberal' ? Or should I just compare him to D. Trump ? ( see his description above )

Good luck with that, Phy. But you'd better step back quick, as you're liable to get slapped back. ( or worse, their kind carry guns )

Very colourful prose, Overtone. But they have a vote, same as you, and you're just gonna have to deal with it. The only choice you have is in HOW you deal with it. You can choose to call them names like they call your president a 'Muslim', but then you'd be no better. Or you can be the bigger man. Just like you can choose to fight terror by being as brutal as the terrorist, or you can have morals and try to avoid involving innocents. I know you've preached the moral option in the fight against terror.

Keep in mind, sorcerer, that causal effects also propagate at the speed of observation ( light ). Nothing can affect you faster than you can see it coming. When a pitcher throws a ball at you, the batter, the ball will not reach you until you see it reach you, and you swing accordingly. Anything could happen to the ball along the way. Similarly, if Andromeda is on a collision course with the Milky Way, it seems kind of foolish to throw away the laws of motion because we don't know what will happen in the intervening 4 bill yrs.

Who says curvature and expansion are not related ? You have little understanding of how expansion works ( from other posts ), and even less about geometry/topology of higher dimensional non-Euclidian spaces. How can you make these assertions ?

Again, you have a limited understanding of the subject, and are running away with your misconceptions. You can curve the paper INTRINSICALLY, without the need for above or below it. Look up the mathematical definition.

I have no problem thinking of the current Republican party as insane. The tea partiers sure give that impression. What I have a problem with, is regarding half of the American voting population as insane. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe they regard your side as insane ? Its not a matter of sanity. That label just gets people upset and stifles discussion. Its a matter of priorities. Some things are more important to some people than others. Heck, you could even say that about the wealthy 1%, to them, personal wealth is the overriding concern. But under a democracy, they have every right to vote according to this concern. Whether you or I think this is right or wrong has no bearing on that right. That is one of the problems with a two party system like the US has. Its one party removed from a dictatorship. By all means, Phi ( and Overtone ), try to change people's concerns. Our fellow men/women should be more important than personal wealth. Our environment and health should be more important than corporate profits. Knowledge and understanding should be more important than ignorance and fear. And so on and so on. But you won't accomplish this by calling them insane !

David has no clue what the distinction is between universe and observational/causal universe, and how one is a subset of the other. He keeps on asking what's at the edge of the observational universe. Its simple, more universe, except its not observational to us being at the center of that sphere. But it is to other observers who may be closer to the 'edge' of our sphere. That same question is important when one asks about a flat, finite universe, or expansion within a 'multiverse'. What is at the 'edge' or boundary ? How could it have arisen ? What is it expanding into ? Etc ? And, most importantly, why do we not see any effects of this ? Almost everyone ( except David ) agrees. An infinite universe must either be flat or of negative curvature ( where a triangle is <180 deg ). While a bounded or finite universe has to have a positive curvature ( where a triangle has >180 deg ). The best reduced dimensionality analogy for a positively curved universe is a sphere where the 2d surface of the sphere represents our 3d universe ( but minus one dimension ). WE consider the surface curving because we have no way of picturing ( other than mathematically ) how a volume curves. This curvature is also intrinsic, such that there is no inside or outside ( of the spherical analogy or actual universe ), and it also applies to other possible geometries such as toroid ( or 2,3,4... hole topologies ). David freely admits he has limited if any understanding of certain subjects but then goes on to make assumptions and draw conclusions based on his flawed understanding of that subject matter. It is very difficult to 'pull' him back to real physics and math since he keeps going further and further down the rabbit hole.

For galactic center sized black holes ( million or billion solar mass ) the density needed for collapse can be less than that of water. While for a star a couple of times bigger than our sun, even the density of neutronium will not allow for collapse.

I'm still wondering why you choose to live in a country where YOU consider almost half the population insane, Overtone ? #And if aliens land on the White House lawn, Daffy Duck will be elected president.

Good to know. I value your ( and quite a few others' ) opinion.

Have to agree. Even if the Republican party is forced to give him the nomination, there is no way the half of the American voters who have conservative leanings will vote for him. The large majority of them are sane ( by my definition, anyway ). Something else I've noticed about the man. There isn't an altruistic bone in his body. He's not doing this out of a desire to help the country that did so much for him and his family. He's in it for himself.

Sooooo... Am I forgiven Imatfaal ? Or are you still pi**ed at me ?

Most teenage girls are less dramatic...

Have more than a dozen computers at home. From lowly netbooks, to four core Lenovo laptops, and large 24" all-in-one Desktops ( my new favorites to tinker with ). All except one of the all-in-one desktops have been upgraded to Win10 and about half of the laptops ( sure enough, a Sony with nVidia graphics ). I use the Nov15 update on disk to upgrade. This 'pulls' the activation code stored in firmware for win8 devices or asks you to enter the code for Win7 devices. My first few upgrades were online downloads/installs, but you have to do all the updates first to get the Win10 notification. Win10 can be easily modified to look/act just like win7, but has the boot-up/shut-down speed of Win8. Some of my laptops running SSDs will boot to the desktop in about 10 secs. And as I become more accustomed to it I don't mind it at all. In fact I like that it automatically syncs to my Windows phone through Outlook. I think that is the purpose for Microsoft's big push. It will get on computers no matter what. But having a common platform with its phones may help boost its phones ( hardware and apps ) which are currently dominated by Android/iPhone.

None of us know your father or his disposition, but many of us know you through your posting history. You can be rather difficult to deal with. So maybe a part of the blame for the deteriorating situation with your father is yours, and you can change that. Many fathers realize that there are two ways to learn life's lessons; make mistakes and suffer the consequences, or take advice from a father who may have already made those same mistakes and already suffered consequences. Advice is one of the best things in the world, its free and its optional. How do you take advice ? My own father passed away about 8 yrs ago, and I can't remember one day that I didn't have an argument with him about something or other. I would give anything to have another argument with him today.