MigL

So there really was an Avalon ?

Then Hamas should change their charter, an official document, to reflect their new intentions. Or do you think we should just take the word of, as you put it, sh*ts ? And my point is that saying 'elections are not entirely legitimate' implies that they are at least partly legitimate. What is YOUR point, or are you going to keep changing it when called on it ?

No I would not, John. Your original statement was "You need to realise that the people who voted for them thought they were the "best available" option." So I think you may be a bit 'muddled'. Although I do agree with you that Hamas are sh*ts. Hitler was elected as the head of his party. His party had more seats than other parties in the Reichstag. Von Hindenberg reluctantly allowed him to lead a coalition government ( of course this was before he granted himself extra powers and effectively became a dictator ). How is that any different than how minority governments operate throughout the world today ? Or do you think all the world has a two party system like the US does charonY ? This is my last comment on the matter, I do hope the truce holds ( I have severe misgivings ) and hope for an eventual peace between Palestinians and Israelis.

Don't take things out of context Ten oz. The original reason for bringing up Hitler was in response to John C., who legitimizes Hamas because they have been elected by the Palestinian people. Well so was Hitler. As to your other points , you're absolutely correct, Hamas will never be a Hitler level threat. Mostly because israel will 'never again' let it be a similar threat.

Re-read that history book, CharonY. P. von Hindenburg didn' t like Hitler and didn't want to appoint him, but he had no choice as Hitler had the support. In later years after the initial overthrow of the government, even Sadam Hussein , Mohamar Gadaffi and Fidel Castro were elected, although the elections were shams. All depends on your definition of election. Not all are above board like ours ( except for Florida of course ).

The people of Germany thought Hitler was the best available option after the guilt and retributions for WW1 were imposed on them. They elected him. So.... what was your point again ?

Well, let's see. A black hole conserves mass ( or energy ), charge AND angular momentum. If a massive star is moving as it collapses to a BH,it must also conserve linear momentum. If a relativistic proton falls into a BH,all that happens is that the mass/energy/size of the evnthorizon increases by the rest mass of the proton, while the momentum ( kinetic energy part ) imparts an ever-so-slight acceleration to the BH, according to conservation laws. A star moving around the galaxy or in response to the tug of another star does not stop moving after collapse.

Influences on young people have significantly changed. When I was young I saw most fights watching Hockey ( where they also need to do something about the violence ). Today's kids are more likely influenced by video games, 'gangsta' rap and Michael Bay films where no-one ever gets hurt. I'll admit to having been in a couple of schoolyard scraps, but a few days later,you were friends again. A couple of yers ago, a few kids my nephew knew of, decided to teach another of my nephew's friends a lesson, and I suppose it was pack mentaity, but they took a hammer to him and left him in a vegetative coma. This is not in a big city, but a small town of 135000 people. We have a 'Young Offender's Act' in Canada where kids under the age of 18 aren't treated as adults. They are treated much more leniently, Jail time if any,is segregated from adults and records are sealed. I have no satisfactory answer to this problem. I would like to see justice for the victims receiving the hammerings and a message has to be sent discouraging this type of behaviour, but at the same time, recognise that sending a kid to an adult jail for an act of stupidity will make him a carreer criminal with no future and no chance at rehabilitation.

I am Roman Catholic John, non-practicing but raised and have taken all sacraments. And yes, I agree, there are fundamental, nutcase Christians who blame Jews for killing Jesus Christ. Even Popes, who supposedly represent God ( and His scriptures ) here on Earth can be nutcases. Or have you forgotten the Crusades, the 'selling' of salvation, the burnings of heretics,the inquisitions, the siding with Germans in WW2, etc. But Hamas is not a religious organization, it is supposed to be a political organization, and as such, their charter should carry considerable weight, as it is a statement of intentions, not of beliefs. It is therefore not muddled and it shouldbe considered. I withdraw my reference to the Hadith, as that IS a statement of faith.

I have to wonder though, did Ukranians actually see NATO as the threat ? Or the fact that if they became members, any furure war between east and west would no longer be decided on German soil ( as during the cold war ), but on Ukranian soil, as the 'line of scrimage' moves east.

You cannot have different results in different frames. I could be moving at near light speed right now with respect to some distant galaxy but my scale will still show the same result.

Again this is just a thought exercise to stimulate discussion ( I'm rather fond of them ). Say a few months back, when there was unrest in the Crimea and Putin announced his referendum ( options to become part of Russia or independant, none for status quo ), the Europeans still had their 'nads, and had offered the Ukraine a similar referendum to be held one week earlier than Putin's referendum; the option to become a member of NATO. If the Ukraine had accepted ( I'm sure they would have ), would Putin have been so bold in the Crimea ? Would the current problems in eastern Ukraine still be an issue ? Has Putin been enbolded by the apathy of the West and Europe in particular ? Has Europe sold its 'nads to buy cheap Russian gas ? Now that he's seen what he can get away with, how far will Putin go to re-estabilish the Soviet empire ? ...memories of Hitler re-arming Germany in the 30s, then annexing Austria, invading Checkoslovakia and finally Poland before Europe finally did something, Wil we ever learn from history ?... ( I'm not that old, but I've hit the half century mark, Besides, AJB brought up Hitler )

Independant or not, Scotland will never be a major power in the world of international soccer ( football ). But then again neither is England ! But seriously, as a Canadian having to deal with the constant whining of "the Quebecois", be careful what you wish for.

I apologized for my wrong wording John, If you choose to call that muddled, be my guest, But then I'll have to accuse you of discriminating against old people. Our discussion has become somewhat academic now,since a cease-fire has been announced along with Israel's announcing a lifting ( partial ? ) of the blockade at the Egyptian peace talks. Hamas has now grown in stature to the Palestinian people as they have won ( Hamas not the people who lost a few thousand of their family members ). All is now as it was several years ago. Israel is confident that its Iron Dome system can stop unguided rockets so they are not worried, And Hamas will use the re-opened seaport to smuggle in more weapons. But Hamas are not stupid. They will 'sell' the aid the western world sends Gaza and buy guided,lo altitude missiles or ones which climb to height only in the last phase of their flight. Missiles which Iron Dome will have a very difficult time with. Hamas will attack again and Israel'sonly option will be another blockade to stop the flow of weapons. Then Hamas will attack again. railing against the new blockade and Israel will again defend itself. And... And ( cue the school children's song )... And..."The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round". Unfortunately everytime the wheels go around, thousands of Palestinians lose their lives under them.

I enjoy our discussions Ten oz, but sometimes your logic escapes me. How do you deal with a bully ? You stand up to him, show him what you're capable of and that the consequences of his actions outweigh any gain. Or as Zapatos says, you intimidate him. Why is it wrong to reduce the situation to as simple as possible ( my opinions and approach have been termed simplistic ) in order to effectively deal with them ?

An 'observation' is any and all interactions. We measure and observe by interacting.

But, in response to members who have said 'these people have very little to lose', the actual leaders of ISIS ( like the Taliban ) are wealthy and have studied abroad. They have plenty to lose ( or bin Laden wouldn't have hid as long as he did ). They do not do the fighting, but convince regular people 'who have little to lose', to drive explosive filled cars into check points, to kill their own and die for martyrdom, and to reclaim a state that ended long ago ). They are modern day Hitlers who can rally a misfortunate population to their own sick and misguided cause. They rally this population by lies and shows of power and brutality, such as beheadings, public executions and the willingness to die for a cause ( always others though, the leaders hide in rat-holes ). The majority of members think it unwise, but I thought our own 'show of power' ( yes a very big hammer, not an accurate one ), might challenge the influence ISIS has over these people. I thought it was worth discussing but defer to your collective opinion.

I don't think I'm muddled at all. Did you read their charter ? I have always stated that I don't have aproblem with Palestinians ( or Muslems ). I have a problem with Hamas and other terrorist organizations who are in it just for the sake of destroying a sworn enemy ( Israel ) and using their own people as pawns in the battle. If in doubt, re-read my posts from the biginning. The Palestinian's ( Gaza's ) only fault is that they picked those idiots to represent them. Other groups of Palestinians, within Israel and without, live in relative peace and with a much higher standard of living. How long before the people of Gaza get a clue, kick Hamas out, and reap the peace ?

I beg to differ, you just provided the evidence... " Depending on which scholar you ask, the atomic bomb provided various degrees of leverage for the emperor to call in a surrender" Or were you lying when you stated the above ? But lets get back on topic... There are two things that prevent war, and they don't involve good will or intentions because we are warlike animals. They are deterrence and the brutality of war. Deterrence can be summerized as 'the consequences of your actions are much worse than the actions you perpetrate', i.e. the fear of the reprisal. After all if you steal $500 and the proportional consequence is a fine of $500, there is no deterrence. People do it all the time in Vegas; its called gambling. The need for brutality in war was driven home by an episode of the original Star Trek, where two worlds had been having a 'neat' war for a thousand years. The strikes were computer generated and targeted people reported to disintegration chambers. There was no mess, no blood, no destruction and no need to end it. Nobody likes a brutal, messy war and will go to great lengths to avoid it or end it. Like the allies' reluctance to face Hitler after the brutality of WW1 ( again just an example, I don't intend to discuss Chamberlin and Hitler ). And again this is just for discussion, but maybe the arab world needs to see what their actions could result in and the brutality which we are capable of. And I'm not saying this is a viable or the only solution, but at least I'm exploring one option instead of just bit**ing and moaning that there isn't anything that can be done like a lot of members of this forum.

Causality violation is possible at the quantum level. Delayed choice entanglement swapping is one such case/experiment.

No ten oz, you keep bringing up Japan, which I used in my original post as an example. A valid one in many people's minds. You brought up two dissenting opinions, along with yours. Would it not be better to address points I made in post #14 and debate what is appropriate ?

Sorry John, I misspoke. I meant the Hamas charter, not constitution. Part II, articles 13, 15,22 and 28. And by holy book I mean the Q'uran, where it states that even rocks and trees will cry out for Muslims to come kill the Jews hiding behind them. As for you billiards, It was you who suggested 'the imagination game' and what if it was Hamas who was the military power supported by the west. Then when I do as you suggest it is no longer valid ??? You discuss, no sorry, argue, like a five year old.

I see your point Ophiolite, just as Germany has finally conquered Europe with the euro. However Ten oz, as CharonY has stated, the fire bombings which were in vogue at the time managed to kill a lot more people than either of the two nuclear explosions. Dresden comes to mind. I would think that the destructive power displayed by the individual atomic weapons is what changed Japanese general's minds. And as I've stated, this would be a pure display of power, a massive explosion of a mountain after all or most people have been warned to evacuate. I would almost think of it as a way to save lives. Discourage the enemy without the multitude of regular airstrikes or soldiers on the ground which always lead to collateral casualties.

The quote you posted makes a nice bumper sticker Ophiolite, but let's examine it in some detail. At the end of WW2, the Japanese were prepared to fight to the last man to defend their islands. A couple of small nuclear explosions quickly changed their minds, they abandoned their expansionist ambitions and quickly became model citiens of the world. It may have been fear, but they realised what was at stake and what they could lose unless things changed. Now let's apply the lessons of history to the current situation. Say after 9/11 the US had dropped leaflets, made radio/TV transmissions and even loudspeakers from low flying planes, advising people to leave the area around a large mountain in the next week.They then proceed to drop a large thermonuclear device which levels the mountain leaving a glass lake, and can be seen for hundreds if not thousands of miles. Does anyone doubt that the Taliban and its offshoot ISIS, would have realised what is at stake and abandoned all plans to take the fight to the western world ? Maybe its time to remind these third world countries just how BIG our hammer really is ! Let me say that I don't personally advocate this course of action ( I'm more of an isolationist ), but bring it up to incite discussion ( not arguing and hatred ).

Yes let's play the imagination game. Do you doubt for one minute, that if Hamas had Israel's might, they wouldn't use every weapon at their disposal ( including nuclear which Israel has ) to commit genocide and kill every Jew in the area ? It is in their constitution and their 'holy' book after all. Re-read my posts in the context of the preceeding posts. Terrorists perform acts of brutality to instill fear. Police also do it, SOMETIMES, but they know its wrong and try to cover up, as in the Ferguson situation which John C. referenced. Hamas harms the Palestinian cause, they do not help it at all. Or do YOU think it helps when they execute Palestinian civilians,without trial, on alleged conspiracy charges, in a public square, in order to TERRIFY watching civilians ( notice the root word of terrify and terrorist ? ).