markearthling

Hello All As there seem to be so many conflicting ideas about this subject and because many of these ideas seem to fall into the realm of speculation I decided this was the best place for this post. Various ideas/concepts of time travel seem to have been around on this planet for a very long time so I think I'll skip the history tour. It seems possible as we are travelling forwards in time every unit of time ( split/second, minute, hour day etc ) already that given time dilation/relativity that perhaps in the future we may be able to "jump" forwards in time by varying units of time ( although if future time is being set up each split/unit of time then it is not clear that by jumping too far ahead we may not land in some kind of "as yet undefined state" ? We could end up by jumping forwards to a future time which does not yet exist ?). So forwards time travel may become possible for us in the future BUT we may have a lot of work to do in solveing all the problems. Some have suggested that time is like a loop in the fabric/structure of space time. This may be so and needs further examination. From what I read it also seems to me that even if we could travel to points in time in the past we very likely would only be able to observe and not CHANGE events we witness there. I once had a weird idea (and have since discovered that others have similar ideas ) about time travel and time machines i.e. Imagine a machine ( possibly with computing/storage capacity way beyong any concepts we have now of supercomputing ( millions of cores or perhaps large scale cloud computing, something fast beyond belief almost - Quantum Supercomputing ?) which could take a Universal snapshot of the location/coordinates of every sub atomic particle, atom, electron [matter], force relationship etc in the Universe ( and we haven't covered dark matter, energy etc) every given time period (which could probably be variable). Then there is the idea that each quantized snapshot is sampled and stored in our time machine so we would have a series of everything which has happened since a partcular point in the past when we started sampleing the time snapshots of our Universe. Now we have to somehow merge this series of snap shots with the correspondingly dynamic nature of the space/time continuum and all it's various energy/forces and relative positioning in the continuum. Our time travel pilots so to speak would have to be translated into their quantum particles/sub atomic and atoms/molecules etc.. A complex map like the time travel snapshot series above and merged with the snapshot info above at a particular time in the past ( to come back we kind of reverse the process). We not only have to create our merged snapshot Series we literally have to be able to Manipulate every sub atomic particle, force relationship For all matter ( plus dark energy/matter etc) In the universe ( or perhaps this could be Done locally like only for the areas of space/time affected ?). Definitely sounds to be in the realm of the impossible. I do realise that the above sounds way beyond possibly what science/tecnology could achieve ( in the future who knows ?). Possibly sounds like the movie, The Fly/Time Tunnel. If it were possible to go back and change what happens in the past then we create the various time conundrums/paradoxes (what if I kill my father etc). If such amazing technology were available in the future then it could have other applications like possibly matter transportation/teleportation. I realise the above is highly speculatory just interested to know what others think.

So JohnB are we saying that these early blimp like UFOs with the propellors (??? maybe for atmospheric use yes ) actually flew here from space ? (propellorz in space !) OR would it be more credible to say that someone on earth was experimenting with/building early blimp like aircraft which may have predated what Graf Zeppelin did (and they successfully kept it mostly a secret apart from some sightings) ? Hey there Moontanman ! Yes I agree.

Basically the question I asked myself was : Where did the concept/idea / shape etc.. of the flying saucer originally come from ( in popular culture )i.e. did we first see them in the sky (as per the Keith Arnold sighting in 1947) ? [we also seem to assume that because of their aerial performance capabilities that they must come from space and be of extra terrestrial origin - They could actually be from earth and simply be new technology [black technology being tested by governments - and there is much that they don't want us to know - this idea already has great credibility ]. I don't necessarily hold with the idea that UFOs/saucers are actually extra or inter dimensional craft. I can't see any evidence for this claim although there is much on the web covering this subject. Some people suggest that this is the era/period when the term flying saucer first entered the public consciousness ( around 1947 especially after the so called famous Roswell incidents). In fact I believe that the idea of the flying saucer was around much earlier than this. Info over at Wikipedi suggests that the idea has existed in popular culture and media since early last century ( around 1911 ) although I have not seen the evidence on this. However, the following details the story of one american man named Ray Palmer who was an early SCI FI magazine author and editor. http://www.thejinn.n...ing_saucers.htm Ray apparently got going with his SCI FI /saucer stories etc around 1938. In fact many SCI FI magazines/fanzines carried saucer images and stories which predate the period of the 1940s. There was also a number of early flying saucer shaped flying vehicles ( mainly unsuccessful) which predate even the early work of the SCI FI magazine world ( around 1929 for example a lenticular shaped flying vehicle was invented ). I have read references to various historical works/images from various places around the world in other cultures and the claim is that earth has been visitted before in the past, possibly by aliens in UFOs/saucers. I have seen nothing that convinceingly or conclusively supports this claim. My contention and claim is that it is more than likely that the idea/concept and shape etc of the classic flying saucer was invented by a human mind here on earth ( it didn't come from space ) and possibly early last century ( 1900s ). However, I do keep an open mind on this subject and am open to the views of others on this. One other interesting idea I have seen is that IF UFOs/saucers are flown by extra terrestrials from space then perhaps they have been aware of our human civilisation here on earth for quite a while. The next question I ask myself is WHAT was happening in the world around the period of 1947 which might prompt the beginning of many UFO sightings/events/abductions etc.. ? Answer we had just ended ( yes in 45 ) an extremely violent world war where millions and millions were annihilated. Then we dropped our atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Would this have gotten anyones attention from space ? Would ETs be interested/concerned about what we were getting up to and maybe come here for a look see etc.. ? There has been so much written about the extraterrestrial/UFO/abduction etc phenomenon/scenarios that so many ideas have become very confused and unfocussed and frankly the whole field of memes relating to these things have begun to smack of the CRANK factor and lack credibility on a wide basis. I read Whitley Streibers Communion books in the 80s and saw the film based on his work later. I was totally creeped out and I think I was a little hooked by it all until later when the admissions of fraud came out. Whitley and his supporters had simply done it for the money folks, yep that's the truth. ( just like the Fire in the Sky / Snowflake story about the abduction of a forestry worker in 1975 - it was shown by various investigators that there were monetary incentives behind the motivation of involved individuals to falsify their stories/claims ). There has been so much hoaxing going on and almost a total lack of conclusive evidence that less and less people bother to blink an eyelid anymore when this subject comes up ( less and less people could care about it at all ). ETs from outer space ? Yeah Right ! Tell us another bed time story. But I am interested in what anyone here thinks about it all.

michel123456 LOL ! Though I can see why you may have been a little confused about this. I'm not sure if Jonathon and Neil Diamond know one another but maybe you could be right. Ophiolite I'm a little disappointed that you said I have only done a disservice to Jonathon and not a GREAT disservice ! I agree, he is one of the great gulls of life. I do think however, that you are being too hard on Jonathon. He was a gull ahead of his time and he dreamed of breaking free from the ordinary gullness of life and learning all he could about new things and new capabilities. He too was judged to be in breach of his groups expectations and rules ( political correctness ) and was subjected to the dogma of the group and expected to conform. I must therefore insist upon recommending that all members here investigate Jonathons' life and works both immediately and fully ( see the movie again and it may open your eyes). The rodeo of life is like the show business stage. There will always be snipers and hecklers to knock our favourite artists off their pedestals. So watch comprehend learn chill out and enjoy Life the Universe and Everything ?8O)} p.s. Only lawn here ( high on life ) It's better to burn out than it is to rust. Neil Young

Is this anything like the Bogus Hadron particle ? ROFL

Yes the works of L Ron Hubbard or so I hear, From what I can make out Scientology is designed to hijack the mind of the believer and the abrogation of the intellect and the pocket book to a load of fraudulently bogus ideas/procedures/rituals and claptrap. ( they remind me of the Moonies and others ) That's about it really other than what others here think on the subject.

There are too many database products out there to mention here also many many programming languages used to process data on the various computer systems. It is likely that Barclays will make use of the Internet and many other internetworking technologies and related control/management software as well as the best multi level security and IT people that money can buy. They will use more than one database product (very likely). On your 2nd question Of course their new system will be crucially important to how well they can perform in future financial markets. That said, what is your application or why does this interest you specifically ?

Oh come now Ophiolite I think he would have been quite an open minded seagull ( although I can't remember seeing his brains fall out even after those terrifyingly steep dives). This after all is general philosophy. However if you are implying that I have overdone things then I am willing to wear that criticism. Open yourself up to possibility and let your heart and mind soar. By the way I recommend a viewing/reviewing of this terrific old movie ( to all and sundry ) from 1973. I just purchased a DVD copy but remember seeing it on TV way back then. It is truly an inspirational piece of theatrical art. Also switched me back onto the music of Neil Diamond.

Jonathon Livingston Seagull ( A film that will lift your spirits and make your heart soar) also recommended are the literary works of Richard Bach on which the film is based. Music soundtrack by Neil Diamond. Open up your mind and psyche And dare to dream Dare to be your true self The person you were born and meant to be. Is there anything the human spirit and mind Cannot conceive of and achieve ? Can we fly like the birds and soar like the eagle ? An ancient dream of man is coming true As we learn how and another limitation slips away. Can we fly higher and further and faster than we Ever have before ? Can we dive steeper and faster With more control than we ever did ? The dream is slowly coming true. Will we fly to the planets and eventually the stars Pursuing the mysteries of space, time and the universe Conquering all before us and eventually the mystery Of life and creation itself (substitute "evolution" if you feel the need). How far and fast will we travel then ? Through the einstein rosen bridge Or faster than light like the legendary tachyon. We already travel with the arrow of time forwards Into the unknowable. But will visits to the future be "knowable" then How about the past ? Will we conquer the many dimensions postulated By the string theory and breach the boundaries Of our own universal donut as postulated by M theory ? Will we travel to other universes in the multiverse And finally perceive the meaning of Big Bang theory And the "intelligent" creation of all that Lays before us ? Or discover chaos out of which flows order Like a final fractal crystallization ? Will we discover intelligent forces of design and creation Or just forces and global structure ? Will the macrocosm finally shrink into the microcosm And will humanity finally transcend it's form And longevity Organizational and societal woes Over many thousands or millions of years ? The future lays before us Will we embrace all it offers Or shrink backwards from the challenge When we now stand at the edge of the sea of knowledge So much lays within our grasp To fulfill us physically, intellectually and spiritually To make for a better life and world (s) For more open and productive collaboration And communication as a species We can only go forward if we progress Especially beyond the bounds of greed And monetary gain. Our progress and success depends on many things But we should not capitulate To the snipers of group expectation and Political correctness and dogma in any form From any source. We are all different and we should Recognize our differences and biases We should be open about them. The future can be ours if we are prepared To work And embrace all that it offers And to never lose our child like sense Of wonder. It's better to burn out than it is to rust. Neil Young Any discussion/commentary welcome.

HAL I like your updated image (awesome colour etc for something 1200 years old). From this clearer image it does look like the headgear is actually hair although I wonder why the beard is brown and the hair yellow ? ( maybe the crown at the top does indicate some kind of crown also) I agree with what marat says above. I don't think it likely Jesus would have been depicted in his time as he was just another Jo on the street (unimportant to authorities etc).

Having another look at that 1200 year old irish image of Jesus supplied by HAL above the images' headgear is a little rough looking almost like a crown of thorns OR it could be some kind of fancy tousled hat which they may have worn way back then but it doesn't seem at all like what you would imagine a crown would normally look like (although notice the Cross topping the headgear which can be seen on other crowns found in christendom/europe and perhaps UK). Then again it may just be the persons' hair as has been suggested. Cap'n Refsmmat Pontius Pilate may have been a ruthless governor as you said BUT remember that people back in those times were VERY superstitious. The romans had a pantheon of Gods themselves which they made sure to placate with the necessary sacrifices and religious ceremonies whenever possible. At one stage in rome (and I am not suggesting that this relates to the time frame we are discussing just the relevance in terms of the roman religious mind set in general) there apparently was an temple or alter set up to the veneration of what was described as the unknown God (to ensure that their actions did not bring down the wrath of a deity that they were not aware of). So pilate, as ruthless as he may have been may also still have been concerned about the consequences of killing Jesus (what will the Gods or any unknown God [ the Jewish God ?] do to me for this i.e. in the afterlife he may have been disadvantaged because of this). Remember that his wife warned him about killing Jesus (of course another open question) because "she had suffered much in a dream about him" i.e. she warned him to not do anything against that righteous man (the wording may in fact be something like "have nothing to do with this righteous person". On the subject of deferring to the jews as to who he released or not yes he could have totally ignored jewish wishes but perhaps he being superstitious as most people/romans were in those times and not wanting to offend any God/Deity (and because he considered Jesus was not what he was made out by the jews i.e. not at fault) he may have decided to give Jesus a chance at freedom so he threw the release question open to the jews present in the crowd (pilate may have considered this another way to gain favour with the Gods, known or otherwise so as to not offend any deity). It could hence be possible that pilate (the ruthless) had other reasons for not wanting there to be any roman record of the audience/judgement and crucifixion of Jesus. (reasons of superstition/religion). Also the romans were hated by many jews and giving them what they wanted may help him to govern more easily in the future (reasons of politics and practicality). The jews probably did not want any records kept so if pilate did/ensured the same thing then he may have been getting more on side with the jewish establishment and furthering his own cause of governance and that of his mother state/empire Rome. As an example of how much Jesus was hated by the jews consider that he was crucified in the company of criminals (one crucified on each side of Jesus at Golgotha (place of the skull)). The jews wanted him to be identified with criminals and the implication is that he broke their most sanctified religious laws and like any other criminal he deserved the death penalty for his blasphemies against God and their laws. Apparently the romans put a wooden plaque over Jesus head on the cross which read something like "this is the King of the Jews" but no way did the jews want that read or repeated by anyone as they did not recognise Jesus as their Messiah/Christ and certainly did not want this blaspheming criminal for their King so they requested that pilate change the wording of the plaque to "This man said that he is the King of the Jews" to discredit the idea BUT pilates response was "What I have written I have written" and that was that. as

I am having trouble making these functions work in the posting/reply editor here. Can we do these things here ( if so what I am doing wrong or what procedure should I be following ) ? I seem able to select/all but then I can't copy, cut (although paste seems OK) ? I have to use backspace or delete to get rid of unwanted content. any help much appreciated

The definitions above furnish one with a wider view and fill in most of the gaps. I particularly like the contributions of missisippichem and Ophiolite (all are good though). If I had said below (taken from above) above Knowledge, though it is valid and very usefull (crucial to our survival and progress in life etc) should not on it's own be misconstrued to be Wisdom. Wisdom is the sum of our resources/knowledge/abilities and what we choose to do with these resources/knowledge/abilities (how we apply our resources etc). If I had said this above originally my meaning may have been more clear/complete. Though I am not trying to be exact i.e. make the definitive definition as Ophiolite pointed out there is no standard definition. My view is only one amongst many views on this. I take resources/knowledge/abilities to cover most of the things discussed above such as experience and recognition of limitations. I thought I was trying to cover most of these things by using the wording ,"wisdom is the sum of our resources" (trying for a catch all - but of course there is no point in shooting for something that doesn't exist).

ajb Thanks for what you said I get it that these things may not be pure energy. I am not criticising what you said it's just that I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "stuff" ? Also I am having problems making this quite facility work. Can anyone tell me what I am doing wrong ? Sorry that was "quote facility".