Charm

I've just read my last post and boy, can a lot change in a couple of weeks. I stopped 'messing about' and sitting on the fence, a few weeks ago and rededicated my life to Christ. I'm never going to understand things like 'evil' but I do have faith that 'the Judge of the Earth will do right' and that God is reconciling the world to Himself, so that one day, evil will no longer be 'made'. God IS NOT evil, He IS love. If I have said or implied that God is in some way 'evil' because He creates 'evil', then I ask God's forgiveness for my ignorance in Jesus' name.

How can our LIMITED understanding of logic 'prove' God exists or doesn't exist? I don't think it can. God would have to be far more complex than us mere mortals who only have limited brain power. I am very wary of using logic to prove things about God, the way you are. I do think your reasoning is in many parts correct though and we should reason about these things. I agree that a God would want us to believe in Him and would give us evidence of His existence. It also says in the Bible that faith is a gift. I can't conjure up faith in God, anymore than I could decide to levitate off my chair. This is where I give God the benefit of the doubt: if God can do anything, and knows everything, then suffering even if only temporary, must be necessary. Are we 'necessary'? Did God 'have' to make us? I don't know. It boggles the mind. If an action that we considered 'evil' (e.g you shoot someone in a fit of rage) could be 'reversed' as if it had never happened, then the evil would no longer 'exist'. So if Jesus is going to reconcile all creation to God, ie resurrect dead people, abolish death and suffering, then the 'evil' becomes an idea again. There are two 'stories' in the Bible that really disgust me: the one about a guy who was walking with the priests while they were carrying the ark of the covenant in the desert. The priests who were carrying the ark stumbled and it looked like the ark was going to fall, so the nice guy instinctively reached out to steady it. He gets struck down and killed by lightning or something like that, by God for touching His holy ark. How unfair is that? The biggest problem I have with the God of the Bible, is when He tells the Israelities to kill by the sword all the Caananite men, women and children and suckling babies. I thought His ways were meant to be 'higher' than our ways. If the Caananites were that depraved, then why not zap them out of existence peacefully and instantly, thus leaving the 'land' nice and empty for the Israelities? God ordered them to kill (murder) in a most violent way. This is a big stumbling block for me, that I can't reconcile with a God of love. However, if the claims of the Bible and Jesus are correct, then that poor guy who tried to stop the ark falling will be resurrected to eternal life, as will all people who have ever lived e.g the Caananites, regardless of how they died, or how 'good'or 'bad' they were. It sounds like a fantastical fairy tale. I don't know. The fact is: evil is a reality not just an idea so if there is an Intelligent Designer, then He knew that evil would be an 'ingredient' in His creation. As I believe there is sufficient 'evidence' to infer an Intelligent Designer, and since I believe this Designer would have 'contact' with His creation, of all the alleged claims of who God is, the God of the Bible and Jesus, make the most sense in my opinion. The bible describes God as creating evil and using it but also of a future time when He won't use evil anymore, because all things 'evil' will no longer be realities. I'm not completely convinced - some days I think 'what you see is what you get- there is nothing else'. Unless God 'zaps' me with a strong faith or experience like Saul on the road to Damascus, then I'll no doubt keep wondering til the day I die.

I wouldn't know, as maths is my weakest subject. I agree that they are not descriptions of actions, hence why I quoted Lewis. Surely 'logic' only exists via a mind, and so God (if we assume He has a mind) would always have logic, ie logic is eternal, as God is. How could you create logic, without emplying logic in order to create it? I'm not going to go down that road. If there is a God, then I would argue that logic is an eternal part of His being, just as love, evil, power is. The Bible claims, that God can make a universe that does not contain suffering (the new Heavens and Earth in Revelation) so the problem we have is why didn't He 'end up' with this evil free universe/creation in the first place? This made me chuckle, not because I found it funny but because it's very interesting and 'way out', but then, so are many of the claims of the bible lol. The bible is clear about God's dealings in evil: 'the man has become like one of us, knowing good and EVIL', gen 3:22 and 'The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity (Hebrew word for calamity is 'ra' evil); I am the LORD who does all these.' Isaiah 45:7 just to quote two examples. So a universe containing evil is not inconsistent with the Bible. Evil exists and must have always existed and will always exist, if God is eternal and 'knows good and evil' then He has always known about evil. I get the impression from the Bible, that evil will become an idea (again??) not a reality (being acted out) like it is now. That sounds like a long shot though, a fairy tale. As interesting as these arguments in logic are, I will give God the benefit of the doubt (it doesn't have to be the God of the bible) . We have to learn about evil via experiences, just as we learn about goodness.

I am listening. I don't refuse to listen, so if I am 'deaf' then it's because I don't understand your reasoning. You are defining 'infinite power' by using 'set theory'? So something that has no beginning and no end (the word used with God's power is 'eternal') can be 'contained' within a mathematical structure ie 'set'? My brain is not computing this idea at all. I'm going to check what words have been translated in the Hebrew and Greek for 'infinite'. I didn't find a verse reference to God's power using the word 'infinite' when I quickly checked just now. Let me re-read your post. It contains some very interesting points, but they require a good amount of brain power and it's a bit noisy here at the minute, so I'll come back to you. Edtharan, a cornerstone to your arguments is your assertion that: 'if God has Infinite power, then He has the power to break the laws of logic'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you arrive at this conclusion because if it can be said 'God cannot do.......' then He can't be infinitely powerful. So for example, if I say 'God cannot make 2+2=5, then God, not being able to alter the laws of mathematics etc, cannot be infinitely powerful. You mention infinity as the reason why God can break the laws of logic, although I don't quite follow how that would make it possible?? Are you saying there are infinite scenarios therefore the 'breaking logic' one must be possible? Can you expand on this? I share C.S Lewis' view on this: His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to his power. If you choose to say 'God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,' you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words 'God can.'... It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of his creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because his power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God. —The Problem of pain.

I maintain that we can't know for sure what terms like 'eternal power' mean. Because I don't know, I can't form arguments about how or why God made the universe the way He did. I understand why you reason like this. It seems to make sense. I too sometimes conclude that God must be 'evil' as well as 'good', if I reason along those lines. However, it is possible that our limited perspective of the universe, from it's beginning up to it's end, prevents us from knowing why there is evil and why God allows it and 'creates' it. The only clue I can find, that helps me to conclude that God is not evil, is realising that evil acts don't occur 'on their own' so to speak. They're part of many inter-twined actions that are part of this universe from beginning to end. If the processes (of good and evil) are working to form only good eventually, then once that is the reality and we are 'freed' from groaning creation and enter into the freedom of the children of God, ie we become resurrected spirit beings who operate in many more dimensions, (I'm getting into biblical language here, so apologies if you don't know what I'm talking about) then maybe we will understand, why evil had to be tolerated and used, to achieve lasting good. There's a verse in the Bible that has always appealed to me: 'Come, let us reason together.....' Isaiah 1:18 God is asking the Israelites to reason with Him. Surely God, if having given us our reasoning abilities, expects us to use reason. But I am aware that for all my reasoning abilities, I can't fathom questions like 'why is their evil' or 'why does God allow/use evil'? Anyway, let's suppose you are right, and God is evil. Why should that have any bearing on belief that God exists? Forge Bible Code rubbish. The coded information in DNA can be described as 'digital'. Digital doesn't have to only consist of 2 'states' as you put it, but rather it's about 'discrete values'. DNA uses 4 discrete values and is therefore 'digital' in that sense. Here's an interesting article : http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v421/n6921/full/nature01410.html Irreducible Complexity is a hotly debated topic. I've 'studied' it for a few years, and have listened to both sides of the argument. My position is that certain biological structures certainly seem irreducibly complex e.g the flagellar motor. I've listend to Miller's rebutals and I've listened to the likes of Minnoch and Meyers. I think science will reveal these things in the near future.

I don't understand 'normal' gravity, nevermind 'v-shaped'. I think if there was anything in the claims that Elenin isn't a comet etc, then I'm sure astro-physicists, astronomers, cosmologists etc, would have voiced their concerns by now. The only 'scientist', I've come across supporting these claims, is Mensur Omerbashich who is mentioned in the Youtube video I linked to. Wiki call him a 'crank scientist'. I'll continue to be interested until the dates they've set, come and go. Not long to wait. lol.

Absolutely. I included the 'comments' as they contained 'claims' that can surely be verified scientifically.

Thanks again Spyman. I found this comment about Dwarf stars on another Youtube video: ''If this is indeed a Dwarf Star with orbiting satellites why is it not visible? It is pretty close now.'' ''The first dwarf star was discovered officially in 1995, because this classification of star is very difficult to see. ELE is releasing a photon cloud that keeps the star at temps just above absolute zero. The dwarf star is sitting inside a V-shaped gravity trough that creates the gravitational lensing effect that allows you to see the stars in the distance, but not the dwarf star. A dwarf with half Sun mass is only 50 percent larger than Earth; small but very powerful indeed ...'' Anyhow, considering we don't have to wait long before these aledged polar shifts etc, we shall soon know......

Thanks for that link Spyman. I did watch a Nasa video that said a similar thing. The video I linked to, suggests that Elenin is NOT a comet and so whilst the nasa information is true of comets, maybe it won't apply to Elenin. If Elenin is a dwarf star, then would that make any difference?

I'm hoping some of you who understand subjects like astronomical alignments, magnetic portals and pole shifts, can help me. I've noticed a lot of interest around the 'comet' Elenin and lots of 'end of the word' nonsense that seems to be associated with this 'comet'. I had some spare time today and came across this short video about Elenin and it aroused my interest: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=MqV0StQbJQs I don't know if this guy is a quack or what. I'm hoping someone here will watch the video (it's not too long) and be able to explain to me in layman's terms, if he is talking sense or rubbish. According to a programme you can download from Nasa (Jet propulsion Lab?), Elenin will aligning with the sun and earth on Sep 26th. Elenin will be 0.396 AU from the earth. This closeness and alignment will supposedly cause a pole shift (according to the maker of the video, not Nasa). Then on Nov 22nd there will be another alignment, with Elenin being 0.58 AU from the earth and this will cause a pole shift reversal. So! Is it all rubbish? Can an 'object' assume polarity control of the Earth from the Sun?

I am wary of using logic like this. You make some good points which I've considered myself, but I don't know what 'infinite power' means, or it you can put the two together. Maybe your logic is similar to someone saying, 'if God can do anything, then let him pull that bald man by the hair'. Of course that is nonense to us, and maybe too, because we don't understand what God is, we measure Him by our limited perspective and understanding. I agree. Right and wrong is different to good and evil, but all these concepts are not black and white, so do we really understand what is good, right, wrong and evil? Again, if we try to be absolute in our 'equations' of logic, then we may end up with the wrong answer e.g all suffering is evil. Is it? God allows suffering and causes suffering so He is evil. Is He? Is the act 'evil' and is it necessary or unnecessary? Maybe we can't know for sure. I don't understand logic so I wouldn't begin to presume in what way God is 'subject'? to it. Maybe nothing is necessary in itself. I don't know and will never know in this life. Maybe 'sacrifice' is necessary for us, not God. Food is necessary to us but not God. Learning about the consequences of actions is part of the sacrifice/forgiveness process which is for our benefit not God's. Then you might as well say, 'don't bother creating anything. You know how it's going to pan out. It's all determined anyway. You don't need anything, so why bother? I don't know why we have to learn gradually, and why we were even created at all. Not knowing these things, doesn't cause me to not believe in a god. I can understand someone rejecting the God of the bible and other similar religions. I 'reject' Him myself at least twice a week. The arguments you present may convince someone that the biblical God is not real but I don't think they address problems for someone like me, who does believe there is a Creator, due to the 'evidence' that science is discovering (irreducible complexity, digital code in dna).

I suspect we don't understand the idea of 'perfect'and God being 'infinitely powerful'. That may sound like a cop out, but if I begin with the premise that there is a Designer, then I can only form a rudimentary understanding of Him from the universe that we live in. We live in a dangerous universe, and our lives are a mixture of pain and happiness. Why is it necessarily 'wrong' that the universe is like this? Suffering and therefore 'evil' must be necessary, or certainly in a material universe. If we take an example 'pain'- without pain we wouldn't live very long. Pain is horrible but necessary. If we take the law of cause and effect, then God certainly must have known that a material universe would 'involve' evil so yes, He deliberately (but I would say it was necessary) created suffering and evil. I don't think He 'could' make the universe otherwise. I have wondered about these very points you make, and if I believe that there is a Creator who has brought everything into being, then I come to a 'dead end' so to speak - I don't understand how the universe works and so I accept that what we have is 'what we have' and we live with it. From my understanding of the Bible, God does 'forgive' without someone having given a sacrifice, if by sacrifice you mean the killing of an animal and ultimately Jesus allowing himself to be killed. 'Sacrifice' doesn't always involve 'blood'. I think the 'shedding of blood' is symbolic rather than it literally appeasing God. This is a big subject that I don't really understand myself. As I am a parent and had to 'punish' my child when they did something that was wrong, it was because I loved them that I didn't just say 'oh, nevermind, you did wrong, but I forgive you'. Their 'pain' at being punished was a temporary state that in the long run lead to them understanding their actions and helping them to not do that thing again. I would think of Him as evil. I often don't understand or 'accept' why we suffer and so I often shout at God and tell Him I'm not going to bother with Him anymore. I don't think that can be right. Those that God gave 'direct knowledge' to, already understood enough other things, to make sense of what they were 'given'. We have to learn and grow in our understanding of things and we have to experience things before we can understand them. Advances in Science, seem to be showing that things are determined. I watched a programme the other night called 'Are you good or evil?' and it showed how Psychopaths have abnormal brains and an abnormal gene. It discussed how our emotions are 'caused' by chemicals. It would seem that science is discovering that we don't have 'free wills'. So it seems to 'make sense' that everything must be determined. Does God determine everything? I don't know. HE must know how things will pan out, due to 'cause and effect'. That makes Him responsible for evil. Does that make God evil as well as good? It seems to imply that.

I know that men have been refered to as 'gods' or 'mighty ones'. Flesh and blood 'mighty ones' are not the same as Elohim surely? Elohim (whether that is one or more?) is eternal and is spirit. You quoted Jesus saying 'ye are gods' to support your view, so I also cite the bible where it talks of God not being a man, being eternal and being spirit. I will admit that the morals of the God of the Bible don't seem to be consistent. On the one hand He says 'do not murder' and then orders the Israelites to perform genocide on the Caananites. Can I 'love' or believe in this God? It's very hard to. God admits He creates evil as well as good. Do you believe God does not creat evil? If you don't, where does it come from?

I certainly don't mean to 'preach' but rather convey some of my 'understanding' of these issues we are discussing, and I may very well be wrong in what I 'believe' hence why I'm asking you questions. Your irritation at my response suggests you will not have the patience or good will to be of much help to me. If I'm wrong then let's carry on with this discussion. I don't believe in a literal talking snake, but maybe the Genesis account is figurative. Maybe it's a load of rubbish! Why do you believe the God of the Bible is a fool to require the shedding of blood? We all die and therefore nature 'requires' the shedding of blood. I'll go back to my cave for now.........

It would seem from reading the Bible, but more so from what we are learning about the universe and life, that God did not create a perfect system. It may be a 'good' system, but not perfect, if by perfect you mean there would be no problems e.g death and suffering. Is God stupid to place us on a planet that is made up of plates that move and cause earthquakes? Is He stupid to create the sun that makes life possible on Earth, but will burn out one day so life won't be possible here? Obviously He is not stupid. Is He any more stupid to send the Word, into this finite set up, knowing he would be killed? No. Jesus said it is necessary to die. (unless a seed dies and is buried, it won't produce fruit). Getting back to 'the perfect system', the whole 'message' of the Bible, is that God is in the process of transforming ALL His creation into a perfect system. At the moment all creation is groaning, because it is not perfect yet. The whole 'point' of Jesus, is that He is the key to perfection and immortality. We can't have 'perfect' to start with. That is a fact. Why can't we? I suspect it's to do with the knowledge of good and evil. You have to 'learn' both. The learning takes a lot of time - trial and error. Did God try to trick Adam and Eve with the trees? Of course not. He knew they would eat and He must have wanted them to eat, otherwise they could not know good, unless they knew evil. God is in full control of EVERYTHING. Nothing has gone 'off course' and is thwarting God's plan. God cannot be thwarted.

When you say God is a man, do you mean with a body like ours e.g flesh and blood etc? I'd like to explore 'Gnostic Christianity'. Would you be interested in starting a thread regarding this? If your position is the right one, then I'd like to know why.

What definition? Does it matter what God looks like? What is a 'Gnostic Christian'? 'Hell' is the 'grave' where good and bad go. God does not punish people 'for ever'. God is not overcome by anything, or He wouldn't be God surely. Here's a funny short video to watch: http://www.martinzender.com/crack_o_dawn/save_yourself_from_hell.htm Scroll down to 'report 42'.

I watched the above video. It makes some interesting points. Do you, as a gnostic Christian, accept the 'New Testament' books? Do you believe Jesus is the Saviour of the world ie the Messiah, and if you do, then in what way does He save us?

If there is a 'God', then of course it's silly to imagine we can 'bribe' Him or sway Him in any way. He would surely be in control of EVERYTHING. As a 'reluctant' Christian, (today I am!) I struggle to understand why Jesus had to die as an atoning sacrifice. It conjures up the points that you have made, which seem to be illogical. If we 'sin', then why doesn't God 'just forgive'? Why does He require the shedding of blood? I don't think I will ever understand, unless God 'zaps' me with the truth of it. The only thing that does make sense of it though, is that 'death' is temporary as is punishment. It serves a purpose (as does evil) and as terrible as Jesus' death was, it's HIs resurrection that is possible only because of His death and thereby everyone's future reurrection to eternal life. So love prevails and remains, whereas evil and death will be 'no more'.

Hi folks, good to be here. I hope to draw on your combined knowledge and understanding of various scientific topics. Bye for now......