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Marty

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Everything posted by Marty

  1. For the ones that has never had an encounter with an APBT how can you even post in this thread? And thanks Tommy for chiming in on the topic
  2. There is absolutely no comparison between this argument and the debate at hand. Tobacco isn't the issue... so-called "pit bulls" is the current topic. I fail to see your point, there are no similarities. What is a "pit bull?" What is your definition of a "pit bull;" a dog who kills or attacks a person? How much of America's society can identify a so-called "pit bull?" What do they actually look like? How do these so-called "pit bulls" that are lovely family pets not count? A good majority of the American public claim to own this fictitious "pit bull 'breed'." The "pit bull" is currently the most popular supposed "breed" of dog in this country today. According to the "statistics" of the most popular registry who registers dogs as "American Pit Bull Terriers" currently register approximately 200,000 new "pit bulls" per year, discounting the countless unregistered dogs claimed to be "pit bulls" and every other money-hungry registry who will even register a cat as a "pit bull" (it's been done). According to your statistics, going only by the number of approximately 200,000 per year which are registered by a single registry, how many "pit bulls" attack people each year (not counting all of these dogs which you claim have killed numerous people). Even with your unproven figure acquired by the ignorance of perception, the percentage is extremely small with your totally irrelevant comparison of tobacco smokers versus "pit bulls" which kill people. The fact is, your "statistics" are guesses at best.
  3. Not a "chox mix." Not a "buff mastiff," either: a "shred of historical evidence" for Merritt Clifton. Click on photos to enlarge. How unnerving it must seem, how humiliating, to be a professional breed-basher this week! Spend years stoking the urban legend machine, and what happens? Famous athlete gets busted for dogfighting, his "ticking time bombs" turn out to be good dogs, and the news is all about friendly pit bulls nestled in the loving arms of their foster moms and dads, or playing happily with other dogs. Playing with children, even. It's almost enough to make a person feel sorry for Merritt Clifton. Almost. Clifton is the editor, and I use the term loosely, who lists the "chox mix," the “Dauschund," the “East Highland terrier,” the “Weimaeaner,” the “Buff Mastiff,” etc. among dogs that bite: these are "clearly identified" animals, he states, labeled by people "with evident expertise." ["Clearly identified" and "evident expertise" also mean that the blue heeler, the Australian blue heeler, the Queensland heeler and the Australian cattle dog are described as separate breeds in Clifton's odd tabulation of dog bites, and mixes are lumped together with dogs labeled purebreds.] No MLA format for Clifton: no footnotes, no in-text citations, no pages of works cited. And because some editors, reporters and columnists can't tell a peer-reviewed study from a pig in a poke, Clifton enjoys a certain amount of air time. Here he is on CNN, talking about pit bulls in general and the Vick dogs in particular: Considering the risk the fighting dogs pose to shelters, potential owners and other animals, "they just don't have a chance," Clifton said. "You can compare it to what happens with exotic cats and people who keep tigers in their backyard. It's not the tiger's fault, but you are still on the menu. They are victims, but you do have to treat them as animals that belong in maximum security." Imagine how ignorant and how biased you'd have to be to make that sort of remark. Now that the wheel of Karma is bearing down on him, Clifton is beginning to sound shrill: Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People, takes issue with my previous post, in which I wrote: "Remember that only a generation or two ago, pit bulls were renowned as 'America's family dog.'" He promptly e-mails me, saying: This is a total fiction. There isn't a shred of historical evidence that pit bulls ever amounted to more than 1% of the total U.S. dog population until under 15 years ago, or that they were ever commonly kept as family pets (or indeed by anyone except dogfighters) until then. Clifton says that between 1900 and 1950 [according to search results on the NewspaperArchive.com website] 35 breeds of dog accounted for 3.5 million newspaper articles or ads which included the word "dog" and a mention of the breed's name. Pit bull terriers, Staffordshires, and American bulldogs account for 34,770 results, roughly 1% of the 3.5 million, leading Clifton to believe that from 1900 to 1950 "pit bulls" made up no more than 1% of the U.S. dog population. There are so many things wrong with this, it's hard to tell where to start. Forget duplicate ads. Forget multiple references to Lassie and Rin-Tin-Tin and Balto. Forget short stories, movie and book reviews, and breed names used figuratively or used in advertising. Forget the regional, racial and socioeconomic factors that affect what goes into a newspaper. And most of all, forget that Clifton failed to search for bulldogs and bull terriers: the two names most closely associated with the "pit bull" breed in the first half of the 20th century. Set all that aside, and the bias and ignorance still loom large. "Not a shred of historical evidence!" Not a shred, dammit! To digress just a bit, how is it that people who don't know anything about dogs become dog experts? How is it that Jon Katz -- who allows his dogs to worry sheep and calls it "herding," who believes stockdogs are trained with a clicker, who views the no-kill sheltering movement as a threat to America's children, who [as far as anyone knows] has never trained a dog to do much of anything and has never attended a real sheepdog trial even as a spectator -- how is it that Jon Katz has become, in his publisher's words, "one of the country's most respected" writers on dogs? How is it that Merritt Clifton -- who wouldn't recognize scientific research if he tripped over it, who thinks German shepherds are bred to "herd," who can't be troubled to edit his spelling errors or find out what dogs are really bred for, who has [as far as anyone knows] never cared for or trained or even patted a pit bull, who has written about "the custom" [known only to him, apparently] "of docking pit bulls' tails so that warning signals are not easily recognized," and who writes that "temperament is not the issue, nor is it even relevant," since virtually all pit bulls are "bad moments" waiting to happen -- how is it that Clifton has become an "expert" on the breed? "There isn't a shred of historical evidence" [Clifton writes] that pit bulls "were ever commonly kept as family pets (or indeed by anyone except dogfighters)" until the 1980s. Wrong. Again. On the left: one example of a pit bull on a citrus crate label. I grew up in a region famous for its citrus crops, and love historic crate labels. Lots of the old ones feature popular breeds -- Airedales, Saint Bernards -- and these days modern breeds are occasionally photoshopped into old citrus labels. The Pup Brand label is an authentic oldie. This facsimile is for sale here. At the top of this post is a photo of a book called The Dog Album. From the dust jacket: "For the nineteenth-century businessman, newly engaged couple, or Victorian family dressed in their Sunday best, a photo session was indeed a special occasion. Which makes it all the more fascinating to see how often the family dog participated in the event." The Dog Album includes a dozen or so photos of pit bull type dogs with their people. There are more pit bulls in this book than collies. More pit bulls than pugs, in fact. Even more pit bulls than Saint Bernards. Vintage photos of people and their pit bulls are a staple on eBay. Here's a link to the photo below. And here's a shot of a handsome pit bull with a group of railroad engineers: On the right, a postcard of a lady. No, Zelig fans, it's not the same dog ;~) A pit bull is the subject of New Yorker icon James Thurber's classic Snapshot of a Dog. "'An American bull terrier,' we used to say, proudly; none of your English bulls." "American bull terrier" was one of many names given to the dog now called a pit bull, according to American Kennel Gazette editor Arthur Frederick Jones. Jones wrote a chapter on terriers for the National Geographic Book of Dogs, and began the chapter with an appreciation of Joffre, the Staffordshire terrier his family owned when Jones was a boy. Anyone familiar with pit bulls knows that these dogs have always been called bulldogs in rural areas and in southern parts of the U.S. When Laura Ingalls Wilder writes about the family bulldog, Jack, she's writing about a dog we would recognize as a pit bull. In the great children's book Sounder the dog of the title is half hound, half bulldog: that is, half pit bull. Listen to Texan Jim Crainer of Hawgs, Dawgs, and Hunting: Hello David, I appreciate you taking the time to write. Your question is "Do I hunt with pitbulls and do I presently have any pups I'm selling or giving away". First, Do I hunt with Bull dogs? Yes, but I only use them in a catch dog capacity. When the hog is bayed up, I get as close as I can and release a protected vest covered and cut collar wearing bull dog to go catch the hog. I dont have bull dogs that I let hunt for me, but know of some people who do. Its just a personal preference on type of dogs is the reason I dont. Suprisingly to alot of people, some strains of bull dogs are good hunters and have a good nose especially for rig or hood hunting. But its like any breed of dog, you have to find the right dog to do it with. Such as, just because a fella has a blackmouth cur or a catahoula doesnt mean he will bay cattle or hogs. Or just because a person has a walker hound doesnt mean he will tree a coon. You have to go thru a number of them or get them from reputible breeders to find one that will work for you. Second, Do I have any bull dogs puppies to sell or give away? I usually raise one litter of bull dog pups a year, there is a picture of the two I kept on the baydog pictures, Under Dogs, picture #3. I do sell them occasionally when I raise a litter. Thanks again for your question. Good Hunting, Jim [Crainer writes elsewhere that he favors the Carver line of pit bulls -- a fighting strain --and won't bother with a pit bull unless it's people friendly and can ride loose in the rig with other dogs.] If Merritt Clifton actually knew much about dogs, or cared enough to study the history of dogs in the U.S., he would know all this. Pit bulls -- bulldogs -- have been common for the better part of a century and a half, though not as ubiquitous as they are today. They were, and are, kept and loved by all sorts of people. The photo below was taken in the 1890s. The toddler is my maternal great-aunt [a wonderful woman who loved dogs, and owned some legendary ones -- legendary in our household, anyway] and her uncle Albert. Albert was crippled: the dog in the photo is helping to hide Albert's legs in addition to providing support for the child. Seventy years after this photo was taken, my great-aunt remembered the dog's name and spoke of him fondly as "our bulldog." Her parents were hard-working, pragmatic Iowa farmers who liked good dogs and didn't keep bad ones. They were not dogfighters. (Thanks to EmilyS for the note that prompted this post.) Tags: boundless etc. ignorance, Clifton, dogfighting, nitwit, pit bulls, rescue, Vick Posted by Luisa at 8:54 PM 6 comments: Anonymous said... "When Laura Ingalls Wilder writes about the family bulldog, Jack, she's writing about a dog we would recognize as a pit bull." All Wilder says is that he has a stump of a tail and his teeth show a little because he's a bulldog, and that he's brown and brindled. I do agree that one could question Jack's breed, but what makes you believe he was a pit bull? January 31, 2008 12:32 AM Katie said... My grandmother was funny when she found out I got my first pit bull. She was so upset, scared, angry that I'd be so stupid. Until she met her and found out that the dogs now called "pit bulls" are pretty much the same as the "bulldog" her uncle had when my grandmother was a little girl (she's 89 years old now). Suddenly she wasn't scared anymore. She knows these dogs- they were commonplace family pets when she was a girl. Somewhere there exists a picture of her sitting on the front porch with the dog, and I really wish that I could find it. January 31, 2008 4:20 AM Caveat said... People like Clifton (a handful come to mind although he's the champ) are unfortunate and if they weren't so dangerous it might almost be cruel to mock them. They have some kind of irrational fear and rather than trying to address and work through it through exposure and learning more, they support it with what amounts to gossip and a rather perverted form of creativity - they make stuff up and call it fact. Their lack of intelligence and analytical ability handicaps them further. Of course, those in the media who are too lazy to read actual reports, court documents or scientific papers (they're boring) or consult with real experts (they use big words which aren't appropriate for the readership)just love people like Clifton. Fortunately, while there are a few of these bozos out there, they are vastly outnumbered by honest experts and researchers on the subject. My friend, who has bred AmStaffs for decades (I'd love to have one of her dogs but the Ontario govt insists on 'protecting' me from myself because I'm apparently not a grownup yet) told me that the bull dogs came to N. America with settlers from the UK. They were all-round utility dogs, watchdogs, hunting dogs and companions for the family. They are still one of the best all-round utility dogs out there, especially as they are rather generalized in shape - nothing extreme, few health problems, minimal grooming, medium size, thrifty to keep. I must fish out and scan my picture of 'Uncle Joe' (not sure who he is, maybe my maternal grandma's brother) sitting on the steps in Montreal with his bull dog in the early 30s. Great post. Keep it up! January 31, 2008 8:11 AM Mac`s Gang said... Great post! Maybe it`s just time to ignore you know who. I notice the only people that quote him are the "feeding frenzy" posters that jump in after an incident. These are the same people that attack those that are looking at ALL the circumstances surrounding a bite or a fatality. They have no interest in finding solutions,they are only interested in blame. Why would anyone with a brain cell blame a dog? Maybe Hector,the media darling(abused by M. PR$#K ) could interview MC and get some answers! I`d pay to see that interview. January 31, 2008 8:18 AM Caveat said... Sorry for hogging comments but I followed the link, read Clifton's garbled list (alphabetical order would have helped). I note no mention of Bloodhounds, the 'pit bulls' of their day. Strange. I guess ol' Clifton has never seen this: http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/pictures/wwiposter.jpg Or this: http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/pictures/ww1.jpg Looks as though the American Bull terrier (the Yankee terrier) represented the US in WWI. I guess Clifton isn't privy to the work of Dr L Brisbin either. His research fellow debunked the Mechanical Advantage/Locking Jaw fable in 1988, published in the Proceedings of the S. Carolina Academy of Sciences in '89 using rigorous and reproducible scientific methods. The findings are unchallenged and unrefuted to this day. Also, Dr Brisbin, who has an interest in rare and endangered species of wild swine, uses the APBT exclusively to catch his research subjects - because they use a bite and hold grip which leaves the swine unharmed. But there I go again, picking on a caricature of a self-styled 'expert'. January 31, 2008 8:42 AM Anonymous said... Awesome post. Great job of researching the real Pit bulls (yes, all the newspapers and people back then called them bulldogs, bull terriers or bull dogs - not Am Staffs or APBT!!) - The fact that he would enter Am Staffs or APBT in a search of old newspapers shows how unbelievably clueless this man is. Merritt-less Clifton is probably the worst "researcher and/or statistician" I have ever witnessed at "work." (and I use those terms VERY loosely). The fact that Kenneth Phillips (Dog Bite Law) uses his stuff on his website shows just how "bright" the average person really is. January 31, 2008 1:17 PM Post a Comment http://lassiegethelp.blogspot.com/2008/01/nitwit.html And another... http://lassiegethelp.blogspot.com/#sidebar6
  4. A Quote for ya! ‘The fool doth think himself wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.’ — William Shakespeare Fools act on imagination without knowledge. Pedants act on knowledge without imagination.’ — William Arthur Ward
  5. Humane Society of the United States... If you've never read this I think you should... http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/136 How about this one... http://www.lawdogsusa.org/home.html
  6. The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) Report on Fatal Dog Attacks... Overwhelmingly this report is used by the media, council members and legislators in an attempt to prove a case for passing breed specific legislation. So I feel in necessary to set the record straight on this report for all to see. Here are some quotes from the CDC and Doctors involved in the studies explaining how the report is INACCURATE: Procedure: We collected data from The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) and media accounts related to dog bite attacks and fatalities, using methods from previous studies (CDC Special Report on breeds involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998, September 2000). Ideally, breed-specific bite rates would be calculated to compare breeds and quantify the relative dangerousness of each breed. For example, 10 fatal attacks by Breed X relative to a population of 10,000 X’s (1/1,000) implies a greater risk than 100 attacks by Breed Y relative to a population of 1,000,000 Y’s (0.1/1,000). Without consideration of the population sizes, Breed Y would be perceived to be the more dangerous breed on the basis of the number of fatalities. (CDC Special Report on breeds involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998, September 2000). NOTE: The CDC study does NOT use population as a factor. Considering only bites that resulted in fatalities, because they are more easily ascertained than nonfatal bites, the numerator of a dog breed-specific human DBRF rate requires a complete accounting of human DBRF as well as an accurate determination of the breeds involved. Numerator data may be biased for 4 reasons. First, the human DBRF reported here are likely underestimated; prior work suggests the approach we used identifies only 74% of actual cases.1,2 Second, to the extent that attacks by 1 breed are more newsworthy than those by other breeds, our methods may have resulted in differential ascertainment of fatalities by breed. Third, because identification of a dog’s breed may be subjective (even experts may disagree on the breed of a particular dog), DBRF may be differentially ascribed to breeds with a reputation for aggression. Fourth, it is not clear how to count attacks by crossbred dogs. Ignoring these data underestimates breed involvement (29% of attacking dogs were crossbred dogs), whereas including them permits a single dog to be counted more than once. (CDC Special Report on breeds involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998, September 2000) Finally, it is imperative to keep in mind that even if breed-specific bite rates could be accurately calculated, they do not factor in owner related issues. For example, less responsible owners or owners who want to foster aggression in their dogs may be drawn differentially to certain breeds. (CDC Special Report on breeds involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998, September 2000) (after 1998, the CDC stopped tracking which breeds of dogs are involved in fatal attacks; according to a CDC spokesperson, that information is no longer considered to be of discernable value) (Pit Bulls in the City, Indy Tails July 2005) "There are enormous difficulties in collecting dog bite data," Dr. Gilchrist said. She explained that no centralized reporting system for dog bites exists, and incidents are typically relayed to a number of entities, such as the police, veterinarians, animal control, and emergency rooms, making meaningful analysis nearly impossible. (CDC releases epidemiologic survey of dog bites in 2001, September 2003) When multiple dogs of the same breed were involved in the same fatal episode, that breed was counted only once (eg, if 10 Akitas attacked and killed a person, that breed was counted once rather than 10 times). When crossbred dogs were involved in a fatality, each suspected breed in the dog’s lineage was counted once for that episode. Second, we tallied data by dog. When multiple dogs of the same breed were involved in a single incident, each dog was counted individually. We allocated crossbred dogs into separate breeds and counted them similarly (eg, if 3 Great Dane-Rottweiler crossbreeds attacked a person, Great Dane was counted 3 times under crossbred, and Rottweiler was counted 3 times under crossbred). Data are presented separately for dogs identified as pure- and crossbred. (CDC Special Report on breeds involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998, September 2000) Here are some quotes from the CDC and Doctors involved in the studies concerning Breed Specific Legislation: When a specific breed of dog has been selected for stringent control, 2 constitutional questions concerning dog owners’ fourteenth amendment rights have been raised: first, because all types of dogs may inflict injury to people and property, ordinances addressing only 1 breed of dog are argued to be underinclusive and, therefore, violate owners’ equal protection rights; and second, because identification of a dog’s breed with the certainty necessary to impose sanctions on the dog’s owner is prohibitively difficult, such ordinances have been argued as unconstitutionally vague, and, therefore, violate due process. Another concern is that a ban on a specific breed might cause people who want a dangerous dog to simply turn to another breed for the same qualities they sought in the original dog (eg, large size, aggression easily fostered). Breed-specific legislation does not address the fact that a dog of any breed can become dangerous when bred or trained to be aggressive. Other risk factors included dogs who roamed the neighborhood or dogs who were tethered. In other words, it appeared that the negligence of human guardians was a higher risk factor than the breed of the dog. learned breed-specific legislation is not the way to tackle the issue of dog bites,” said Dr. Julie Gilchrist of the CDC Injury Center in Atlanta, Georgia. “Instead, we should look at the people with those dogs responsible for the bites.” (Pit Bulls in the City, Indy Tails July 2005) A couple of my personal comments on the CDC report and others like it on why they are fictional at best! On the CDC report they have broken it down into a couple of sections, Purebred and Crossbred. Under Purebred they list "Pit bull-type" dog, this is NOT a Purebred dog? They use that very same header under Crossbred which invalidates this report. Using a term like "pit bull-type" would indicate that any number of breeds (as there are 20+ that are mistaken as pit bulls) and mixed breeds could have been grouped under these counts. As for Crossbred or mixed breed dogs it is my opinion that they need to all be grouped under "mixed breed". When it comes to mixed breed dogs, it's virtually impossible to determine the breeds. If in fact you do know specificly what breeds the dog is (which is rare) how would one know which "breed" did the biting? In the first bullet point they admit to using, "media accounts". That alone tells us this report is nothing more than a waste of paper. The media is certainly NOT a place to gather information for a statistical study. There are many incidents that are reported as X then turn out to be Y. Many cases of mistaken breed identity or out right lies. Here are a few: http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/MistakenIdentity/WrongId.htm Furthmore, this report was a collaboration of the CDC and the AVMA both of which are against breed specific legislation! http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/CDCReport/CDCReport.htm
  7. Give me one example of A known APBT turning on its owner... No!!! lol ATTS stands for American Temperament Test Society are you still blind to the fact that APBTs passed with flying colors? You are more amp to be struck by lightning than to be bit by an APBT, Please educate yourself about the breed before you go spouting off at the mouth like the media does Would you'll like to continue?
  8. Are you sure? This is what I have as temperament testing of all breeds... ATTS Breed Statistics as of December 2006 Page 1: Afghan Hound - Belgian Malinois Breed Name Tested Passed Failed Percent AFGHAN HOUND 161 116 45 72.0% AIREDALE TERRIER 98 75 23 76.5% AKBASH DOG 14 12 2 85.7% AKITA 447 329 118 73.6% ALAPAHA BLUE BLOOD BULLDOG 6 4 2 66.7% ALASKAN MALAMUTE 187 158 29 84.5% AMERICAN BULLDOG 136 113 23 83.1% AMERICAN ESKIMO 78 65 13 83.3% AMERICAN FOXHOUND 2 2 0 100.0% AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER 542 456 86 84.1% AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER 521 437 84 83.9% AMERICAN TUNNEL TERRIER 2 2 0 100.0% AMERICAN WATER SPANIEL 6 5 1 83.3% ANATOLIAN SHEPHERD DOG 26 21 5 80.8% AUSTRALIAN CATTLE DOG 162 127 35 78.4% AUSTRALIAN KELPIE 6 5 1 83.3% AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD 571 461 110 80.7% AUSTRALIAN TERRIER 16 13 3 81.3% AZAWAKH 1 1 0 100.0% BASENJI 159 106 53 66.7% BASSET HOUND 33 28 5 84.8% BEAGLE 59 47 12 79.7% BEARDED COLLIE 45 24 21 53.3% BEAUCERON 11 8 3 72.7% BEDLINGTON TERRIER 19 18 1 94.7% BELGIAN LAEKENOIS 4 4 0 100.0% BELGIAN MALINOIS 214 194 20 90.7% How can you say this? are you listening to what the media tells you?
  9. So your telling me this site is totally against Pit bulls? Let me read this thread in it's entirety I'll be back
  10. I have been involved with over a hundred Pit bulls and have never been bitten by any, I have been into the breed for over 20 yrs and I can tell you now they were never bred for human aggressive only animal aggressiveness... have any of you read the ATTS Breed Statistics? Read it and weep. The APBT is one of the most stablest dogs you will ever encounter, I have not read the whole thread but I'll show you some of my dogs... http://www.atts.org/stats1.html I'm like Arnold Schwarzenegger... "I'll be back" Here's what an APBT actually looks like, just so you know...
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