GameBeth:)

Thank you. As a child of "the land of the free" my personal preference of dog is the American Pit Bull Terrier. My three year old will tell you his best friend is a "Pit Bull". Some other child may prefer the Golden. Or Doberman. But until one specific breed proves itself COMPLETELY UNWORTHY OF EXISTING then I will continue to oppose breed-specific bias. Until you have the co hones to tell my son his dog is demon-spawn unworthy of existence, then you have no angle. Hell, until you've shared your life with an APBT you don't know what the heck you are talking about. Hearsay really has no sustinence. Why do people who don't even know the APBT have such strong opinions?

What's the benefit of having ANY dog then? Ban one, ban them all because they are all "useless." The American Pit Bull Terrier's "usefulness" can match -and exceed- that of just about any dog. Pit Bull uses in Therapy, Service and other work For hundreds of years the Pit Bull dog has been bred to have a human friendly disposition and an overwhelming sense of need to please their owners. Dogs of all breeds have been mans assistants since the beginning of domestication and this is an area the Pit Bull has great opportunity to excel. Pit Bulls are currently used and suitable for all types of service work including drug detection, emergency rescue, service and therapy work, military service, and much more. Pound for pound the American Pit Bull Terrier ( APBT ) is the strongest breed in existence and has a tenacity to meet its objectives as no other. Because the Pit Bull puts its own interest second to that of its owners the chances of it achieving a task are greater than that of other breeds. The American Pit Bull Terrier ( APBT ) is additionally one of the most intelligent and easy to train breed of dogs. The trainer of the show dog Lassie has even remarked on how the Pit Bull is his choice of breed for training. This is due to the Pit Bulls ease of training, focus on task, desire to please their owner, and don't give up attitude. Because the Pit Bull has such strength, intelligence, desire to please, and a don't give up attitude it would make a good choice as a disabled assistant service dog to those who are facing issues of mobility... To read more: http://www.pitbullregistry.com/workingpitbulls.htm

Pangloss: You'd better be careful or I might just give you a big fat smooch. Here's a little food for thought also... http://canineaggression.blogspot.com/ 2007 - Fatal Attack Facts and Figures 2007 was a banner year for dog attacks. 2006 had been a record for the US with thirty-one fatalities, but we beat that in '07. Here is the full update on the thirty-three fatal attacks by dogs in the US over the year 2007. Look through the list, and then we will talk about what we see. 1 - 1/12 – San Antonio, TX: 10 year old girl-Pit Bull-male-intact-chained. 2 - 1/16 – St Louis, MO: 69 year old woman-German Shepherd-intact male-not chained. 3 - 1/24 – Richmond, VA: 6 year old boy-2 Rottweillers-intact females-not chained. 4 - 1/29 – Escambia Co, AL: 18 month old girl-Rottweiller-intact male-tethered. 5 - 2/16 – DeKalb, GA: 2 year old girl-1 Pit Bull mix, 1 Boxer X Bullmastiff mix-intact male, female pregnant-not chained 6 - 3/20 – Friendswood, TX: 50 year old woman-1 Catahoula X American Bulldog mix, 1 Golden Retriever-intact males 7 - 3/23 – Combine, TX: 2 year old girl-2 Pit Bulls-intact male, female with puppies-chained. 8 - 4/23 – Dorchester County, SC: 18 month old boy-Pit Bull-female intact-chained but in laundry room. 9 - 5/13 – San Antonio, TX: 90 year old man-2 Pit Bulls-intact male, pregnant female-not chained. 10 - 5/25 – Ft. Meyers, FL: 71 year old woman-unknown-loose dogs 11 - 5/25 – El Paso, TX: 95 year old woman-Doberman, German Shepherd-both intact males-no chain 12 - 5/26 – Savannah, GA: 3 year old boy-1 Pit Bull, 1 Pit Bull mix, 1 Terrier mix-the two males, intact-not chained 13 - 6/17 – Connorsville, IN: 63 year old woman-Chow-neutered male-not chained 14 - 6/29 – Deltona, FL: 62 year old woman-Pit Bull-intact male-not chained 15 - 7/12 – Carroll Co, GA: 5 year old girl-Rottweiller-intact female-chained 16 - 7/23 – Cookeville, TN: 11 month old boy-2 Siberian Huskies-intact-no chain 17 - 7/29 – Bath, NY: 6 year old boy-Pit Bull-intact-chained 18 - 8/16 – Minneapolis, MN: 7 year old boy-Pit Bull-intact-chained with puppies in basement 19 – 8/18 – McMinn County, Tn: 15 month old boy-stray female mixed breed-intact with puppies, newly acquired with fresh puppies 20 - 8/ 31 - Dallas Texas: 3 year old boy-Pit Bull-intact male-not chained 21 – 9/14 – Warren, MI: 4 month old girl-Rottweiler-intact male, previous bite-not chained. 22, 23 - 9/13 – Iosco Township, MI: 56 year old woman, 91 year old man- 4 American Bulldogs-all intact-no chains 24 - 9/25 – Boger City, NC: 2 year old boy-(2) German Shepherds-chained-intact males 25 - 10/2 – Middleburg, FL: 42 year old woman-(2) Pit Bulls-neutered males-no chain. 26 - 10/7 – Parumph, NV: 73 year old woman-8 wolf hybrids-all intact, one female in season-not chained 27 – 10/15 – Pontotoc County, OK: 65 year old woman-mixed breeds- (5 to 7), breakdown unk. Loose pack. 28 - 11/01 – Phoenix, AZ: 4 year old girl-American Bulldog-male-neutered-not chained. 29 - 11/03 – Killeen, Texas: 11 year old boy-Pit Bull-intact male-No chain. 30 – 11/13 – Knoxville, TN: 21 year old woman-Pit Bulls-1 male, 1 female in estrus with puppies-all intact-not chained. 31 - 12/13-Dorchester County, SC: 2 year old boy-Pit Bull-intact male-chained. 32 – 12/17 – Rabun County, GA: 61 year old woman-Pit Bull-male-chained. 33 – 12/25 – San Bernadino County, CA – 45 year old woman-unknown pack of loose dogs. Looking at the numbers here, a few things jump out. Twenty-six of thirty-three involved intact animals. Fifteen of thirty-three involved Pit Bulls. Ten of thirty-three involved chained animals. Does that mean intact Pit Bulls are chained up and waiting to kill? Not hardly. What I see these numbers indicating, based on my on-scene investigations, is that irresponsible owners tend not to spay and neuter, tend to chain their animals out for extended times with little or no socialization, and that Pits are currently popular with owners who maintain their animals with less wisdom and care than most of us. Once again, it's the two-legged problem behind the four legger that precipitates the problems. I also have to point out that eighteen of thirty-three were kids, all eleven or under, mostly under three. If ever there was proof of the need to supervise children with dogs - ALL DOGS - this should be it. Don't expect the DVD player and video games to keep them safe. Pay attention and be a parent, not just a piece of furniture.

What's clear cut? The fact they were even pit bulls? Or do you think there may be a chance of a schizoid mutt or two being thrown into the mix there? Were these 32% pure bred American Pit Bull Terriers? DNA tested and documented as such? Or were they perhaps bulldog looking, untraceable heritage, backyard bred mongrels? Were they "Pit Bulls", or simply reported as such? Did some no toothed fella say he had a "Pit Bull"? Nothing here is clear cut, especially when you consider those dishing out these statistics know little if not nothing about the true American Pit Bull Terrier. I'd say at least 40-70% (I'm aiming way low here!) of so-called "owners" out there who say "Hey man, i gots me a fierce Pit Bull" don't know what the heck they are talking about. Just because some schmoe sells another schmoe a big butt headed monster doesn't mean either one knows anything. Yeah, there may be some hybrid pieces of doo doo out there wreaking havoc, but don't come after my dog because of it. Go after the imbecils who are screwing up the breed. Quick addendum to my last post. Lance, your source was the San Francisco Chronicle. 2005. (I know I know, an article which cited the oh-so-conclusive CDC report) This article was written just a couple weeks after a 12 year old boy was killed by the family "Pit Bull" in San Francisco. Big Time prejudice here. Research the case. The 12 year old boy's dad was an idiot who was never there. He had NO PRIOR EDUCATION about "Pit Bulls" and wanted to make money off some pups so he bought a male and a female. He never put one second of training into them. Neighbors observed the children of the household "Hitting the dogs in the face" in the backyard but the dogs never did anything. The so called mother locked the 12 year old boy in the basement one day while she went to town. She told him the female dog was in heat and the male was protective so he had to stay in the basement until she got back. The boy ventured out of the basement. Got killed. Pit Bull attack? Or moron-mother attack? I say it's a "clear cut" case of peepeepoor parenting and slack animal guardianship. Let's let our 12 year old ride a stallion next to a mare in heat. Or play in traffic. Every headline has more detailed facts which should be researched. No emotion there.

Actually I was not being as snide as you may think. I'm quite serious. Since many gang members are black does that make black people more dangerous? Since "Pit Bulls" are owned by many machismo wanna be thugs does that make "Pit Bulls" more dangerous? Or are we buying into hype created by the media perhaps? I can literally cite HUNDREDS of American Pit Bull Terriers owned by responsible people who have never and would never attack a human being (obviously I mean without provocation which would prompt any dog of any breed to attack, i.e. robbery, mistreatment, etc). These are real-life dogs owned by real-life people. You say Pit Bulls "attack and kill people more so than any breed of dog." Where is your point of reference here? How many different breeds of dogs have you dealt with? I assure you, I am not being snide in any way shape or form.

That is certainly a thought process unbecoming of an intellectual. I've trained horses for years and seen some downright nasty injuries caused by horses who were actually intending to injure the human involved. I've seen people injured by all different races of humans. So should I conclude that there are certain breeds of horses and races of humans which are more dangerous than others?

My apologies to TommyT and Marty...I know you have seen my outline more than enough over the last year-but sometimes it comes in handy In case anyone here is interested. This is a very easy to follow outline of APBT History APBT History 101 This is a general and somewhat remedial outline of APBT history. My source at the bottom. Hope it helps answer a question or two. APBT defined/early history/debates * American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) - descendent of original English bull-baiting Bulldog , has historically been bred with working/performance goals in mind. There are several types of dogs that are called "Pit Bulls." -American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier (AST), Staffordshire Bull Terrier (SBT). - These 3 dogs share common ancestry, but have different breeding criteria APBT roots go back at least one hundred fifty years to England (excluding ancient bulldog history ). -In late 18th and early 19th c."bulldogs" were bred for bull-baiting as sport, game catching, and bringing down cattle. Historically, "Bulldog" did not mean a specific breed of dog, but rather it was applied to descendants of the ancient Mastiff- type dogs that excelled in bull-baiting. - performance-bred working bulldogs of old resembled modern APBT's. - todays APBT enthusiasts use "bulldog" to describe APBT's Bull-baiting outlawed in England in 1835 - so matching two dogs against one another rose in popularity. APBT history debate: were these pit fighting dogs a new breed of dog specially created for this pastime? -Some (i.e.. Richard Stratton) feel APBT is basically same breed as Renaissiance bull-baiting dogs and NOT mixed with terrier, as commonly accepted. These folks feel a bull-baiter/ terrier cross is more consistent with the English Bull Terrier's history, not APBT. -Others (Dr Carl Semencic) argue the APBT is indeed a bull-baiter/terrier cross, and did not exist in its current form during Renaissance. Proving early breed history is difficult - Extreme secrecy of dog breeders. Breeders feared letting rivals discover secrets of success and replicating it. By the mid-19th century the breed has all essential characteristics of today: awesome athletic abilitiy, gameness, easy-going temperament. APBT crosses the pond -Immediate APBT ancestors were Irish and English pit fighting dogs imported to U. S. mid-19th century. -In America, these dogs were used as pit fighters, catch dogs (i.e., for forcibly retrieving stray hogs and cattle) and family guardians -Breeders producing a slightly larger, leggier dog. -From the early part of this century, it is rare to find a specimen over 50 lbs. (with a few notable exceptions). From 1900 to 1975 or so, there was probably a very small and gradual increment in the average weight of APBTs , without any loss in performance abilities. APBT- the name game Throughout 19th century, these dogs were known by many names: -"Pit Terriers", "Pit Bull Terriers", "Half and Half's", "Staffordshire Fighting Dogs", "Old Family Dogs"(the Irish name), "Yankee Terriers"(the Northern name), and "Rebel Terriers"(the Southern name), and more. In 1898, Chauncy Bennet formed the United Kennel Club (UKC) for the sole purpose of registering "Pit Bull Terriers" - American Kennel Club wanted nothing to do with them. -Bennet added "American" and dropped "Pit" from the name, this didn't please everyone so later "Pit" was added back in parentheses as a compromise. - parentheses were later removed from the name Early stardom and the road to distinguish the "official" APBT In 1936, "Pete the Pup" in the "Lil Rascals" and "Our Gang" familiarized a wider audience with the APBT -During this time the APBT was liked in America. -kids of Lil Rascals generation wanted dogs just like "Pete the Pup". AKC now jumped in, registered the breed as "Staffordshire Terrier" - name changed to "American Staffordshire Terrier" (AST) in 1972 ( to distinguish from its smaller English cousin: Staffordshire Bull Terrier) In 1936, the AKC, UKC, and ADBA version of the "Pit Bull" were identical since the original AKC stock came from pit fighting dogs, which were UKC and ADBA registered. Due to different breeding goals, American Staffordshire Terrier and American Pit Bull Terrier split in both phenotype and spirit/temperament, - both continue to have an easy-going, friendly disposition. -Some feel after 60 years of different breeding goals, these dogs are now different breeds, others view them as two strains of same breed (working and show). - ASTs tend to look alike within themselves more than APBTs - APBTs have more wide range of appearance, because historic breeding goal was for performance in contests, not looks -Some game-bred APBTs are practically indistinguishable from typical ASTs, most APBT's are leaner, leggier, lighter on toes, have more stamina, agility, speed, and explosive power. From WWII - early 1980s, -there were only a devoted few who knew the breed in intimate detail. These devotees typically knew much more about their dogs' ancestry than their own--they were often able to recite pedigrees back six or eight generations. They were a small group of knowledgeable dogmen. Where it all went wrong for the modern day APBT: APBTs became popular with public around 1980 - people with little or no knowledge of the breed owned and bred them - these newcomers did not respect traditional breeding goals of the old-time APBT breeders. -they began randomly breeding dogs to mass produce puppies as profitable commodities. - neophytes started selecting dogs for breeding for the trait of human aggressiveness. -Ignorants were owning and producing poorly bred, human-aggressive "Pit Bulls" for a mass market. - media began its propensity for over-simplification and sensationalization, and gave rise to the anti-"Pit Bull" hysteria we now know. - In spite of bad breeding practices over last 15 years or so, vast majority of APBTs remain very human-friendly. The American Canine Temperament Testing Association, which sponsors tests for temperament titles for dogs, reported that 95% of all APBTs that take the test pass, compared with a 77% passing rate for all breeds on average. The APBT's passing rate was the fourth highest of all the breeds tested. The APBT today Today, the APBT is still occasionally used (underground and illegally) as a fighting dog in the United States; pit matches also take place in other countries where there are no laws or where the existing laws are not enforced. However, the vast majority of APBT's--even within the kennels of breeders who breed for fighting ability--never see any action in the pit. - they are loyal, loving, companion dogs, working dogs, and even family pets . One activity that has really grown in popularity among APBT fanciers is weight pulling contests. -Weight-pulls retain something of the spirit of competition of the pit fighting world, but without the blood or sorrow. -APBTs are ideally suited for these contests, in which the refusal to quit counts for as much as brute strength. - APBTs hold world records in several weight classes. Another activity that the APBT is ideally suited for is agility competition, -his athleticism and determination can be widely appreciated. The APBT also continues his popularity as a naturally able bodied hunting dog for bear (where legal) and hog hunting. Some APBTs have been trained and done well in Schutzhund sport -these dogs, however, are more the exception than the rule. APBT's excel more in sport exclusive of the need for human aggression (bitework) or guardianship More information on the history of the breed in Dr. Carl Semencic's book "The World of Fighting Dogs". Books by Richard Stratton SOURCE: History of APBT Michael Burr

I couldn't have hoped for a better turn for this thread. Thanks to SFN for allowing us to educate a little about our breed.

Howdy howdy. I think this is great. A science-based forum engaged in this topic! We can speak in control groups if you wish, because statistics, well...we all know there are three truths out there: (1) You have lies. (2) You have doggone lies. And (3) You have a whole new level of lies: statistics The only control group out there being tested is the amount of "Pit Bull" type dogs (BTW who can identify a "Pit Bull" quickly and correctly? It's trickier than you may think) who have attacked people. Now...there is another group out there which has yet to be considered: ALL the "Pit Bulls" out there who HAVE NEVER ATTACKED ANYONE. The figures would be staggering, especially when you take into consideration how popular the breed has become since the 1980's (thanks again to the media who helped create the machismo thuggish ruggish image people think the "Pit Bull" represents ). Once this group -the huge number of "Pit Bulls" in existance who have never attacked- is figured out, there can be no conclusive or even slightly credible scientific theory about these dogs. Is there anything else to discuss guys? XOXO