Acme

I take it you didn't read all the article or that you misunderstood it. It said, "...Researchers believe that the codex may date to the 7th or 8th century. During this time, many Egyptians were Christian and the codex contains a number of invocations referencing Jesus. ..." It does not follow that the Seth/Christ line is what they referred to as 'referencing Jesus' not to mention they said 'a number of invocations'. Keep in mind 'christ' is the Jewish messiah1 and the term predates its application to Jesus, though I haven't seen it explicitly appended to Seth before. I haven't seen a full text decipherment to see what all is there, but I have to presume that the decipherers know what they mean when they make their claims of referencing Jesus. Now I know you don't like sorting rubble but it seems to me due diligence would have you checking it out.2 Certainly you don't want me to do it what with my research and exegesis being all suspect or such a matter. No, I think that your thinking that believers would be calling foul contradicts what actually goes on with faith healing. (As well as what went on.) Then too, what's the logical fallacy called that refers to how many people that weren't healed aren't counted? Confirmation bias is it? Maybe there were folks calling foul but they were ignored. Ah; the 'no true Scottsman' fallacy. Not healed because they weren't truly faithful or some such I imagine. 'No true Scottsman' again but this time it's the healer and not the healee that wasn't faithful enough. And how would you apply tests to Jesus' healings? Is there some record of the healed being checked up on later to see if they stayed healed? Or some record that they were checked on in the first place to see if they were even sick? What ancient writing records that? I recommend vivisection with Occam's razor. (I should note that not all the apostles were necessarily in on the scam and may have been dupes themselves. Jesus' 'knowing' stage hands may well not have been his disciples at all. Hired hands of the type Jesus is said to have defended and hung with of the criminal persuassion. And certainly they would not be outing him because then they would be confessing to crimes themselves. There is also the matter that as far as historians and/or investigators can ascertain, none of the writers on Jesus actually knew him and so relied on second-third-fourth... hand accounts. Even if they had been witness, modern study has shown just how unreliable first-hand witnesses are in recounting actual events. It is just exactly this disjoint between what is perceived and what actually happens that stage magic relies on. "Nothing up my sleeve, see?" No, but there was something palmed in the other hand. Edit: 1. source 2. Looks like we have to pony up some serious sheckels to read the translation. >>A Coptic Handbook of Ritual Power

The popularity, continuance, and belief in faith healing to this day belies your thinking. In the earlier example I cited concerning the woman 'healed' by touching Jesus' robe when Jesus didn't know she was doing it and only later took credit is another example of flim-flammery style and/or technique. (Not that taking credit for something one is credited with but didn't do is restricted to any particular person or group.) There is also the matter of the placebo effect inasmuch as people were coming to see Jesus expecting to be healed. Moreover as I have pointed out there were no end of magicians making and selling potions and spells who had no shortage of enthusiastic customers and testimonials. While no one commented on that article I cited on the decoded Egyptian papyrus, it supports what I just said as well as adheres 'strictly' to the purported topic of this thread, i.e. it is not a 'Christian' document and invokes Jesus.

It means Jesus was skilled at answering without answering. He speaks but says nothing. He makes the inane appear profound. The magus' verbal analog to the misdirection used in sleight of hand; the secret of the words. He acknowledges this and mocks the disciples without them knowing when he says: "(5) Know what is before thy face, and what hidden from thee shall be revealed unto thee; for there is nothing hidden which shall not be made manifest." (The only magic trick I have found well referenced that dates to Jesus' time and before is the cups & balls which is illustrated in the Hieronymus Bosch painting I posted earlier. The ball -what is hidden- is always shown to you at the trick's conclusion.) Tricks are done right in front of your face and yet even if you know they are tricks you do not know how they are done. Jesus figured this out on his own as boy and turned it to his profession.

I missed your editing this in. Can't really say what I was doing; I jump from interest to interest like frog legs in a hot skillet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamorphic_rock That whole bit was an aside but very interesting. Thanks and very odd how one topic blends in and metamorphoses with the topic of Non-Christian documents. There was a phrase like this in the Gospel of Thomas wasn't there , "split a rock and I'll be there"? That was excessively paraphrased and completely from memory. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/thomas-anon.html You're welcome & nicely put. Nothing is not connected.

Yes it seems correct. (I don't see those temps at the link though?) Anyway, metamorphism is a dynamic process that depends not only on temperature and pressure but what the mineral content of the protolith is, how much water is present, and how long it cooks. A loaf of bread bakes in about 1/2 an hour, but leave it for 4 hours and you have charcoal. The rock I put the picture of was created in a very wet environment and formed when minerals dissolved and the solution found its way into cracks where as temps lowered and pressure was reduced the minerals differentially crystalized. I'll relate that to my metaphor on research in regards to this thread by saying context is everything. While you have some very specific criteria about what constitutes 'accepted' history, it is nothing without the actual data. I have been submitting actual [historical] data and we all can jolly well debate it in terms of your criteria or our own as we see fit. Here here! +1

I have done a fair amount of prospecting and placer mining as well as some schooling in geology. My metaphor applies to seeking anything of great value. Sometimes the great value you find is not the great value you sought. Metamorphose

Feeling better then? The point is that gold is often found where one doesn't expect it and often is not found where one does expect it. It is possible to stumble on a mother load -where the mother load is the hard-rock deposit-, or divine its location through applying data from known loads and matching that to un-prospected locations of similar structure and makeup. However, a more sure method for locating a mother load is to pan through tons of rubble in gold producing placer deposits and work your way upstream until the placer deposits peter out, at which point you know the mother load is on either side and/or under you. Even then one has tons of rock to blast, chisel, chip, shovel, crush and refine to remove the gold. Mining is dangerous and exhausting work and is sometimes its own reward. The true value of people is not determined by their possession, supposed or real, of Truth, but rather by their sincere exertion to get to the Truth. ~Gotthold Ephraim Lessing

Roger. Truth, like gold, is wherever you find it. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer.

Judging by the weight-powered car projects I often see on forums I'd say that a falling weight isn't as much power as you envision. The idea in-and-of-itself is not new. Wind Turbine Gravity Storage: Wind turbines lift weights to store energy circa 2006 Flywheel storage is often proposed and even designed and tested but the problem there seems to be keeping it from flying apart as well as building protection sufficient to prevent a catastrophe when it does. Flywheel energy storage There is also pumping water into a reservoir and releasing it later to drive a turbine generator. Pump Up the Storage

No surprise. I'm sure you are not the only cherry-picker else the Thomas gospel would be in 'the' Bible. Nevertheless, the Thomas infancy gospel is real and more-or-less contemporary with other gospels so it has to be considered as an historical account of Jesus. Believe it or not. Same can be said of other apocryphal texts such as the Gospel of Mary Magdalene etcetera. EDIT: In fact, the point is actually made in Mary's Gospel. To whit: I hadn't thought much on how the tricks were accomplished, but to your credit that's a pretty good shot at 'splaining the sparrow one. Way to think like a stage magician! As to the withering of the boy and the killing & resurrecting of the other boy and the blinding of the family there are many possibilities. Anything from potions/poisons (and possibly antidotes) to employing the 'victims' to play a role. ["I'll give you 5 shekels if you help me prank some people." or "If you don't help me I'll hurt you."] No end of variations on the theme of recruiting confederates. Carrot, stick, or both. Explaining all the tricks sounds like a good challenge for Penn & Teller, though I suspect that publically discounting the miracles of Jesus as mere tricks would not be good publicity. Obviously I have no image or career to protect and so I don't give a muddy sparrow's behind who takes offense.

That part about downloading software is sneaky spam. You can read it for free online at the link I gave. Here it is again: Greek Magic: Ancient, Medieval and Modern (This takes me directly to the text, but if it doesn't do that for you, look for the button to read it online. It was somewhere on the right IIRC, but look for it all around the page.) Evidence that Jesus was a child prodigy and [credited with] pulling tricks at an early age. According to Wiki, the gospel is at earliest contemporary with Luke and most likely first written in the mid- to late-2nd century A.D..Infancy Gospel of Thomas @ Wiki The text: THOMAS'S GOSPEL of the INFANCY of JESUS CHRIST. ~ Addendum: Just ran across this and while I don't have specific argument to make from it does set the stage for the practice of magic in ancient times. (Well, arguably it's not Christian and yet invokes Jesus so I'll specifically argue it's on topic. ) Ancient Egyptian Handbook of Spells Deciphered

I don't see why the distinction is relevant. Did the Jews believe God or gods could die? Show me where they believe one way or another on that point and then maybe we can discuss a god's ressurection. It's about the Jewish belief in resurrecting the dead. That's immaterial to my argument. These ideas -in my view- were Jesus' ideas; his patter script as it were. He was the modeler and it is not that others modeled him. Comparing again to another child prodigy, Jesus' twist on things was no different than Mozart composing original music. People can and do interpret Jesus' words [as reported] and Mozart's music in different ways. Again, we can not prove, i.e. establish as fact, Jesus' existence. We can only make reasoned arguments on the available data. As to the thread topic, it is as I earlier said a non-sequitar. I'll say whatever I please and if you think I'm off topic then report me. Yes I know what I am citing; what I didn't know was exactly what you were referring to so I asked for clarification. The 16th century quote I gave is but one article in the larger citation on magic. If you want to have the full context you need to know and read the source I cite, not just the small amount I am allowed to quote that I find of interest. You jumped on the 16th century date and ignored the context. Let me quote again: source

I think we have all agreed that there is no proof so your asking for it is illogical. It shows that all manner of magic was extant so Jesus would have known of it. The Exodus story of Moses matching his tricks with the Egyptian priests -such as turning the staffs to snakes and back- Jesus would certainly have known about. Collapsing wands are one of the oldest stage tricks and can be made by a child with a bit of paper and it's no stretch to imagine that's how both Moses and the Egyptians did it. Neither is it a stretch to think a bright lad could figure it out. How gracious of you to grant me your endorsement.

Fair enough. I'm retired and had the time and took the time. When I said I love this stuff I was referring to doing research. Your implication is that you will digest my reference so I'll patiently wait for you to do so. Yes of course it is evidence. The issue is figuring out what it is evidence for and it's as much evidence of a sneaky smart-mouthed truculent kid as it is for a loving supernatural being. On that point do you care to comment on the evidentiary character of the Thomas gospel? Granted you may have missed it because of the way the board software jams separate posts together, but do take the time to go back a couple posts and chew on it. Some may have and some may have not. Moses certainly knew that the Egyptians believed in it and I suspect many people knew of the Egyptians' belief. I'll reread your earlier comments on the subject. I only said that you claimed there was no evidence there. Good grief man! I explicitly said I thought he existed. None of which precludes trickery and all of which in fact trickery relies on. Thank you but I don't need your permission to think as I will. I'm not claiming proof of anything; I'm presenting a reasoned argument on the available evidence. 16th century? What manuscript is that? . PS 30 seconds of searching returned this: Jewish Resurrection of the Dead: When and how will the dead will be resurrected? The debate is old, but it has not been entirely resolved

No, you don't understand it very well. Jesus was learning from the priests, not his family. He snuck away to do it and got smart mouthed with the folks when they scolded him. As to the Jewish magic you clearly have not understood the evidence I gave for that and as I say I can't help you there.

I have and rather than attempt to contradict it you simply demand more. I can't help it if you don't understand what I am saying to you. BibleGateway Matthew 4:19New International Version (NIV) 19 “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will send you out to fish for people.” More evidence that Jesus was capable of criminality, disregard for authority, and murder while still a boy. THOMAS'S GOSPEL of the INFANCY of JESUS CHRIST.

You are relying on your heart rather than your head and no evidence I present can broach that chasm. As I said before, good luck with that.

So what? Jesus had his disciples and unlimited resources. They had people feeding them, housing them, giving them money, and spreading the word as they moved from town to town putting on their show. All that besides what they pick-pocketed. Do modern day cons undertake any less preparation for their scams? Itinerant preachers were a dime-a-dozen then as now. As I earlier said, I suspect Jesus was a child prodigy. He was to religious scamming as Mozart was to music.

You implied it. The false bottom basket is set over a cavern with a narrow opening & which holds the food. Every time the magus reaches into the basket the bottom opens and a confederate in the cavern hands up some food. As the magus lifts the food out over the basket rim the bottom closes, he distributes the food to those nearby who see the apparently empty basket and then move away to either eat or pass on the food. Those nearby that can't see into the basket see a small basket from which oviously too much stuff keeps coming out of. A miracle! Rinse and repeat. Seriously, it is a simple trick with endless variations and limited only by the imagination & daring of the magus. Let's not forget the Bible tells us that not only was Jesus preaching at an early age (the patter of magicians), but also that he was a trained carpenter and so would have been quite capable of building the basket (the magicians prop). Meantime, more confederates/disciples of the magus move through the crowd picking their pockets. see >>confidence trick

Either you understand how a false-bottom is used in stage magic or you do not. That you choose to either not learn of it or discount it as inapplicable to the loaves and fishes suggests to me your acceptance of Jesus as your lord outweighs any logical explications. Such an acceptance is the very ideal of gullibility and the daily bread of cons. Allow me to substantiate that. gullible gull dupe A fine ancient example of a variation of a false bottom trick that duped the brightest of the day is the Trojan horse, so in that regard you may consider yourself -in some backwards manner- in good company. Good luck with all that.

No, you fail stage magic 101. Such is the faith of the gullible.

. Yay I say verily, there is more. I'm reading Greek Magic in its entirety and thought I'd pause to post some quotes supportive of my assertions that Jesus was a con man and stage magician. Non-Christian sources duly implicated in some fashion or manner such that I'm kinda sorta partly and/or nearly perfectly on topic. I love this stuff! Note especially the phrase I bolded, which makes clear that stage magic was extant & known at an early time. Since -as I assert and current magicians will attest- stage magic secrets were not revealed or only reveled to the closest and most necessary of confederates, those who don't know how a trick is done must decry it by whatever means & terms they have at hand. I note that the miracle of loaves and fishes is easily explained by a false bottom basket, the same as is used to pull a rabbit out of a hat. ... Oh wait, I forgot this tidbit which is in reply to Eise challenging me to give evidence of Jewish magic in the time of Jesus the magus. On and about pg. 42. Greek Magic: Ancient, Medievil and Modern

Even today people volunteer to be nailed to crosses and they don't die. In The Philippines, Observers Perform Crucifixion Reenactment In Good Friday Ritual (PHOTOS) Here's an article on Egyptian magic trick of decapitating an animal and restoring it whole. Dedi My ideas aren't pulled out of a hat, but based on knowledge I have acquired over scores of years. Let those who have eyes, see. PS Here's what looks like a pretty good source on the history of magic. Mind you none of the tricksters are copping to trickery as the trickery is the big secret. Philosphy of Magic . Addendum: Earlier the magi were mentioned and it's worthwhile to point out the origin of the word in the context of my propositions. Magi is the plural of magus, which means magician. magus PS Here's another reference on ancient magic; this one on the Greeks both pre- and post- Jesus' times. >>Greek Magic: Ancient, Medieval and Modern . Here's an interesting quote which invokes Jesus from the last reference. Here's an ancient quote that seems apropos: Whatever deceives people seems to produce a magical enchantment. ~ Plato

The crucifixion, spear & all, was stage magic designed to deceive the crowd. Retractable blade containing fake blood. As with most stage magic, confederates are part & parcel of the performance. Things are not as they appear, or are reported to appear whether you are sawing a lady in half or nailing a guy to a cross and poking his liver with a spear. I realize this is addressed to John, but my answer is as I just gave. He didn't die because it was a trick and he only played dead. If you're not really dead it's pretty easy to be seen alive. Then leave town and head to India with your confederates to dupe a new set of rubes. One might further suppose Judas didn't hang himself, but either knew or got wind of the scam and either snitched or threatened to snitch and so was dispatched by confederates of Jesus. PS A quick search of 'stage magic of antiquity' returned this result. The illustrated History of Magic

But we don't know that he died. Whether he really died and rose or faked his death and resurrection he wouldn't need an ossuary.