Pangloss

You forgot ScienceForums.net!

Pleiades, you realize it won't "fold" (or do anything else) while it's idle, right? HLT is short for "halt", after all. Sure, you're reducing the overall temperature, but you're not lowering the cost of running folding@home one iota. You're lowering the overall cost of running the computer. If you stopped running F@H you'd see it get even cooler. TANSTAAFL

Well I did sort of nod in that direction, but I'm glad you expanded on it. I'm afraid I'm so rooted in managed code these days that I don't really know a lot about what's happened in that area. Ironically I have used that particular book in the classroom, sub-ing for our game programming instructor. But you're right, and you don't have to go in a managed code direction. If anything we should be encouraging more of that sort of thing around here, because it seems like the industry is almost entirely focused on client-server database programming these days, much to all of our detriment.

There are a number of different ways to begin to approach making "forms". (You'll hear that term "forms" a lot to describe the visual interface for GUI programs.) But you're going to have to make a decision as to what platform you want to work with. If you're okay with developing Windows programs that won't run on other platforms, you can work with something like Visual Studio (which probably is the best IDE on the planet right now). If you're not okay with that, and want to write apps that work on Windows, Linux or Mac computers, you will probably want to consider making the switch to Java (which should be very easy for you to do -- it's a very similar language) and then you can take advantage of some of the excellent Java IDEs, such as NetBeans, Eclipse or JBuilder. This approach has the slight disadvantage of requiring Windows end users to download a Java component called the JRE, which used to be a problem but it's pretty stable these days. I believe there are still some aging C++ IDEs out there that are independent of Microsoft that will let you build and compile a standalone C++ program for Windows and other platforms, but you'll have to look around. Perhaps someone else can add some relevent information to this thread. Good luck!

Well if that's not a plateful of ideological preconceptions, I don't know what is.

Um, no. Having two cores does mean that it can process two threads at the same time, as you point out. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't consume ANY energy. So your conclusion that you're donating "clock cycles you don't need" is false. If the computer is sitting idle, it's sitting idle. If it's processing data, it's not sitting idle, and it is consuming more electricity. Again, I'm just dispelling myths and misconceptions here, not trying to cast any negative aspersions on distributed computing or worthy causes. I just think people should understand that what they're donating is not "free" or "spare" or "unused" or "just by keeping your PC on", etc. There is a cost.

No, it's not just a matter of simply "keeping your PC on", it's a matter of having it consume full-load CPU power at personal cost to you. It costs THEM nothing, but it can cost you $10-30/year or more (in theory). People have a general impression that they're contributing "free CPU cycles", which was understandable back when CPUs used very little power. Today's CPUs can use 100 watts or more. So the question becomes "Would you leave a 100 watt lightbulb on 24/7 for this cause?" Still nothing WRONG with it, of course, and as I pointed out above, the cost is generally pretty low. And it could very well be a noble and valuable contribution (or are you just giving someone else a valuable patent opportunity?). But people should understand that it's not free. Note that many of the newest CPUs consume considerably LESS power than the previous generation, and some of the most powerful ones are down to peaking at around 65 watts or so. That's much better, but it's still a considerable amount of power and those are not the CPUs that are currently installed in people's machines.

The Core 2 Duo Macs are pretty viable options these days, especially with Boot Camp (able to boot either OS X or Windows). I have an iBook G4 and even without the Windows capability it's still pretty useful. I picked it up cheap to replace an old laptop that my wife uses to do spreadsheet work, and we toss it around the entertainment room for internet access without having to get up and walk back to the computer room. It runs Excel, connects to my wireless access point, backs up to my NAS, and even lets me do a remote desktop to my Windows machines. For non-computer-savvy types, I think it's a better option than Linux, if only for the durable, attractive hardware and overly simple interface. In fact in some ways it's a better option than Windows. Apple does "simple" really well. But it's also a fun box to play with for computer-savvy types, and people who just like playing with operating systems. (Remember when that was cool?)

The ancient Romans, which were a lot like modern western civ nations, were familiar with our modern moral concepts, but saw religion in a very different way. For them religion was about fear and superstition, rather than hope and faith. Do the right thing or deal with the consequences; that sort of thing. But they knew full well that taking a bribe wasn't just against the law, it was bad for society. They understood the concept of precedence (the "golden rule") and knew full well why, for example, the Republic was failing at the time of Caesar. A useful example can be seen in the story of Quintus Servilius Caepio, whom Caesar no doubt grew up hearing about from grown men who spat in the streets at the sound of the name. Christianity's historical impact on morality is that it changed the way people interoperate with specific moral concepts. But it didn't change our definitions of the morals themselves.

It's interesting (and revealing) that Mokele actually found it necessary to demonize the question as flawed reasoning. The implication being that it's necessary and natural for scientists to follow a liberal rather than conservative line. Anything else must be flawed reasoning. This is a typical ideological argument, and just proves my point, which is that scientists (on average) are just as ideological as anybody else. They're just as ready to throw logic and reasoning out the window in the face of human suffering as the average television journalist. I don't think it necessarily follows that scientists become capitalists either (regardless of where the money to fund their research comes from). But I don't think you can say that scientists naturally flow into one ideology or another. IMO, there is every bit as much hypocrisy and leaping-to-conclusions amongst liberal scientists as their is amongst conservative ones.

That's actually one of those questions that's almost moot when it comes to Windows. Almost every single computer sold today goes out with either XP and a Vista coupon, or Vista already installed. That's millions of computers per month. It'd be the most successful operating system launch in the history of the planet even if it didn't sell a single unit. That's one of my personal pet peeves about the situation -- the fact that millions of people are going to start using it (and demanding my time to fix their problems, with no help from Microsoft) right away, in spite of being advised to the contrary.

I take it seriously. And don't you think we should focus on whether or not the problem actually exists, and our own personal opinions on it, rather than what "nobody thinks anymore"? I think people should post their own opinions, rather than trying to speak for the majority.

You read my mind, I was just about to follow up on that very thread (so to speak). I was about to point out that much of what's happening in Vista's expanding and contracting footprint is about managing permanent storage media. Improving the performance of Virtual Memory has been a thorn in everyone's side (regardless of the OS) for years now. Buffering more information from the hard drive is one approach. Vista (and OS X 10.4 or 10.5, one of the two, iirc) also have the ability to use Flash memory either poked into a USB slot or as part of a hard drive equipped with such on its controller card. This is an important advance in dealing with this bottleneck and while it may seem silly at first glance (the throughput of USB 2.0 being somewhat less than that of SATA, for example), it actually turns out to be quite beneficial (mainly due to virtually instantaneous seek times). In addition, Vista is probably the most advanced operating system on the table right now with regard to working with multithreaded applications in multiple-core configurations. Linux has always had a natural edge in this area, but when a company with tens of billions of dollars in cash and zero debt throws a thousand engineers at a problem, things tend to happen. Whatever we learn from all of this will benefit ALL operating systems, not just Windows. All of this stuff will be studied by academia over the next few years and important advances will pass back and forth between the Windows, Linux and Apple worlds, benefiting all of us. But that's computer science, not casual usage. As I said above, I recommend casual users hold off on Vista for now. It's actually a pretty good time for a smart casual user to check out Fedora or Debian or some other popular distro, or snap up a good deal on a used iMac and check out OS X 10.4 or the 10.5 release due next month. Then try out Vista this fall (or if it comes with a new computer). See which one suits YOUR needs best.

"Unfair" seems like an odd word to apply to a commercial product. It's not like they don't sell it to black people. Are we going to need some federal laws to determine fairness in operating systems now? Maybe handicap Microsoft a few gigabytes of HD footprint and set them a federally mandated memory size, just so Linux can compete? (grin) But sure, I understand your point. It's reasonable to wonder why Vista's footprint has to be so large compared with other operating systems, and based on that chagrin decide that another operating system is better suited to your needs. Go for it. We all benefit from that competition. But that question should be answered correctly, not through assumptions. It's pretty silly to assume that Vista's large footprint means one thing or another. Asking = good. Assuming = agenda/prejudice/fanboyness = poor choices. What's also silly is to, as some people do, remonstrate Microsoft for making a product that caters to the lowest common denominator. Catering to the lowest common denominator is what lead to the cheap computer you're running Linux on right now. (You're welcome.) Competition is good for everyone. Putting ANY one product on a platform, regardless how politically correct its technical features may be, is a bad thing. So my advice is: Worry less about buzz words and more about what you need to get your job done. That's what leads to better computers, not popular fanboyisms. (And btw, for those of you whose "job" is downloading illegal music and going to class, then sit back, pay attention, STFU, and let the grownups sort it out. When you can pay for your own computer, I'll be happy to listen to what you have to say.)

Oh. Well, the "15 years behind the times" comment is an example of what I consider to be one of the main flaws of progressive reasoning -- the idea that forward momentum in a specific ideological direction is both sensible and necessary. Like saying "why do we still have biggotry in the year 2007". To oversimplify for a moment, conservatives focus on personal responsibility and find annoyance in their perception that liberals want to reject personal responsibility and blame outside influences for people's problems, using it as an excuse to build a socialist system. (That's the "conservative mythology" bit you mentioned earlier, which I agree is a straw man.) To continue the oversimplification, liberals focus on finding "root causes", and find annoyance in their perception that conservatives want to reject any notion that circumstance plays a role in events and basically kick people while their down. But in fact this is just another ideological straw man, and it is no more accurate than the first example.

Vista's memory profile expands or contracts to fit the total memory load. It'll actually run on a 256mb machine, just poorly. It has a nice sweet spot at 4gb, or so I keep reading. I'm running it on a 2gb machine as I write this, and it's consuming about half a gig at the moment. I've read that on a 4gb machine it'll expand to 1.5gb. But on a smaller machine it'll use less. XP does the same thing, btw (shrinking and expanding), just not as effectively. Almost everything about Vista is better than XP, but I concur with the advice to wait. Many programs and peripherals are problematic or just plain broken at the moment. Some software suppliers are actively fighting or resisting upgrades and patches to their products. And all the technical support chores are falling on guys like us (people who know something about computers) to deal with. It's a nightmare. Best to wait a while. That having been said, if you're a bleeding-edge kind of person or just enjoy toying with operating systems, by all means, grab and load. Incidentally, OS X versions 10.3 and earlier don't compare well with Vista. Only 10.4 (the latest) is comparable, and from what I understand 10.5 may turn out to be better in a number of ways. I run Vista on one machine and 10.3 on another, so I have some personal experience here. KDE and Gnome don't really compare very well with either product in terms of HCI, IMO. But they do look decent and your experience may vary. They certainly have their fanatics... er, I mean fans.

That and (as the Cap'n's article points out) HD video content. There are some real interesting issues there that suggest a real battle under way that consumers are only dimly aware of. It can't be viewed as a situation where Microsoft is taking a hardline stance, but it does appear that they're a bit uncertain about how to proceed. Apple's been having similar problems, and actually I can't point to any company that really understands or deals with any of these issues in a thoroughly consistent manner. Sony is another example of the left hand (legal) often not knowing or understanding what the right hand (engineering) is doing. In Microsoft's case (as the article above points out) these issues have direct ramifications (e.g. "suicide"), because MS intends that Vista be used as a "media PC" (read: "Tivo+"). But how can we do that if its HD functionality is crippled? But IS its HD functionality actually crippled (or are there just a lot of misunderstandings), and if so is it a permanent situation or did MS just... screw up? These are questions that are still to be fully resolved, IMO. None of which has any impact on whether you can save those scratchy old low-bit-rate MP3 files on a Vista machine. I guess the horse is so far out of the barn on the subject of music that even the lawyers don't care anymore. I keep coming back to a NASCAR analogy. There was not one thing under a single hood at the Daytona 500 last weekend that couldn't be found in an engine in *1955*! But any *fan* could log in to the NASCAR web site and get a real-time data stream from any of the cars in the field showing everything from engine speed to oil temperature. The difference in technological level is astounding, and all because the people who run the race feel it's necessary to control the paramters with an iron fist. It's not hard to understand why they feel that way, but it's also easy to shoot holes the size of blown V8 engines in their reasoning. I'd hate to see that happen to the home electronics industry. The "suicide" danger they talk about in the Cap'n's article is on the part of the entire industry right now, not just Microsoft, and it's a real threat, IMO. But with any luck it'll work out like it did with music, with new digital-age options eventually convincing the legal types that as long as they adapt to the times, MOST of their customers will stay legit, and that's good enough.

Interesting points. One thing we kinda have to keep in mind (as this question keeps coming up in ScienceForums) is that there are different kinds of beginners. I work with true beginners -- kids and adult career-changers who know literally nothing about programming and often aren't really motivated to learn more -- they may be more interested in database or network administration type work. This is a dilemma for educators, because good curriculum could inspire a great programmer to emerge out of someone who didn't realize it was something they could do. The school used to use Visual Basic, not so much because it's a better language than anything else for beginners (it's just as arcane as anything else, IMO), but because they had a plethora of educational materials (read: "textbooks") to choose from. But recently we've started using something called "Alice", which is an open-source, natural-language processor that's actually intended to be used primarily as a 3d authoring system for game worlds. We found a great textbook that focuses on using Alice as a tool for learning OOP concepts (by building simple but interesting 3d environments), and I think it's very effective. After all, what motivates beginning programmers the most is when they see their programs come to life due to their own efforts, and Alice does that really well. And it keeps students off the Microsoft teat a little longer in the bargain. Which is especially good because after that they go through a couple quarters of VB, then ASP.NET. Then they graduate. Hopefully able to do a loop and use an IF statement. Maybe. But they're not CS majors; they're IT majors. They just need a "familiarity" with programming concepts. We may not get these guys much past simple programs, but hopefully we lay a foundation and give them a chance. I think most of our members here at ScienceForums start at a little higher level and have loftier goals than that. But it's possible some of our visitors could benefit from something like Alice as well. It's hard to say because we just have no idea what level people are at when they show up and post here. So I may toss out the Alice suggestion as well, in future threads like this. It may sound silly, but I'm a firm believer that the greatest programmer in the world could very well a 57 year old plumber in Hoboken who's never touched a computer in his life. Giving that guy a chance is what makes my job fun.

You could be right. That kind of reasoning is almost as ridiculous as the "he cares and he's black" nonsense I posted about above. The story going around today was about pot-shots between the Obama and Clinton campaigns, stirred up by a pro-Obama party in Hollywood and a follow-up op-ed piece by record mogul David Geffen attacking Clinton, which she responded to as if it had come from Obama. Pretty nasty stuff for 20 months before the election!

The "outsider" thing worked for Clinton and GW Bush as well. I think Bascule made a very astute observation above, but the sad thing about it is that it says something BAD about our society. People are "for Obama" because he meets an ideological expectation that isn't ruined by a reality check. It's almost like they're saying "He cares, and he's black. What could possibly go wrong?"

Sorry, I don't understand your question.

Those are actually good points about Java, but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad language to learn. I think students SHOULD be exposed to flaws in programming languages (and have to deal with them) early in their learning curve.

What about unpopular languages that SHOULD be popular? That might make an interesting thread as well. I note, for example, the continued, against-all-odds growth of Ruby.

Anyway, to answer the original post, Vista does not prevent the user from playing MP3 or video files that lack DRM encoding. That would stop you from making your own videos or ripping your own CDs. (When you rip music from a CD no DRM is included with the file.) I don't download illegal music so I can't answer the original question from personal experience, but I can tell you that I've ripped a CD under Vista and then burned a new MP3 CD (actually I prefer high-bitrate WMA) from the resulting material and played that CD on my car stereo (with the original CD safely tucked away on a shelf where it belongs). Clearly no DMA was added by Vista, or I would not have been able to do this.

Fanboy Linux posts have been and will be removed from this thread. This member has asked a question and his answer does not involve Linux in any way, shape or form. If you can't be helpful, do not post.