Pangloss

I'm moving this over to the General forum since it's not a political discussion. I'll leave a stub in Politics to help people find it.

Oh of course that's what they'll do. But it just underscores my point. Two wrongs don't make a right, after all. I imagine they'll also trot out the concept of how a democratic society needs to have the ability to overthrow dictators, etc. This keys in with the far left's perception that not only is Bush a "national tragedy", but everyone in their right mind sees it exactly the same way, and if they don't then they need to have that fact explained to them, clearly and succinctly. It's not a question of logic and listening, it's a matter of indoctrination. Faith is not a monopoly of the far right. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

This is an interesting report that came out last week and I'd been meaning to start a thread on it myself, so thanks. The main thrust of the story (which the article linked above covers pretty well) is that the tobacco companies seem to be spiking nicotine levels in certain brands (some interestingly more than others). One of the more interesting aspects of this is how we know it to be the case -- because we have previous records of nicotine levels in the same brands from previous studies and litigation. So we know the levels are going up, and the accusation seems to be that they want to protect their existing customer base (even as they sponsor advertising telling us that it's good to quit smoking). It's a particularly twisted and sinister scenario, even by tobacco company standards, isn't it? Of course the government, and by extension the voting public, has put itself in a real bind here, because of "the Settlement", which has been a complete joke in some ways. This seems to be a nice book-end to the recently-discussed issue of how settlement proceeds are spent (with some states ignoring anti-smoking efforts and throwing it right into the general fund), and one can't help but see this as a double whammy for smokers hoping to find new help to quit.

Even if we were to agree that all of this is true, it doesn't contradict my point. It simply extends the amount of stuff they're willing to draw on in order to find the useful demons they need to exert their power. Put another way, it wouldn't matter if not one single American had left this country in a century, we had no trade relations with any foreign countries, and exported nothing but our television signals (unintentionally). They'd latch on to those uncontrolled television signals or some other aspect of our society, declare it to be evil and in contradiction to the Koran, and leverage that to control their people. Um. You're right, Jim. Islamo-fascism it is.

Several off-topic posts have been removed.

Let's be civil in this thread, please. I just had to delete a post.

What about firing rockets into civilian areas from the Gaza Strip? That tactic wasn't limited to Hezbollah in Lebanon, you know. Also a number of Hamas-lead suicide bombers have been captured before they could complete their missions, complete with video tapes already done. That's circumstantial evidence, of course, but it's a valid point for discussion. I think you can make the case that there's no new Intefada at the moment, sure, but whether that's due to Hamas consolidating power or some sort of real peace initiative is highly debatable. In fact I would even go so far as to say that nobody really sees a serious desire for peace on Hamas' part -- they refuse to even acknowledge Israel and/or remove language calling for its destruction from their political platform.

The Taliban rose to power without any abuse from the west, and even arguably its support during the Afghan war. The "destroy all non-Muslims" claims may be exaggerated (everyone participates in what might be called "trash-talking" at that level) and I might even agree that if left alone the region might be more peaceful, but I don't think anyone can make the argument (and I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth here) that "Islamofacism" or Muslic terrorism groups would never have arisen without the west's involvement in the region. It would have happened simply due to normal trade relations.

Top Ten Reasons Hurricane Season is Like Christmas 10. Decorating the house (boarding up windows) 9. Dragging out boxes that haven't been used since last season (camping gear, flashlights) 8. Last minute shopping in crowded stores 7. Regular TV shows pre-empted for "specials" 6. Family coming to stay with you 5. Family and friends from out-of-state calling 4. Buying food you don't normally buy ... and in large quantities 3. Days off from work 2. Candles And the number one reason Hurricane Season is like Christmas ... At some point you know you're going to have a tree in your house!

I really enjoyed "The School of Rock", but that movie had a certain depth that other comedic endeavors that Jack Black has been involved in have lacked. He has potential, but his choices lately haven't been the best.

We have a thread on this on the Astronomy board already, but I thought it interesting enough to go ahead and mention it here. The ESA is crashing its SMART-1 probe into the lunar surface in a dark region of the moon facing the Earth, tomorrow night (Saturday night) at 10:41pm Pacific, 1:41am Eastern time. The crash supposedly will produce enough light to see it by if you're watching at the right moment. (Ironically the crash will only be visible here in the Americas -- Europeans won't get to see it!) Some info here, including visual aids: http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/watchtheskies/30aug_smart1.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_1

Do they? Alan Greenspan didn't think so. http://www.polyconomics.com/searchbase/06-12-98.html

No, it's not "my argument". I don't have an argument from a position on this yet. At the moment I'm discussing practical matters. I haven't decided if I'm in favor of a national ID card or not. I think both sides make valid arguments, although I must say that the cost to poor people is simply not one of them, nor is the number of cards we carry in our wallet. If people can find room for a dozen credit cards then they can make a slot for a national ID card. And with all the lost birth records and certificates each year, another form of ID that one could use to confirm for a driver's license or passport might actually be useful. In purely practical terms. (Those of us who have been around long enough for our birth hospital to forget about us know all about practical applications of identity paperwork.) I don't know what the situation is in the UK, but in the US the individual states manage birth certificates and driver's license information on their own, and the systems are not interconnected. There are national systems for Passports, Social Security and the federal income tax, but each of those systems has pitfalls, such as the fact that not everyone has to pay tax, and not everyone who is legally in the country is a citizen. What information you can "find out about me" on the Internet is not at issue here. If the government doesn't manage that information, then it's not of value for official purposes.

Sure it does, it gives you a national database for tracking purposes without adding a second ID card to everyone's wallet.

Not everyone gets a driver's license, and the problem of multiple redundant IDs can be solved by just letting the state attach a driver's license rider to a national ID card. (shrug)

(That was a joke, btw.)

Blasphemer!

Dak, that's an excellent response. Of course, it leaves one in a precarious "two wrongs" position, but it definitely underscores the point (at least with me) that this is really one of those "_____ don't kill, people do" arguments. But I think the anti-Islam faction here (if they'll forgive me for calling it that) is actually quite supportive of this argument -- I've seen them (Bettina for example) acknowledge that there are plenty of Muslims (if not most of them) who are non-violent. So that brings us back to the validity of the question of whether Islam promotes violence, which is a question that is not answered by evidence that Catholicism promotes violence as well. Of course the question may ultimately be unanswerable, and the best we can do is understand the "religions don't kill, people do" argument, and make the best of it.

Haha! Best retort I've seen in weeks. (grin)

Actually it's interesting that they have that particular number, because it suggests that the post originates from shortly after 9/11, when the number was still believed to be much higher than it turned out to be. It dates the post, in a sense. I haven't checked the "netmyth" sites on this, but I imagine it's posted on some of them to show accuracy/inaccuracy. I hear you, Bettina, but see things differently. To me if it's true then it's verification of the need for objectivity and persistence in debate. Not to mention the importance of listening. Humans are very poor at full duplex communication.

This is a post that's flying around certain boards right now. I offer it up not as evidence that Islam is a violent religion, but rather to try and home in on the *discussion* about whether Islam is a violent religion. The point being that after a while the "yeah but they're all just straw men" argument wears a little thing. I'm not even trying to vouch for the authenticity of all of these points, mind. Heck, I haven't even read them all. I'm just saying that the people who are taking up that position have a prima fascie case, and if we're going to have a true open debate on the subject, then their case deserves to be heard. ----------- In July 1968, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) hijacked Israeli El Al Airplanes. In 1970, Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) killers attacked bus in West Bank, killing Barbara Ertle of Michigan and wounding two others from the US. In March 1970, PFLP lodged rockets at US Embassy, Beirut, as well as the American Insurance Company, Bank of America and John F. Kennedy library. In September 1970, PFLP murderers took hold of four airliners, three of which were blown up. In March 1972, PFLP engaged the Japanese Red Army to machine-gun and grenade attack Israel's main airport. Twenty-six were slain, 78 wounded, many from the US. In September 1972, Arab killers attacked Olympic Village, Munich, Germany, kidnapping nine Israelis and slaying two others. A grenade slaughtered athletes while others were trying to rescue them. A German policeman is slain. Jews killed totaled eleven. In 1973, Back September Muslim killers slew US ambassador, Cleo A. Noel, and charge d'affaires and a Belgian diplomat. In June 1976, Arab killers hijacked an Air France flight from Tel Aviv. In August 1976, PFLP attacked Israel's main airline, El Al. Four were slain, 20 injured. In March 1977, Muslim murderers took 134 hostages near the White House. One is slain, 12 wounded, in the seizing of the Islamic Center, the international headquarters of B'nai Brith and Washington's City Hall. In February 1979, the US ambassador to Afghanistan is slain by Afghan militia. In November 1979, Muslims take over US Embassy in Tehran, Iran; 66 diplomats are held hostage. Also, in that month the US Embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan, is taken by Muslim murderers. The building is set ablaze, killing four. In June 1981, Muslim killers slay Coptics in their burnt out homes in Egypt. Eighty-one Coptics died with more than a hundred gravely wounded. Eighty houses were destroyed and looted. In the same month, Anwar Sadat, Egyptian President, was slain by members of the Takfir Wal-Hajira sect. Eight others were murdered at Sadat's reviewing stand. In January 1982, Lebanese killers murder American military attache Lt. Col. Charles R. Ray as he leaves his apartment. In August 1982, PLO killers slay two from the US who were eating out at a Jewish restaurant in Paris. In the same month, Lebanese murderers slew an American embassy employee by releasing a bomb under his car. In September 1982, Muslim killers slew Lebanese Prime Minister Bashir Gemayel via a car bomb in Beirut. In March 1983, five Marines are slain by Islamic Jihad and Al-Amal militia. In April 1983, an Islamic suicide car-bomber kills 63 at the US Embassy in Beirut. Inured: 120. Islamic Jihad claimed planners of the attack. In October 1983, 241 US Marines were slain by Islamic Jihad. They were killed in their Beirut barracks. Also, 50 UN peacekeepers were slain at the French military barracks. In December 1983, Five were killed, 86 wounded in Kuwait City when Islamic killers set off car bombs in front of the US and French embassies. In January 1984, American University of Beirut Prescient Malcolm Kerr was slain by Islamic Jihad. In April 1984, eighteen American service personnel were slain by Islamic killers in Torrejon, Spain. In September 1984, Islamic Jihad damaged the US Embassy in Lebanon, killing two Americans, twenty Americans wounded. In April 1985, American service personnel were slain by Muslims in Madrid, Spain. In June 1985, Lebanese Shiite murderers threatened Captain John Testrake in his cockpit of hijacked TWA Flight 847. Muslims kill US Navy diver Robert Stethem, tossing his body around carelessly. In August 1985, a US soldier is slain by Muslims in Frankfurt. In October 1985, PLO killers hijack Italian cruise liner. A 69-year-old man is shot in his wheelchair, then thrown overboard in his wheelchair. In November 1985, EgyptAir Flight 648 is hijacked by Muslim killers. Fifty-eight were slain or burnt alive. In December 1985, Muslim slayers killed 20 at US and Israeli check-in desks in Rome and Vienna international airports. In that same month, Abu Nidal's group seized El Al offices in Rome. Thirteen were slain, five being from the US, 74 wounded. In May 1986, TWA Flight 840 was shot through, leaving a hole in its side. A bomb explosion was set loose by Arab Revolutionary Cells. Also, four from the US were slain when a bomb exploded on a TWA jet going from Rome to Athens. The ARC claimed responsibility. In April 1986 Americans were bombed in a West Berlin restaurant. In September 1986, Muslim killers hijacked Pan Am 747, leaving 20 slain. In October 1986, an American was murdered by a grenade leveled by Fatah at the Western Wall, Jerusalem. In February 1989, bookstores in Berkeley, CA were bombed by Muslims in protest of Salman Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses." In March 1989, US Navy Captain Will C. Rogers' wife is attacked by a car bomb. In October 1991, Ankara, Turkey, a US soldier is slain and his wife wounded by Turkish Islamic Jihad. In the same month, a US Air Force sergeant is slain via car bombing with Turkish Islamic Jihad claiming responsibility. In November 1991, American University, Beirut, administration building is bombed, killing one and wounding over 12 more. In March 1992, Muslims attack and kill an Archpriest, a Monk, and three laypersons at the St. Mary's Monastery, El-Mouharak, Asyut. In that same month, Hizbullah said it blasted the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina, killing 29, wounding 242. In October 1992, Islamics attack, destroy and loot homes in El-Qousya, Asyut. In January 1993, a Palestinian shoots two CIA employees, wounding three others near CIA headquarters, Langley, VA. In that same month, Ramzi Yousef was judged as heading up the 1993 World Trade Center bombing as well as the 1994 explosion on Philippine Airlines Flight 434. In February 1993, six were killed by Islamic murderers. They set loose explosives in the World trade Center. In the same month, a Cairo café attack slew three via bomb. In April 1993, former US President George Bush was under assassination attack while in Kuwait. In June 1993, Islamics ambush UN peacekeeping personnel, killing 23. In August 1993, Islamics kill 4 from US in Somalia. In September 1993, Muslim murderers shot down US UH-60 blackhawk over Mogadishu. Servicemen's bodies were strewn in the streets. In October, American service personnel's bodies were dragged through the avenues of Mogadishu. In July 1994, a bomb explosion set by Islamics in Buenos Aires, laid low Jewish organization headquarters, killing over 85, wounding over 200. In December 1994, an Islamic bomb on Philippine Airlines Flight 434 killed Haruki Ikegami, Japanese businessman. In that same month, Armed Islamic Group took hold of Air France Flight to Algeria. In March 1995, Islamics opened fire on US Consulate van in Karachi, slaying two US diplomats and wounding a third. In September 1995, a grenade was thrown through the US Embassy window, Moscow. In November 1995, a car bomb at Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, US military location slew seven, wounding 60. Islamist Movement for Change and Fighting Advocates of God took responsibility. In that same month, a suicide bomber killed 16 at the Egyptian Embassy, Islamabad, Pakistan. In February 1996, Muslims in Egypt took a Coptic village, leveling homes, animal, crops and fields. In June 1996, a fuel truck exploded near Dharan, Saudi Arabia with 19 Americans slain by Husbollah. In August 1996, French Archbishop of Oran's home was bombed, slaying him and his chauffeur. The Algerian Armed Islamic Group did it. In December 1996, a Paris subway train was exploded, killing four, wounding 86. In February 1997, a dozen Coptic Christians are killed while worship in their Abu Quorcas church. In the same month, an Islamic teacher fired at tourists at the Empire State Building New York, NY. A Danish national was killed, visitors were wounded. In November 1997, Islamics slew four American auditors for Union Texas Petroleum Company and their Pakistani driver in Karachi. The Islamic Inqilabi Council and the Aimal Secret Committee said they did it. In the same month, 58 were slain by murderers at the Hatshepsut's Temple, Egypt. In August 1998, bombs bases the US embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. Blasts slew 247 in Nairobi and 10 in Dar es Salaam, more then 5000 wounded. In November 1999, rockets fired at US Information Services cultural center and UN offices in Islamabad, Pakistan, wounded Pakistani guard. In January 2000, Coptic Christians' funeral in El-Kosheh, Egypt, due to Muslim murderers' attack. In October 2000, USS Cole's port side view shows damage via Muslim attack via bomb explosion during refueling in Aden, Yemen. Seventeen sailors were slain, 30 wounded. Bin Laden: the ship sailed "to its doom. . .(along a course of ) false arrogance, self-conceit, and strength." In December 2000, Muslim on his way to bomb Los Angeles Airport is arrested at US / Canadian border. He has over 100 pounds of explosives in his vehicle. Algerian Ahmed Ressam informs authorities that he was schooled in a camp in Afghanistan, the latter overseen by bin Laden. On September 11, 2001, Islamic killers international highjack planes, then crash into the World Trade Center, New York, killing more than 5000. Soon thereafter another hijacked plane smashes into the Pentagon. Sixty-four passengers and crew as well as 125 military and civilian personnel were slain with 80 wounded. Another hijacked plane with 44 onboard crashed into Shanksville PA field. All were slain by Arab Islamic zealots. In October 2001, Muslim murderers slay worshipers in Tomata Indonesian church. In the same month, Muslim killers shoot into church, slaying 18, in Bahawalpur, Model Town, Pakistan. In December 2001, Muslim murderers slay Christian community, killing five, in Vwang, Nigeria. In January 2002, Daniel Pearl, Wall Street Journal reporter, was kidnapped by Muslim murderers in Karachi. He was later slain. In February 2002, worshipers in a Coptic Church in Egypt were set afire. In that same month, three Christians were murdered by Islamics in Ilorin, Nigeria. In that same month in Amman, Jordan, a vehicle was blown apart via car bomb, slaying an Egyptian and Iraqi laborer. The car was owned by the wife of the head of the Jordanian Anti-Terrorism Unit. In March 2002 in Islamabad Pakistan, five are slain via grenade in a church. Forty-seven are wounded. In April 2002 in Tunisia, Islamic suicide bombers kills 26 in historic synagogue. Islamic Army for the Liberation of the Holy Sites says they did it. In the same month, Muslim killers slay twelve worshipers in a Christian village, leaving six wounded. In May 2002 in Pakistan, a bus exploded, murdering 12 and wounding 19. Al-Qaida was suspected. In the same month in Kapiisk, Russia, Muslim murderers set loose a bomb in the bushes that slew 42, wounding 150 others. Islamic al-Qaida suspected. In May 2002, car bombs explode near US Consulate and Marriott Hotel in Karachi, Pakistan with eleven dead and 51 wounded. Al-Qaida suspected. In June 2002, Islamic killers fired into a Neelum Valley, Pakistani bus, forcing it over a cliff, killing 10 persons, injuring 12 others. In July 2002, grenades thrown into tourists in Mansebra. In August 2002, six missionaries taken, two beheaded, in the Philippines. In Jhika Gali, Murree, Pakistan, at a Christian missionary school six are slain and four wounded in Islamic murdering attack against believers. In August 2002, Kabul Afghanistan witnesses bomb explosion outside UN guesthouse, two wounded. Muslim killers suspected. In September 2002 in Ahmedabad India, Muslims attack and slay Hindu monks and dozens of worshipers in a temple. Lashkar-e-Toiba takes responsibility. In October 2002 in Dhabbah, Yemen, explosives kill one and wound four on French oil tanker Limburg. In October 2002 in Kuwait, Muslims kill one US Marine and wound another as the latter are conducting a non-live-fire exercise. In the same month in Bali, 187 tourists are slain by Muslim murderers at San Club on Legian Street. Al-Qaida told press they did it. In November 2002 in Mombaasa Kenya, 15 killed by suicide bomber, 40 wounded. Al-Ittihad suspected. In the same month in Mombasa Kenya, two SA-7 Strela antiaircraft missiles were launched but missed downing a Arkia Boeing 757. Al-Qaida, the Government of Universal Palestine in Exile, and the Army of Palestine claimed they did it. In December 2002 in Makassar Indonesia, McDonald's restaurant is exploded via bomb, 3 killed, 11 wounded. Laskar Jundullah did it. In December 2002, three worshipers are slain and fourteen wounded in church in Daska Pakistan. Muslims are suspected. In February 2003, Muslims kill fourteen and wound 8 worshipers in Christian village in Philippines. In March 2003 in Mindanao, Philippines, a bus is attacked by Moro Islamic Liberation Front, killing nine and injuring four. In April 2003 in Davao Philippines, a bomb kills 15 and wounds 55. Jemaah Islamiyah is responsible. In May 2003, suicide bombers storm a residential complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, leaving 35 dead, wounding 200. Al-Qaeda suspected. In May 2003, bomb attacks in Casablanca fly into restaurant, hotel, Jewish cemetery, Jewish Community Center and Belgian Consulate, leaving 33 dead and 101 wounded. Salfiya Jihadiya suspected. In July 2003, a Catholic priest in Ranala Kot, Pakistan, was shot and slain in his home. Muslim "fundamentalists" are said to have done it. In August 2003, Jakarta, Indonesia, Marriott hotel is bombed, killing 10, wounding 150. Jemaah Islamiyah suspected. In the same month, a truck exploded in Baghdad, Iraq, killing 23, wounding 100. In September 2003, a car bomb exploded near UN headquarters, killing a guard and wounding 18 in Baghdad, Iraq. In October 2003, a car bomb exploded at Baghdad Hotel housing US and Iraqi officials, leaving 38 dead and 45 wounded. In November 2003, a rocket was set loose in Kabul, Afghanistan. Taliban and al-Qaida suspected. In December 2003, Kerbala government and foreign troops' buildings were attacked by Muslim suicide squads, killing 19, wounding 120. In the same month, in Baghdad, Iraq, car bombs exploded outside Nabil Restaurant, eight killed, 35 wounded. In January 2004 in Marathiwat, Thailand, Islamic killers stormed an armory, setting it on fire as well as burning 18 schools, leaving four dead and an unknown number wounded. In the same month, suicide car bombs strike US-led coalition's offices in Baghdad, Iraq, killing 31. In February 2004, Islamic killers blow up an automobile packed with explosives in a crowd of Iraqis lined up outside an army recruiting building in Baghdad. In the same month, Muslim murderers slay 49 farming community laborers in Nigeria. They had taken refuge in a church. In the same month in Manveles, Philippines, Abu Sayyaf's group bombed a ferry, killing 200. In March 2004, Muslim attackers killed 185 Iraqis in Baghdad and Karbala, Iraq, as they attended shrines. In the same month, Muslim bombs attacked a commuter train complex in Madrid, Spain, killing 191, wounding 1,800. It was the deadliest attack since Lockerbie bombing in 1988 in Europe. In the same month, nine from US were slain by Islamics via bomb explosion near Fallujah. In April 2004, five suicide bombs exploded near police headquarters and academy with 74 slain and l160 wounded. In the same month, Islamic killers via suicide car bomb slew 5 and wounded 150 in Riyadh. In the same month, 24 were slain via roadside bomb hitting bus in Baghdad, Iraq. In May 2004 in Saudi Arabia, Muslims slew six in attack on Western oil company offices in Red Sea city of Yanbu. The slain were then dragged through the streets. In the same month in Fallujah, Iraq, four were slain via grenade. Mobs dragged the corpses through the streets. In the same month, Islamics show video of beheading a man who was identified as Nick Berg from Philadelphia. In the same month, 11 Christians were burnt alive by Islamics in two churches in Nigeria. In the same month, President of Iraqi Governing Council Izzadine Saleem is slain by Islamic murderers. In the same month, two are slain by a bomb at a shrine. Fifty others were wounded. In the same month, in Ambon, Indonesia, bombs kill one and injure 13 in a Christian neighborhood. Another bomb goes off near a church. In the same month in Barentu Nrritrea, seven are slain and 80 wounded by bomb blast. In the same month in Pattani Thailand, Islamics kidnap Buddhist civilian, then behead him. In the same month in Turbat Pakistan, Islamics kill a 14-year-old boy and dozens are injured in a rocket attack against the Minister of Education. In June 2004, bombs explode close to US base in Beiji, slaying 11 and wounding 22. In the same month in Rihadh, Frank Gardner, BBC's security correspondent, was critically injured and his cameraman Simon Cumbers was slain. In the same month, car bombs exploded near American base in Taji, killing nine, wounding 30. In the same month, car bomb explodes, killing US solider and five Iraqis with 15 others wounded. In the same month, Muslims down Robert Jacob, American working for Vinnell Corp, Riyadh. In the same month, suicide car bomb kills 12 in Baghdad, Iraq. In the same month, car bombs explode in Baghdad, slaying 13. Crowd dances in the streets, showing "Down with the USA!" In the same month, artillery shells slay 35, wound 138 in Baghdad, Iraq. In the same month, US hostage Paul Marshal Johnson, American engineer for Lockheed Martin, is beheaded by Al-Qaeda. In the same month in Zainapora India, Lashkar-e-Toiba murders kidnap two, later slitting their throats. In July 2004 in Jakarta Indonesia, a priest was slain and four wounded when gunmen attacked their church. It was near the site where over 2000 Christians have been slain by Muslims.

A "conventional ICBM" would give additional tactical capability beyond that level, though. For example, you could drop one in any backyard on the planet within 15 minuntes of the decision being made, regardless of the position of your tactical forces at the moment. Carriers take days/weeks to reposition, and bombers take hours to reach an area. Offset against that might be such factors as readiness, accuracy and expense. They're one-shot deals, and as far as I know there are zero ICBMs in production. So you wouldn't want to use them for just any old response-to-terrorist-attack-on-an-embassy scenario.

IMO Bettina's post above represents more than sufficient justification for the position that she's posted. I also happen to disagree with her conclusions, and would respond on point by indicating similar flaws in other religions, and suggest that the production of terrorists has more to do with environmental and political issues than religious ones. Much of which she's agreed with in the past. And at the end we would agree to disagree and move on! That's because we respect one another's views, and place value in each other's opinions. Isn't that what this is all about? Where is the great harm in having that conversation? Who in their right mind would be so insulted by such a discussion that they would feel the need to get somebody banned or warned? Are people's views of the world so precarious that they cannot withstand a little introspective discourse? Egalitarian debate only works when people are WILLING TO LISTEN TO ONE ANOTHER.