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Pangloss

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  1. It's the first part of that sentence that I'm questioning. I'm not convinced that's the case. The second part of the sentence is something I have no problem with being flexible about. Here's an honest question for you (or anybody else): Do I have a right to know whether they are part of the former group, or the latter?
  2. Well first of all, you're more or less preaching to the choir here, so I don't know that I'm the best person to answer these questions. But this claim, as with your point about the atomic bombs in the other thread, is similarly refutable. My personal opinion is that the evidence of WMDs was marginal and circumstantial, and the administration, upon realizing that the terrorism/9-11 angle was going to be insufficient to bring the country to war, decided that WMDs constituted a more powerful motivator. That's deceptive, but it's not the same thing as a "lie". We were sold a bag of goods, Madison Avenue style, and we bought it, hook, line, but no sinker (not everyone was convinced, but not enough people disagreed to stop it). This is different from saying that we were LIED to. And frankly I think the problem here is that we as Americans are unwilling to own up to our own responsibility for this mess. It's too easy to dump it all in George Bush's lap. Who are the real fools here? At any rate, Anendberg Factcheck did a specific piece on this just yesterday which demonstrates why the "Bush lied" point is so fully refutable. http://www.factcheck.org/article358.html A couple of particularly relevent quotes from their piece: I highly recommend that all "Bush lied" proponents read that factcheck in detail. It forms a nice basis/beginning point for further debate, with extensive sources and much more specific points than what I quoted above.
  3. Well first of all, the US bombed a lot more than two Japanese cities, and did far more harm to the civilian population *before* the bombs were dropped. None of those bombings brought about the end of the war. The "evidence" that Japan was willing to surrender before the atomic bombs were dropped is scanty and circumstantial. The cases people make on that basis are always and often refuted and are simply not statable on a factual basis. Because historians disagree, you simply cannot make a statement like "Would it have been so bad to accept the surrender of Japan when the proposal was initially made?", as Cosine does above. It's just too refutable a point to accept the premise of that question without further debate. If you want to have a debate on the subject, please start a new thread for that. Otherwise you're going to have to agree to disagree in this thread, and move along. There is insufficient basis for more than a simple statement of opinion there.
  4. Why not simply look at the numbers of Katrina survivors who have already departed from federal disaster relief programs? Does it really matter *how* they managed to get back on their feet? The job is to get them back on their feet, not figure out how best to provide them aid in perpetuity.
  5. Let me back up a statement you erroneously denied in the above post, and a question that you asked me, IMM: 1) Has the spreading out of Katrina victims been reflected in the crime rates of post-Katrina New Orleans and in the cities that took in her refugees? IMM: "That isn't true." Pangloss: Yes it is. "Nature's Crime Fighter: Hurricane Katrina" (From the NEW YORK TIMES!) http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/10/news/crime.php (It's a reprint from a Times article, which is now on pay-only basis at the Times web site, which is why I linked it from there instead.) And here is an ABC News story about how crime has moved to other cities following the refugees from New Orleans: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1320056 That article explicitly reports the rise in crime in Houston and Atlanta in areas populated by Katrina victims. In contrast, the article that YOU linked actually talked about a completely different subject: Crime incidents that took place immediately following Katrina. I agree, those were ridiculously overblown. But that has nothing to do with the subject *I* was talking about, which was comparing the pre-Katrina New Orleans crime rate with the current crime rate and in the places where New Orleans refugees ended up. 2) Your question: "I'm interested to know where you got your information from that these people dont want to take jobs." There have been *numerous* stories on this issue over *months* now. The mayor of New Orleans raised eyebrows recently in talking about how his city was "overrun by Mexican workers". I guess he doesn't agree with you either about the housing situation, the types of jobs, or whether they're too good for that sort of work, huh? Anyway, here is your answer: "Illegal immigrants take many reconstruction jobs in New Orleans" http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-11-10-voa80.cfm Holy cow! But instead of saying "OH MY GOD HOW FAST CAN I POSSIBLY GET DOWN THERE?!?!?!?!!" instead they sit on their asses in Residence Inns in Atlanta in Houston. AND COMPLAIN THAT THEY'RE NOT GETTING ENOUGH HELP! Now I have backed up what I've said, and I have made my prima facie case. I think you owe me an apology for deliberately demonizing and mischaracterizing my words.
  6. Well fortunately I didn't say that. But I can tell you this: The reason I didn't say "she shouldn't be helped at all" has nothing to do with whether or not it's insensitive. The people who are going there to do the labor don't seem to be having any trouble finding places to stay. Um, hello, it's manual labor, not skilled work, being taken by people who just skipped in across the border from Mexico. What's wrong with that kind of work, IMM? Surely beggars can't be choosers. We're talking about people who lived off the public dole. Should they really be picky about what kind of work is available, when they're presently living off money taken from me by force? Prove it. Last time I checked we had virtually full employment in this country. Apparently a job is so "hard to find" in this country that the unemployment numbers have been dropping in spite of half a million jobs lost due to Katrina, and there are now more people working than is statistically possible after you account for maternity leaves, temporary unemployment (like people who got fired), etc. Nothing unusual about that -- statistics are only so accurate. It just means that we really don't *have* any unemployment in this country. This is one of the most ideological things I've ever seen you post. Because he's talking about the bright side of an otherwise horrible affair, you're accusing him of celebrating death and dislocation? Come on, get off the bandwagon and stop making ridiculous assumptions just because you don't like someone's political leanings. Has someone kidnapped your keyboard, IMM?!
  7. TE, what would you suggest the US have done following the bombing of Pearl Harbor in 1941?
  8. Right, but that was a month after they took office, and long before the non-cooperation rulings by the UN. At that time Iraq was not in compliance, but they had started cooperating again and the inspectors weren't finding anything. But after that they began failing to cooperate again, and the inspectors began to have second thoughts about what Iraq did or did not have. By 2003 the investigators could not certify Iraq free of WMDs, and Blix himself, even though he was opposed to the war, expressed concerns about what Iraq might have. More to the point, various intelligence services around the world were by 2002/3 reporting information that suggested that they had WMDs. So that's an interesting point, but it doesn't make anything like a reasonable case for "lies".
  9. (chuckle) You're incorrigible. Sorry, not getting the Fox reference....
  10. I swear if I hear one more story about a family being kicked out of their expensive hotel rooms or otherwise "re-victimized" I'm gonna barf up a lung. What have these people been DOING for the last few months, aside from sitting around waiting for handout after handout? One idiot on ABC News last night actually had the hutzpa to stand there in her Residence Inn suite (which I paid for) with her children eating dinner behind her (which I paid for), sporting a closet full of new clothing (which I paid for), and scream into the cameras, "They keep saying that we're going to get some help, but it NEVER COMES!" (sigh) That having been said, I know there are some folks down there who have been validly and understandably extra-harmed by various circumstances, including FEMA mistakes, price-gouging and insurance fraud, and I have no problem with those folks getting a little more time and assistance to get back on their feet. But there are two other aspects of this that really irk me, and suggest that some hard-love governance is in order: - New Orleans is BEGGING for labor. They cannot get enough of it. Illegal immigrants are shipping in by the truckload to take HIGH paying jobs that former residents REFUSE to move back for. (Easier to sit on your bum and beg for another free $2,000 debit card?) -In the areas (mainly Texas and Georgia) where large numbers of New Orleans poor were shipped after the hurricane, the crime rates have SKYROCKETED. What a nice way to repay your hosts! I know the latter is a bit of a straw man -- obviously not everyone there is a criminal, and a few bad apples are making the rest look bad. But you KNOW that's gonna have an impact. I have an uncle who lives in Louisiana who was saying that he felt it may be the best thing that ever happened to both the city and to those people, over the long haul. The horrendous crime rate of New Orleans has now been spread out, which means it can actually be dealt with more effectively now, by non-corrupt law enforcement units all over the country. And perhaps more to the point, many (if not all) of the communities these refugees (and let's face it, anybody still on the dole at this point IS a "refugee") were shipped to, unlike New Orleans and Louisiana, do NOT have large state welfare programs that you can get by on from generation to generation. They'll HAVE to go back to work. They just won't have any choice. (That's probably one of the reasons they're pestering the federal government so hard.) Thoughts?
  11. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/15/AR2005111501450_pf.html One of the things that I think is interesting about this is that the left is beside itself in being quick to point out that Hagel sits on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and therefore he is privy to intelligence information, and therefore his position on the Iraq War is extra valuable. And yet, they also seem adamant in telling us that Bush, and ONLY Bush, is responsible for the Iraq War. Apparently the people sitting on the ICs then, who saw the same intelligence and supported the war, that doesn't count! Oh no, it's all BUSH's fault! (chuckle) Gotta love hypocrisy. Anyway, that's more or less a side issue. The main point of interest here is that Bush's support continues to erode as Republicans ponder their slimming re-election chances in 2006.
  12. Pangloss

    Wikipedia

    Yeah I have a feeling the Semantic Web concept will finally tip in 2006. For what it's worth, I take exactly the opposite approach of my traditionalist college professors when I teach classes -- I tell my students all about the Wikipedia, what's good and bad about it, etc. Even if the class is about something that would benefit very little form the info, I usually at least mention it in passing. A fair amount already know about it, but a surprising number do not, even amongst my MCSE-track students. (I'm a part-time Microsoft trainer, finishing a master's in CS, shooting for PhD/professorship.)
  13. That would definitely be one of the great shining moments of the Shuttle program, and absolutely not something to be denigrated as a human endeavor. I for one have really enjoyed the images over the years, and the science has been unquestionably valuable. But at what cost? Remember, the whole point of the shuttle was cost efficiency. The Hubble is, therefore, a perfect example of how the shuttle program went awry. The telescope itself has eaten up $10-15 billion so far (depending on who you ask), not counting the $1 billion or more spent on the launch and two servicing missions. In contrast, the James Webb Space Telescope, which is far larger because it isn't limited to the size of the shuttle's payload bay, and far more capable scientifically than Hubble, will run a very realistic $3.5 billion, including launch. In a way you have to wonder why we thought that it would be less expensive to have humans do routine maintenance work in space. The infrastructure and mechanical effort required to loft a human being into orbit is vastly greater than it is with just machinery alone. Safely coordinating human beings travelling 17,500 mph, with hundreds of thousands of things that can go wrong, just to pop the hood and change the oil on a satellite, makes no sense at all, and probably never did. Sooner or later we'll figure out how to do all that efficiently. But my guess is it'll be private enterprise, with government support, that does the job. Not NASA.
  14. Pangloss

    Wikipedia

    I think Ophiolite and bascule have the most relevent points above, and the closest to my view on it. I actually see the Wikipedia as the next "killer app" of the Internet. It does something that the WWWeb was supposed to do but has never quite accomplished. It serves as a central point of focus for beginning an investigation or information gathering effort, it's a repository and communications tool with a common organizational theme and best practices, and it's more or less uncensored. Isn't that what the Web was supposed to be, but has never quite been? Broop broop!
  15. Exactly. Of course, it goes both ways. The far right would have you believe that the success of the "conservative movement" has been its outreach and awakening of the christian conservatives (who do seem to make up a far more important sector of the vote than the far left, I admit), but in fact it's really the big tent approach that has allied libertarians and conservative democrats and atheistic/gay/other conservatives with the emerging neo-cons that caused the tip. But that errant perception has caused the religious right to get all cocky now and start declaring How Things Will Be, leading to a departure of libertarians and others. If the Democrats ever get their act together and reject the Michael Moores and Al Frankens (and more importantly replace the money men like George Soros), then they'll win back the conservative Democrats as well, and can easily regain power, leaving the religious right pounding the table in frustration. That's the basic situation, at any rate. What actually ends up happening is anybody's guess at this point. Clearly Hillary is aware of all this and is trying to position herself in the center, but I think her biggest struggle will be within her own party. She's going to have a very hard time once Soros' minions start pointing their grubby little fingers at a Howard Dean or a Diane Feinstein. Of course, a lot will depend on how the mid-terms go.
  16. Perhaps Wal-Mart's communist suppliers ordered the changes. After all, christmas trees are green, but those "happy holidays" banners are a bright, Maoist RED! ;-)
  17. Hey bascule, here's a little counterpoint for you from Norman Podhoretz, one of the leaders of the neo-conservative movement. I don't happen to agree with him on a lot of things, but he makes a compelling argument on a number of points. http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007540 Who Is Lying About Iraq? A campaign of distortion aims to discredit the liberation. BY NORMAN PODHORETZ Monday, November 14, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST Among the many distortions, misrepresentations and outright falsifications that have emerged from the debate over Iraq, one in particular stands out above all others. This is the charge that George W. Bush misled us into an immoral or unnecessary war in Iraq by telling a series of lies that have now been definitively exposed. What makes this charge so special is the amazing success it has enjoyed in getting itself established as a self-evident truth even though it has been refuted and discredited over and over again by evidence and argument alike. In this it resembles nothing so much as those animated cartoon characters who, after being flattened, blown up or pushed over a cliff, always spring back to life with their bodies perfectly intact. Perhaps, like those cartoon characters, this allegation simply cannot be killed off, no matter what. Nevertheless, I want to take one more shot at exposing it for the lie that it itself really is. Although doing so will require going over ground that I and many others have covered before, I hope that revisiting this well-trodden terrain may also serve to refresh memories that have grown dim, to clarify thoughts that have grown confused, and to revive outrage that has grown commensurately dulled. The main "lie" that George W. Bush is accused of telling us is that Saddam Hussein possessed an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, or WMD as they have invariably come to be called. From this followed the subsidiary "lie" that Iraq under Saddam's regime posed a two-edged mortal threat. On the one hand, we were informed, there was a distinct (or even "imminent") possibility that Saddam himself would use these weapons against us or our allies; and on the other hand, there was the still more dangerous possibility that he would supply them to terrorists like those who had already attacked us on 9/11 and to whom he was linked. This entire scenario of purported deceit was given a new lease on life by the indictment in late October of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, then chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney. Mr. Libby stands accused of making false statements to the FBI and of committing perjury in testifying before a grand jury that had been convened to find out who in the Bush administration had "outed" Valerie Plame, a CIA agent married to the retired ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV. The supposed purpose of leaking this classified information to the press was to retaliate against Mr. Wilson for having "debunked" (in his words) "the lies that led to war." Now, as it happens, Mr. Libby was not charged with having outed Ms. Plame but only with having lied about when and from whom he first learned that she worked for the CIA. Moreover, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor who brought the indictment against him, made a point of emphasizing that "this indictment is not about the war": This indictment is not about the propriety of the war. And people who believe fervently in the war effort, people who oppose it, people who have mixed feelings about it should not look to this indictment for any resolution of how they feel or any vindication of how they feel. This is simply an indictment that says, in a national-security investigation about the compromise of a CIA officer's identity that may have taken place in the context of a very heated debate over the war, whether some person--a person, Mr. Libby--lied or not. No matter. Harry Reid, the Democratic leader in the Senate, spoke for a host of other opponents of the war in insisting: This case is bigger than the leak of classified information. It is about how the Bush White House manufactured and manipulated intelligence in order to bolster its case for the war in Iraq and to discredit anyone who dared to challenge the president. Yet even stipulating--which I do only for the sake of argument--that no weapons of mass destruction existed in Iraq in the period leading up to the invasion, it defies all reason to think that Mr. Bush was lying when he asserted that they did. To lie means to say something one knows to be false. But it is as close to certainty as we can get that Mr. Bush believed in the truth of what he was saying about WMD in Iraq. How indeed could it have been otherwise? George Tenet, his own CIA director, assured him that the case was "a slam dunk." This phrase would later become notorious, but in using it, Mr. Tenet had the backing of all 15 agencies involved in gathering intelligence for the United States. In the National Intelligence Estimate of 2002, where their collective views were summarized, one of the conclusions offered with "high confidence" was that "Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding its chemical, biological, nuclear, and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions." The intelligence agencies of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel and--yes--France all agreed with this judgment. And even Hans Blix--who headed the U.N. team of inspectors trying to determine whether Saddam had complied with the demands of the Security Council that he get rid of the weapons of mass destruction he was known to have had in the past--lent further credibility to the case in a report he issued only a few months before the invasion: The discovery of a number of 122-mm chemical rocket warheads in a bunker at a storage depot 170 km [105 miles] southwest of Baghdad was much publicized. This was a relatively new bunker, and therefore the rockets must have been moved there in the past few years, at a time when Iraq should not have had such munitions. . . . They could also be the tip of a submerged iceberg. The discovery of a few rockets does not resolve but rather points to the issue of several thousands of chemical rockets that are unaccounted for. Mr. Blix now claims that he was only being "cautious" here, but if, as he now also adds, the Bush administration "misled itself" in interpreting the evidence before it, he at the very least lent it a helping hand. So, once again, did the British, the French and the Germans, all of whom signed on in advance to Secretary of State Colin Powell's reading of the satellite photos he presented to the U.N. in the period leading up to the invasion. Mr. Powell himself and his chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, now feel that this speech was the low point of his tenure as secretary of state. But Mr. Wilkerson (in the process of a vicious attack on the president, the vice president, and the secretary of defense for getting us into Iraq) is forced to acknowledge that the Bush administration did not lack for company in interpreting the available evidence as it did: I can't tell you why the French, the Germans, the Brits and us thought that most of the material, if not all of it, that we presented at the U.N. on 5 February 2003 was the truth. I can't. I've wrestled with it. [but] when you see a satellite photograph of all the signs of the chemical-weapons ASP--Ammunition Supply Point--with chemical weapons, and you match all those signs with your matrix on what should show a chemical ASP, and they're there, you have to conclude that it's a chemical ASP, especially when you see the next satellite photograph which shows the UN inspectors wheeling in their white vehicles with black markings on them to that same ASP, and everything is changed, everything is clean. . . . But George [Tenet] was convinced, John McLaughlin [Tenet's deputy] was convinced, that what we were presented [for Powell's UN speech] was accurate. Going on to shoot down a widespread impression, Mr. Wilkerson informs us that even the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research, known as INR, was convinced: People say, well, INR dissented. That's a bunch of bull. INR dissented that the nuclear program was up and running. That's all INR dissented on. They were right there with the chems and the bios. In explaining its dissent on Iraq's nuclear program, the INR had, as stated in the NIE of 2002, expressed doubt about: Iraq's efforts to acquire aluminum tubes [which are] central to the argument that Baghdad is reconstituting its nuclear-weapons program. . . . INR is not persuaded that the tubes in question are intended for use as centrifuge rotors . . . in Iraq's nuclear-weapons program. But, according to Wilkerson: The French came in in the middle of my deliberations at the CIA and said, we have just spun aluminum tubes, and by God, we did it to this rpm, et cetera, et cetera, and it was all, you know, proof positive that the aluminum tubes were not for mortar casings or artillery casings, they were for centrifuges. Otherwise, why would you have such exquisite instruments? In short, and whether or not it included the secret heart of Hans Blix, "the consensus of the intelligence community," as Mr. Wilkerson puts it, "was overwhelming" in the period leading up to the invasion of Iraq that Saddam definitely had an arsenal of chemical and biological weapons, and that he was also in all probability well on the way to rebuilding the nuclear capability that the Israelis had damaged by bombing the Osirak reactor in 1981. Additional confirmation of this latter point comes from Kenneth Pollack, who served in the National Security Council under Clinton. "In the late spring of 2002," Pollack has written: I participated in a Washington meeting about Iraqi WMD. Those present included nearly twenty former inspectors from the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM), the force established in 1991 to oversee the elimination of WMD in Iraq. One of the senior people put a question to the group: did anyone in the room doubt that Iraq was currently operating a secret centrifuge plant? No one did. Three people added that they believed Iraq was also operating a secret calutron plant (a facility for separating uranium isotopes). No wonder, then, that another conclusion the NIE of 2002 reached with "high confidence" was that "Iraq could make a nuclear weapon in months to a year once it acquires sufficient weapons-grade fissile material." (Hard as it is to believe, let alone to reconcile with his general position, Joseph C. Wilson IV, in a speech he delivered three months after the invasion at the Education for Peace in Iraq Center, offhandedly made the following remark: "I remain of the view that we will find biological and chemical weapons and we may well find something that indicates that Saddam's regime maintained an interest in nuclear weapons.") But the consensus on which Mr. Bush relied was not born in his own administration. In fact, it was first fully formed in the Clinton administration. Here is Bill Clinton himself, speaking in 1998: If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons-of-mass-destruction program. Here is his Secretary of State Madeline Albright, also speaking in 1998: Iraq is a long way from [the USA], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face. Here is Sandy Berger, Clinton's National Security Adviser, who chimed in at the same time with this flat-out assertion about Saddam: He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983. Finally, Mr. Clinton's secretary of defense, William Cohen, was so sure Saddam had stockpiles of WMD that he remained "absolutely convinced" of it even after our failure to find them in the wake of the invasion in March 2003. Nor did leading Democrats in Congress entertain any doubts on this score. A few months after Mr. Clinton and his people made the statements I have just quoted, a group of Democratic senators, including such liberals as Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, and John Kerry, urged the President "to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons-of-mass-destruction programs." Nancy Pelosi, the future leader of the Democrats in the House, and then a member of the House Intelligence Committee, added her voice to the chorus: Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons-of-mass-destruction technology, which is a threat to countries in the region, and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process. This Democratic drumbeat continued and even intensified when Mr. Bush succeeded Mr. Clinton in 2001, and it featured many who would later pretend to have been deceived by the Bush White House. In a letter to the new president, a group of senators led by Bob Graham declared: There is no doubt that . . . Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical, and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf war status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies. Sen. Carl Levin also reaffirmed for Mr. Bush's benefit what he had told Mr. Clinton some years earlier: Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations, and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them. Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton agreed, speaking in October 2002: In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical- and biological-weapons stock, his missile-delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al-Qaeda members. Senator Jay Rockefeller, vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, agreed as well: There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. . . . We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction. Even more striking were the sentiments of Bush's opponents in his two campaigns for the presidency. Thus Al Gore in September 2002: We know that [saddam] has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country. And here is Mr. Gore again, in that same year: Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter, and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power. Now to John Kerry, also speaking in 2002: I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force--if necessary--to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security. Perhaps most startling of all, given the rhetoric that they would later employ against Mr. Bush after the invasion of Iraq, are statements made by Sens. Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd, also in 2002: Kennedy: "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." Byrd: "The last U.N. weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical- and biological-warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons." Liberal politicians like these were seconded by the mainstream media, in whose columns a very different tune would later be sung. For example, throughout the last two years of the Clinton administration, editorials in the New York Times repeatedly insisted that "without further outside intervention, Iraq should be able to rebuild weapons and missile plants within a year [and] future military attacks may be required to diminish the arsenal again." The Times was also skeptical of negotiations, pointing out that it was "hard to negotiate with a tyrant who has no intention of honoring his commitments and who sees nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons as his country's salvation." So, too, the Washington Post, which greeted the inauguration of George W. Bush in January 2001 with this admonition: Of all the booby traps left behind by the Clinton administration, none is more dangerous--or more urgent--than the situation in Iraq. Over the last year, Mr. Clinton and his team quietly avoided dealing with, or calling attention to, the almost complete unraveling of a decade's efforts to isolate the regime of Saddam Hussein and prevent it from rebuilding its weapons of mass destruction. That leaves President Bush to confront a dismaying panorama in the Persian Gulf [where] intelligence photos . . . show the reconstruction of factories long suspected of producing chemical and biological weapons. All this should surely suffice to prove far beyond any even unreasonable doubt that Mr. Bush was telling what he believed to be the truth about Saddam's stockpile of WMD. It also disposes of the fallback charge that Mr. Bush lied by exaggerating or hyping the intelligence presented to him. Why on earth would he have done so when the intelligence itself was so compelling that it convinced everyone who had direct access to it, and when hardly anyone in the world believed that Saddam had, as he claimed, complied with the 16 resolutions of the Security Council demanding that he get rid of his weapons of mass destruction? Another fallback charge is that Mr. Bush, operating mainly through Mr. Cheney, somehow forced the CIA into telling him what he wanted to hear. Yet in its report of 2004, the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee, while criticizing the CIA for relying on what in hindsight looked like weak or faulty intelligence, stated that it "did not find any evidence that administration officials attempted to coerce, influence, or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq's weapons-of-mass-destruction capabilities. The March 2005 report of the equally bipartisan Robb-Silberman commission, which investigated intelligence failures on Iraq, reached the same conclusion, finding "no evidence of political pressure to influence the intelligence community's pre-war assessments of Iraq's weapons programs. . . . Analysts universally asserted that in no instance did political pressure cause them to skew or alter any of their analytical judgments." Still, even many who believed that Saddam did possess WMD, and was ruthless enough to use them, accused Mr. Bush of telling a different sort of lie by characterizing the risk as "imminent." But this, too, is false: Mr. Bush consistently rejected imminence as a justification for war. Thus, in the State of the Union address he delivered only three months after 9/11, Mr. Bush declared that he would "not wait on events while dangers gather" and that he would "not stand by, as peril draws closer and closer." Then, in a speech at West Point six months later, he reiterated the same point: "If we wait for threats to materialize, we will have waited too long." And as if that were not clear enough, he went out of his way in his State of the Union address in 2003 (that is, three months before the invasion), to bring up the word "imminent" itself precisely in order to repudiate it: Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option. What of the related charge that it was still another "lie" to suggest, as Mr. Bush and his people did, that a connection could be traced between Saddam Hussein and the al Qaeda terrorists who had attacked us on 9/11? This charge was also rejected by the Senate Intelligence Committee. Contrary to how its findings were summarized in the mainstream media, the committee's report explicitly concluded that al Qaeda did in fact have a cooperative, if informal, relationship with Iraqi agents working under Saddam. The report of the bipartisan 9/11 commission came to the same conclusion, as did a comparably independent British investigation conducted by Lord Butler, which pointed to "meetings . . . between senior Iraqi representatives and senior al-Qaeda operatives." Which brings us to Joseph C. Wilson, IV and what to my mind wins the palm for the most disgraceful instance of all. The story begins with the notorious 16 words inserted--after, be it noted, much vetting by the CIA and the State Department--into Bush's 2003 State of the Union address: The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. This is the "lie" Mr. Wilson bragged of having "debunked" after being sent by the CIA to Niger in 2002 to check out the intelligence it had received to that effect. Mr. Wilson would later angrily deny that his wife had recommended him for this mission, and would do his best to spread the impression that choosing him had been the vice president's idea. But Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times, through whom Mr. Wilson first planted this impression, was eventually forced to admit that "Cheney apparently didn't know that Wilson had been dispatched." (By the time Mr. Kristof grudgingly issued this retraction, Mr. Wilson himself, in characteristically shameless fashion, was denying that he had ever "said the vice president sent me or ordered me sent.") And as for his wife's supposed nonrole in his mission, here is what Valerie Plame Wilson wrote in a memo to her boss at the CIA: My husband has good relations with the PM [the prime minister of Niger] and the former minister of mines . . ., both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity. More than a year after his return, with the help of Mr. Kristof, and also Walter Pincus of the Washington Post, and then through an op-ed piece in the Times under his own name, Mr. Wilson succeeded, probably beyond his wildest dreams, in setting off a political firestorm. In response, the White House, no doubt hoping to prevent his allegation about the 16 words from becoming a proxy for the charge that (in Mr. Wilson's latest iteration of it) "lies and disinformation [were] used to justify the invasion of Iraq," eventually acknowledged that the president's statement "did not rise to the level of inclusion in the State of the Union address." As might have been expected, however, this panicky response served to make things worse rather than better. And yet it was totally unnecessary--for the maddeningly simple reason that every single one of the 16 words at issue was true. That is, British intelligence had assured the CIA that Saddam Hussein had tried to buy enriched uranium from the African country of Niger. Furthermore--and notwithstanding the endlessly repeated assertion that this assurance has now been discredited--Britain's independent Butler commission concluded that it was "well-founded." The relevant passage is worth quoting at length: a. It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999. b. The British government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger's exports, the intelligence was credible. c. The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq actually purchased, as opposed to having sought, uranium, and the British government did not claim this. As if that were not enough to settle the matter, Mr. Wilson himself, far from challenging the British report when he was "debriefed" on his return from Niger (although challenging it is what he now never stops doing), actually strengthened the CIA's belief in its accuracy. From the Senate Intelligence Committee report: He [the CIA reports officer] said he judged that the most important fact in the report [by Mr. Wilson] was that Niger officials admitted that the Iraqi delegation had traveled there in 1999, and that the Niger prime minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium. And again: The report on [Mr. Wilson's] trip to Niger . . . did not change any analysts' assessments of the Iraq-Niger uranium deal. For most analysts, the information in the report lent more credibility to the original CIA reports on the uranium deal. This passage goes on to note that the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research--which (as we have already seen) did not believe that Saddam Hussein was trying to develop nuclear weapons--found support in Mr. Wilson's report for its "assessment that Niger was unlikely to be willing or able to sell uranium to Iraq." But if so, this, as the Butler report quoted above points out, would not mean that Iraq had not tried to buy it--which was the only claim made by British intelligence and then by Mr. Bush in the famous 16 words. The liar here, then, was not Mr. Bush but Mr. Wilson. And Mr. Wilson also lied when he told the Washington Post that he had unmasked as forgeries certain documents given to American intelligence (by whom it is not yet clear) that supposedly contained additional evidence of Saddam's efforts to buy uranium from Niger. The documents did indeed turn out to be forgeries; but, according to the Butler report: The forged documents were not available to the British government at the time its assessment was made, and so the fact of the forgery does not undermine [that assessment]. More damning yet to Mr. Wilson, the Senate Intelligence Committee discovered that he had never laid eyes on the documents in question: [Mr. Wilson] also told committee staff that he was the source of a Washington Post article . . . which said, "among the envoy's conclusions was that the documents may have been forged because 'the dates were wrong and the names were wrong.' " Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have come to the conclusion that the "dates were wrong and the names were wrong" when he had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names and dates were in the reports. To top all this off, just as Mr. Cheney had nothing to do with the choice of Mr. Wilson for the mission to Niger, neither was it true that, as Mr. Wilson "confirmed" for a credulous New Republic reporter, "the CIA circulated [his] report to the Vice President's office," thereby supposedly proving that Cheney and his staff "knew the Niger story was a flat-out lie." Yet--the mind reels--if Mr. Cheney had actually been briefed on Mr. Wilson's oral report to the CIA (which he was not), he would, like the CIA itself, have been more inclined to believe that Saddam had tried to buy yellowcake uranium from Niger. So much for the author of the best-selling and much-acclaimed book whose title alone--"The Politics of Truth: Inside the Lies that Led to War and Betrayed My Wife's CIA Identity"--has set a new record for chutzpah. But there is worse. In his press conference on the indictment against Mr. Libby, Patrick Fitzgerald insisted that lying to federal investigators is a serious crime both because it is itself against the law and because, by sending them on endless wild-goose chases, it constitutes the even more serious crime of obstruction of justice. By those standards, Mr. Wilson--who has repeatedly made false statements about every aspect of his mission to Niger, including whose idea it was to send him and what he told the CIA upon his return; who was then shown up by the Senate Intelligence Committee as having lied about the forged documents; and whose mendacity has sent the whole country into a wild-goose chase after allegations that, the more they are refuted, the more they keep being repeated--is himself an excellent candidate for criminal prosecution. And so long as we are hunting for liars in this area, let me suggest that we begin with the Democrats now proclaiming that they were duped, and that we then broaden out to all those who in their desperation to delegitimize the larger policy being tested in Iraq--the policy of making the Middle East safe for America by making it safe for democracy--have consistently used distortion, misrepresentation and selective perception to vilify as immoral a bold and noble enterprise and to brand as an ignominious defeat what is proving itself more and more every day to be a victory of American arms and a vindication of American ideals.
  18. Ok, you people are seriously strange. (grin) - 3 business cards for various tree-cutting services (I do it myself; no idea why these are here) - 2 take-out menus (pizza and chinese) - Matt Bishop's "Computer Security: Art & Science" - Peter Norvig's "Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach" - A 10gb hard drive that I have no idea what to do with - A copy of Windows XP 64-bit edition that Microsoft sent me to eval when hell freezes over - 1 packet of silica gell (marked "Do not eat!") (hehe) - 4 AA batteries (don't ask) - A very tall plastic bottle of Bayer aspirin - 1 partridge in pear tree
  19. LOL! Nice one, PY. It's a valid question, but nobody's saying they're going to stay forever. The problem is that the moment you set a timeline we lose. It's guaranteed. If we don't set a timeline, we have a chance. If we set a timeline, we might as well go home now. It's that simple. So why not call a spade a spade, and just say "bring the boys home" if that's what you want, and forget all this hypocritical timeline nonsense?
  20. It's been nice knowing you, Swansont!
  21. I'm afraid I don't understand this whole "timelines" argument. Do you think the terrorists will respect our timelines? How can you schedule something that is inherently unpredictable? Isn't that an impossible requirement? (Or is that the whole point -- making the requirements impossible to meet so you can call it a failure no matter what?) What's wrong with the currenct objectives, specifically? You say they're unknown, but I (no fan of the Iraq war) seem to be pretty familiar with them right off the top of my head: - Train the Iraqi army and police forces to the point of being self-sufficient - Continue working on the infrastructure - Re-establish oil production (done) - Re-establish the power grid (vastly improved already) - Improve other services (water/sanitation) - Once these goals are met, begin pulling out our troops What's so confusing or uncertain about that?
  22. I wonder. I'd love to see that swing, but I'm afraid the pendulum may bypass the center this time around and go straight to the opposite extreme. The Democratic party is every bit as controlled by special interests and extremists as the Republican party right now. As Zell Miller points out, they're just not the "big tent" they used to be. They don't *have* a center position for people to vote for.
  23. Interesting post, ecoli. According to Bernard Goldberg (who does have an axe to grind), news reporters are required to find minorities for quotes whenever they can. So, for example, you can't have a white man give a new statistic on the air if there is, for example, a black woman available to give it. It's bad enough these people straw man us to death, not to mention passing along "studies" from special interest groups as if they're news, but they also have to be politically correct in doing so!
  24. Someone on one of the weekend political shows -- I think it was George Will on This Week -- said that the Pennsylvania school board election was the most significant vote that took place last week. I think he's right, and I think it shows that the right wing of American politics has gone too far. They believe that statistics like "86% of all Americans are Christians" gives them a mandate for far-right, ideological demogoguery. But they're wrong, and if they keep pushing America is going to explain it to them. The far right ideologues who were opposed to the Miers nomination were making the same mistake. Rush Limbaugh and others WANTED a fight over the next justice. They want their "culture war", and they want it right now. They should be more careful what they wish for. This over-reaching by the "conservative movement" is one of the most blatant acts of hubris that I've seen in the 20 years that I've been following American politics.
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