beecee

I once saw a UFO about 30 years ago. It was a bright blue disk, about the same apparent size of the full Moon overhead, and was traveeling along the horizon. It was around 2200hrs and had me really excited, ( as opposed to feeling spooky) and I couldn't sleep that night. I awoke next morning, put on the telly for the news, went an bought the morning paper, specifically to see if there were any reports about this mysterious object I saw. I shrugged my shoulders and put it down to probably some sort of atmospheric anomaly, and accepted without too much more concern, that no, we weren't being invaded. 😜 There were times when I was about 8 years old, and had just seen the movie, The Thing: from another world, which did have me having nightmares for months afterwards and literally scared the living daylights out of me. No other moments that I recall where I have experienced anything too unworldly, other then a strange dream one night about being chased by a hippo across the Sydney harbor bridge! 😅 While my understanding of neurology is zilch, I simply believe that sometimes the brain plays tricks on you, and certainly as I have mentioned in one or two other threads, am of the opinion, that many people desire and work towards that warm comfy inner glow...particularly in avoiding the finality of death.

🤣 I'm mortified! Not actually interested in any medals either, but potentially saving the lives of innocents, by making the morally correct choice is comforting enough. Is he commenting on everything? I don't think so. See it as anyway you like, in your vane efforts to influence, mine and others morally correct views, they of course remains as is.

Some rather confusing claims to that post. Are you equating zero to the "nothing" that the BB arose from? This nothing really needs to be redefined. The space between planets, stars, galaxies etc, that was at one time defined as nothing, we now know is really not nothing. Virtual particles are popping in and out of existence all the time. The BB itself was simply an evolution/expansion of this space, in conjunction with time, from t+ 10-45 seconds or thereabouts. Around that era, the consensus is that the four known forces were all combined into one that is known as the "Superforce". As the universe/space/time expanded temperatures and pressures started to drop, and this superforce started to decouple into the four known forces, gravity being first. During this decoupling, phase transitions and false vacuums lead to excesses of energy, which went into creating our very first fundamental particles like quarks. At 3 minutes post BB, our first atomic nuclei were created as temperatures and pressures dropped and allowed for proton and neutron formations. Temperatures and Pressures continued to drop for another 380,000 years until electrons were able to couple with the atomic nuclei and our first element Hydrogen was formed. From that point it was plain sailing to the formation of the stars and planets we see today via gravitational collapse. That I believe is the generally accepted picture of how the universe we see today evolved, adding the proviso, that the closer in times we get to the BB, the less we are certain of the exact process. If we decide to ask where the BB came from, we can only really speculate, but based on current knowledge, the best scientific speculation tells us that the BB was a fluctuation in the quantum foam, and that this quantum foam can be more properly be defined as the real nothing, that was and is simply there. Far far closer to what we probably conventially and historically see as nothing, being zilch, nada. No big shrinks needed, no point A's or B's needed, no magic deities needed, a reasonable logical, if partly speculative scenario, that certainly makes sense to me.

Not at all. There are plenty of scenarios where 100% certainty of guilt is the only logical conclusion. Stop making excuses for pedaphiles and terrorists. As long as you do your best to achieve a morally correct outcome, I am not really concerned about how wrong it is. If you stopped trying to justify and philosophise, you would see that. And you would get a medal and have the support of your fellow human beings. You need to keep up. I have never said that philosophy never works. Did he? After doing some research on him, he appears to have had many a good/admirable thought and some not so admirable, just like you and me. And certainly no harsher view then even contemplating not undertaking all means possible to save the lives of thousands of innocent people. Either way he has as much right to comment on philosophy as you do. I'm often staggered in how personal philosophers take criticism of philosophy, as per the uproar over Lawrence Krauss'remarks, and the so called limits of science. Leonard Susskind who is another that has had to cop the wrath of philosophers. My own for what its worth, similar to Krauss and the fact that Philosophy deals with general foundational questions. Those are well established as Krauss was actually saying. Anyway here's some more you may like. "Metaphysics is a dark ocean without shores or lighthouse, strewn with many a philosophic wreck". Immanuel Kant (1724-1804) German Philosopher "Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds". Attributed to Richard Feynman (1918-88) U.S. Physicist. Nobel Prize 1965. "Philosophy is to science as pornography is to sex: it is cheaper, easier and some people prefer it". Steve Jones (biologist) Nothing really to forgive, if one is at least trying to achieve the best morally correct outcome.

Are you with it? 🙄 You know, in relation to the current situations, the where abouts of the child, and in the case of the terrorist, the whereabouts of the bomb device. Oh, I have nothing against philosophy as I have said many times, except when it is taken to irrelevant lengths as has happened here with one or two.... "Philosophy consists very largely of one philosopher arguing that all others are jackasses. He usually proves it, and I should add that he also usually proves that he is one himself". Henry Louis Mencken. (1880-1956). Minority Report, H. L. Mencken's Notebooks. Knopf, 1956. And no that wasn't the link, my mistake, but I certainly agree with the mandate by the united nations. The link I was referring to was....... https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/torture/ 3. The Moral Justification for One-off Acts of Torture in Emergencies Before turning in detail to the arguments on this issue, let us consider some putative examples of the justified use of torture. The first is a policing example, the second a terrorist example. Arguably, both examples are realistic, albeit the terrorist ticking bomb scenario is often claimed by moral absolutists to be utterly fanciful. Certainly, the policing example is realistic; indeed, it was provided by a former police officer from his own experience. Moreover, it is widely reported in the media that Al Qaeda, for example, has in the past sought to acquire a nuclear device to detonate in a western city and the 9/11 attacks and bombings in Bali, London, Madrid and Mumbai should leave no doubt whatsoever that Al Qaeda would use such a device if they could get their hands on one. So is it entirely fanciful that there could be such an attack and that an Al Qaeda operative known (on the basis of intercepted communications) to be a member of the cell involved in the planned attack might not be arrested, interrogated and tortured(?) prior to the detonation? At any rate, these are the two most popular kinds of example discussed in the literature. These cases include the real-life Daschner case involving the threat to torture a kidnapper by German police in 2002 which resulted in the kidnapper disclosing the location of a kidnapped child (Miller 2005). ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: and much more as I previously noted but obviously you failed to read. Examples of two scenarios have been gone into fairly thoroughly, both similar to what we are discussing, and which you have agreed you would probably also do wrong to achieve a morally correct outcome.

Certainly more right then simply philosophical utterings. Read the last Brittanica link I gave.

And also, not actually interested in correct and interesting answers. While that is certainly true, past Labor governments, have and are making efforts to right the continuing wrongs, and of course ex PM, Kevin Rudd, did apologise officially in parliment for the stolen generation. We can and will do better, perhaps after the next elections, where I hope the current ScoMo and company are thrown out on their ear and a sympathetic Labor government installed.

Congratulations! It's a bouncing baby asteroid! Wait... wait... it's twins! Well, kinda. The orbit of the asteroid 2019 QR6 (white ellipse) and its location in February 2022. The orbit and position of another asteroid, 2019 PR2, are nearly identical and would overlap perfectly on this scale. Photo: NASA/JPL-Caltech https://www.syfy.com/syfy-wire/bad-astronomy-asteroids-2019-pr2-qr6-single-rock-splitting

There certainly is a we, despite your philosophical procrastinations. Like I said, in those extreme rare situations, the law enforcements, and society would be certainly supportive, rather then risking the death of a child or thousands of innocents, just simply to maintain some seemingly faked moral high ground. I prefer reality over philosophical possibilities, and am pretty sure the vast majority of society would support such actions, be they wrong or right, (as defined by you) The lives of the many, ( the innocents) or the child, outweigh, any so called moral consideration for pedaphiles, terrorists, criminals etc. That's what a normal westernised society would support, and more importantly, that's what a normal westernised society would expect. Stop being so damn obtuse. They/it relates to a situation where 100% certainty of the guilt of a person is determined, and the relevant point I was making.

https://www.sciencealert.com/we-ve-just-found-a-pair-of-asteroids-that-only-formed-300-years-ago Astronomers Spot The Youngest Pair of Asteroids Ever Discovered in The Solar System: MICHELLE STARR : 7 FEBRUARY 2022 A pair of asteroids orbiting the Sun formed less than 300 years ago, a new study has revealed. This makes them the youngest pair of asteroids ever discovered in the Solar System, by a factor of 10. The discovery could tell us more about how asteroids crumble, while raising some intriguing new questions. "It's very exciting to find such a young asteroid pair that was formed only about 300 years ago, which was like this morning – not even yesterday – in astronomical timescales," says astronomer Petr Fatka of the Astronomical Institute of the Czech Academy of Sciences in Czechia. When the Solar System formed out of a dense clump in a giant cloud of gas and dust, whatever didn't get incorporated into planets or the Sun ended up simply floating around as debris: comets, asteroids, all that crunchy stuff. more at link................ the paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2112.01681.pdf Recent formation and likely cometary activity of near-Earth asteroid pair 2019 PR2 – 2019 QR6:

I'm simply of the opinion, that every means possible, should be tried within the framework of the two situations being discussed. The above would be part and parcel of that, yes. Yep, we all agree with that. As most laws in democratic westernised societies abide with. But we all would in rare circumsatnces see a need to step outside. Yes there is. Society would be the judge of the moral right of doing a wrong to save the life of a child or thousands of innocent people. You would probably be given a medal. I'm not that interested in your philoosphical rundown on the situation. To me its simply a matter of the moral right of doing a designated wrong, for the good of the majority. Ask Mr Spock. And I believe we all would make that morally right decision, to do wrong, and in any westernised democratic society, that would be applauded. I don't accept that we can never know with 100% certainty, the guilt of a person. I gave examples of that in the justice/punishment thread. When thousands of innocent lives are at stake, every possible means need be implemented to at least attempt to save them.

Another of course was by a great American artist, and political activist, who was the first person to sing at the Sydney Opera House in the early seventies. Only the foundations were laid, but he did this for the workers on site during their lunch break.... Paul Robeson.....

Not half bad! Every man and his dog was humming/singing that song when Ernie Ford first released it. Here's another interesting version, by the new Platters....

Perhaps if you weren't so fanatically obsessed in supporting your conspiracy nonsense you would have seen...... also I failed to compare the following from an earlier link.................................. https://www.ncirs.org.au/phases-clinical-trials and...................

You havn't got a case. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-vaccine-monitoring-idUSKBN2AC2G3 Fact check: It is standard practice for vaccine safety monitoring to continue after approval Social media users have asked why clinical trials for COVID-19 vaccines are set to continue for several years if the jab is safe. “COVID-19 vaccine trials are ongoing. What does that mean for those taking the vaccine?”, one post shared on Facebook asks. The post correctly notes that the Pfizer-BioNTech coronavirus vaccine has been given an “estimated study completion date” of Jan. 31, 2023 (here). For the COVID-19 vaccine created by Moderna, studies are expected to end on Oct. 27, 2022 (here). However, it is standard practice for safety monitoring to continue after a vaccine has been approved for use. After clearing final Phase III clinical trials, the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was granted approval for emergency use by U.S. regulators in December 2020 (here). Pfizer reported that it would continue safety monitoring of participants in its Phase III trial. (here). This means that “all trial participants will continue to be monitored to assess long-term protection and safety for an additional two years after their second dose” (here). Similarly, Moderna said that it would continue to follow participants from its Phase III trial for the next two years (here). Additional data collected will include “longer term safety follow-up, duration of protection against COVID-19, and efficacy against asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection”. How vaccinates are tested, licensed and monitored for safety is explained by Oxford University’s Vaccine Knowledge Project (here). Vaccines are also monitored by government bodies as they are rolled out, with the UK using the Yellow Card scheme (here) and the U.S. government operating VAERS (vaers.hhs.gov/reportevent.html). Although the vaccines have completed the necessary steps of each trial, the health and economic impact of COVID-19 has meant the process has been sped up. There has been a global effort to pool resources in order to accelerate the development and production of vaccines (here). On top of this, unprecedented financial investments and scientific collaborations have made it possible for some steps in research and development to happen “in parallel” (here). For example, some clinical trials are evaluating multiple vaccines at the same time, though clinical and safety standards are maintained despite the acceleration. VERDICT Missing context. It is standard procedure for safety monitoring to continue after vaccines have been approved for use. This article was produced by the Reuters Fact Check team. Read more about our work to fact-check social media posts here . You havn't got a case. https://www.pfizer.com/science/coronavirus/vaccine/about-our-landmark-trial The Phase 3 clinical trial was designed to determine if the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine is safe and effective in preventing COVID-19 disease. This trial began July 27, 2020, and completed enrollment of 46,331 participants in January 2021. On November 18, Pfizer and BioNTech announced that, after conducting the primary efficacy analysis, their mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccine met all of the study’s primary efficacy endpoints. On December 2, 2020, the Medicines & Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) in the U.K. authorized the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine for emergency use, marking the first Emergency Use Authorization following a worldwide Phase 3 trial of a vaccine to help fight the pandemic. Shortly after on December 11, 2020, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) authorized the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine for emergency use. For more information on the landmark study, please see the clinical trial protocol. How were you able to move with speed in the landmark Phase 3 trial? Even though we moved with extraordinary speed, preservation of high quality and safety standards was critically important throughout development. We took all of the regulatory and operational steps that we would normally take for all of our vaccine trials, maintaining the highest standards in our development process. This required enormous mobilization of Pfizer and BioNTech resources upfront at a scale never seen before. We also worked closely with regulatory agencies, providing near real-time data and receiving review and advice more quickly than ever before, to support the development of this potential vaccine as quickly as possible.

https://www.tga.gov.au/covid-19-vaccines-undergoing-evaluation All COVID-19 vaccine applications are being treated with the greatest priority as part of the Department of Health's response to the pandemic. Under normal circumstances, TGA's assessment (for both provisional and general registration) begins once all information to support registration is available. For COVID-19 vaccines, the TGA has agreed to accept rolling data to enable early evaluation of data as it comes to hand. Many of the large-scale clinical trials that will provide evidence of safety and effectiveness are still progressing and these results will be provided to the TGA as they become available. The TGA will also evaluate quality data (such as how the vaccines are manufactured). The TGA will only be in a position to make a provisional registration decision for a vaccine once all required data relating to safety, quality and efficacy has been provided and assessed. With rolling submissions, collaboration with international regulators, and proactively working with sponsors, it is expected the evaluation of COVID-19 vaccines will be significantly expedited without compromising on our strict standards of safety, quality and efficacy. However, the timeframe for the evaluation of each vaccine will ultimately depend on when the complete data package is provided by sponsors. We have not yet received a full data package from any company. Further information on the TGA's evaluation process for vaccines is available at: COVID-19 vaccine approval process.

https://www.ncirs.org.au/phases-clinical-trials In the COVID-19 pandemic, the vaccine development pathway was accelerated. First, as SARS-CoV-2 is a coronavirus, it shares similarities with SARS-CoV-1 (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome, SARS) and MERS-CoV (Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, MERS). Prior work on SARS and MERS vaccines reduced time spent on pre-clinical assessment of COVID-19, and the target antigen was identified quickly. Two months after the SARS-CoV-2 genome was sequenced and shared, the first phase I clinical trials began in March 2020. Phase II clinical trials began before phase I clinical trials ended. For many COVID-19 vaccine clinical trials, phase I and phase II clinical trials were combined to help speed up the progress. However, scientific design was not compromised as the dosage, safety and immunogenicity measures were evaluated. Phase III clinical trials also began before phase II clinical trials were complete. There were a few trials where phase II and phase III were combined. Overlapping and combined phases of clinical trials, the urgency of a need for a safe and effective vaccine, international collaborative efforts, funding and pre-planning in manufacturing have allowed vaccine development time-frame to be compressed to about 10 months. COVID-19 vaccines are being rolled out for emergency use authorisation in several countries. However, as there are limited safety data, full registration of the vaccine will only be given after extended safety monitoring, which will take several years (refer to Figure 2). Figure 2: COVID-19 vaccine development at pandemic speed :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Stop being so obtuse. We are talking about someone whose guilt is certain....you know, like the example in the justice thread, of a real live case of an arsehole caught raping a little girl, then stabbing one of her rescuers. In "when the chips are down" type of situations, when guilt is positive, and when other innocent lives are at stake, then without a trial is good enough. So, you are putting it in the impossible category? Quite conveneint for you and your life philosophy. Of course nonsense aside, we all know it could happen, but let's all hope though none of us are ever put in a position where we may need to put up or shut up. Because as I suggested dimreeper, even you would proceed with the so called wrong solution. You see I believe at heart you are a decent bloke, rather then a pure philosophical heartless being. Who said I know better then you? I'm expressing my opinion, an opinion I believe is right, and an opinion I believe would be supported by the vast majority of citizens in any western society...an opinion that focuses on victims first an foremost, rather then pedaphiles, terrorists, criminals and others that have no moral code with regards to wrong and right... And of course I do read your posts, and also answer questions asked of me. You should try that instead of pretending the questions don't exist, or that you have answered them previously, when you havn't. The protocol is already developed and I agree totally with it....torture should be banned and is criminalised in Australian law. I stand by that, but I also recognise that small probability where even the law and lawmakers, may see some exceptions to that, as per the situations described. Yes, certainly....the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one....to quote Mr Spock. I'm pretty sure you and all the others, would act with the care and sympathy, and concern focused on the thousands of potential victims and the little child. Of course you would! In any westernised democratic society, you would act to save the little child to the best of your ability as would the authorities...you would act in whatever method was available and exhaust all those methods to try and achieve success in saving thousands of people. I don't accept, nor do I believe your rhetoric to the contrary. Even with the possibility of you (or the relevant authority) being charged and held responsible. In the event of success, the courts would recognise your (or the relevant authorty) acting under unusual and rare circumstances that involved saving the life of a little child or that of thousands of people. In fact you would probably get a medal. That's called reality.

As is the covid19 vaccines, despite your fears to the contrary. And there are many other childhood vaccinations for the likes of measles, mumps, Diptheria, Polio etc. I see most of your other unsupported claims have been answered.

Can't argue with that. The possible seeding of other planets will be done according to accepted protocol of course. Your "from a human perspective" remark is valid, but the same applies to any other evolutionary advanced life forms that may exist elsewhere. My own perspective is simply life, the epitome of the evolutionary process, arising from abiogenesis.

The unvaccinated have not nor ever were demonised. That is their choice. Certain industries require full vaccination, that is their right. If you don't comply with that, then you need to rethink your employment. Proof of full vaccinations is required for border re-entry...that is what is stipulated by federal and state governments. If you fail to comply, you don't get in, simple as that. If you chose to drive, you where a seat belt. If you don't like seat belts, don't drive. "For me" that is for you, being the operative word. I prefer to take the advice of the WHO and local medical experts, that have shown to be correct, rather then the "Trump" like pseudoscience that poured out of that fool's mouth. We all must everyday of our lives, abide by rules and regulations in any democratic society, rather then the uncouth, criminal and desecrative behaviour of a bunch of conspiracy nuts, as per this photo at the Melbourne War Memorial. Anti-vaxxers living in one Australian state will face a four-day lockdown from today after a surge in Covid infections. Those living in the Northern Territory who have not had two coronavirus vaccine doses will only be able to leave their homes under strict conditions. These include for essential shopping, for medical treatment, including vaccination, or to provide care. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: While there maybe a "surge in numbers" Like WA, the numbers period are still relatively low. We also have a mandate in NSW, that parents that don't have their toddlers fully vaccinated against known childhood diseases like whooping cough, are not allowed to have their kids attend kindergarten. The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few...or the one.

Ummm, no they are not getting worse, and there is no ramping up of restrictions. Borders are now open except for WA, International restrictions are being lifted, hospital cases are falling including ICU patients. Masks are still mandatory, although lifting of that also is on the cards. We have, and are doing better then most other parts of the world. https://www.health.gov.au/health-alerts/covid-19/government-response https://www.health.gov.au/health-alerts/covid-19/case-numbers-and-statistics Case numbers did spike with the omicron variant, but they are also now dropping.

Thankfully, that is probably correct. And I'm pretty sure, if any of the unlikley situations did arise as detailed in this thread, that most all would take, or be satisified with all courses of actions being taken...in fact I will say all that have participated in this thread, despite their philosophical and moral takes on the matter. Yep, these are other methods that could be employed. My thoughts primarly were in relation to the jihadist types that believe the next life will be spent with 46 virgins and such. Doing whatever is necessary to have him believe he is being deprived of that, or even entering paradise in the next life. Wasn't something like that used with the killing of Bin-Laden? 😊 That's a good point and I'm glad you didn't dwell on it. While I understand the incredible basics of goodness, logic and sensibilities, laid down by the great philoosphers of the past, and the fact that the foundations/supports of science is built on philosophy, I also am of the opinion that sometimes it can be taken to the nth degree and adds more confusion then anything else, particularly when taken too far. I probably align with the thoughts and opinions of Krauss and DeGrasse-Tyson. I do try and base my beliefs and thinking on worthwhile principles. ps; Overall, a nice post. Already discussed and reasonable outcome achieved imo. I raised it to illustrate your general unworkable philsophy of life, that's all. Quite relevant imo at least. No one's talking about "jedwood justice" except you and your usual refusal to answer anything directly, instead making obnoxious and silly analogies. Your conclusion is also unscientific. Think "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" It is not only right with what we know now, it is the most logical and desirable outcome, as long a the conditions given were there. In fact as I mentioned to joigus, I am sure all that have participated in this thread, would in those situations, "when the chips are down" be OK with doing whatever was necessary, including yourself dimreeper, despite your moral high ground bluff and bluster to the contrary. Is that why you refused to answer the questions that would reveal that? I'm sure it is.

No, what's been driving policy is the proven advice and evidenceof the success of lockdowns, masks, social distancing, vaccine mandates etc. That's why the situation in Australia and New Zealand has always been far better then in most other places in the world. Myself and the Mrs are both in our 70's and both have tested positive, and have had only mild symptons. We both also have had two astra-zenaca shots and a Moderna booster. Sorry, I reject your conspiracy nonsense, and histrionics.

“Indeed, an astoundingly small proportion of arguments ‘for free speech’ and ‘against censorship’ or ‘banning’ are, in fact, about free speech, censorship or banning. It is depressing to have to point out, yet again, that there is a distinction between having the legal right to say something & having the moral right not to be held accountable for what you say. Being asked to apologise for saying something unconscionable is not the same as being stripped of the legal right to say it. It’s really not very f-cking complicated. Cry “free speech” in such contexts, you are demanding the right to speak any bilge you wish without apology or fear of comeback. You are demanding not legal rights but an end to debate about and criticism of what you say. When did bigotry get so needy? This assertive & idiotic failure to understand that juridical permissibility backed up by the state is not the horizon of politics or morality is absurdly resilient.” ― China Miéville