beecee

Some decent guitar work here....

I stand corrected. 🙄 All you have done is propose a new social, economic and administrative reforms. best of luck with that!

Why don't you sum it up for me. I'm probably wrong anyway, but one can only go on what has been said previously.

But it's not my definition of punishment. It's a definition of appropriate punsishment, in line with a reasonable westernised justice system and society. It's a philosophical stance by a justice system in any reasonable society, when anyone in that society crosses the line to indulge in violent, cruel inhuman behaviour, and that they deserve punishment befitting the crime, that they need to be separated from that society, for the protection of that society, and that all means available be implemeted to try and rehabilitate. You wanting and/or insistng to try harder in the rehabilitation phase is admirable and it would be ideal and great to see you succeed. But as sure as the Sun will rise tomorrow, that will never be 100% successful. Yes that's rather sad to see in any society, and a shame we cannot all start from the same scratch mark in our lives and what we do with that life. And again, many people, are faced with situations, where they have been wronged by society and unfairly treated, but still rise above it. Your's and Dimreeper's hearts are probably in the right place, and no one has really argued against the system you both would like established, but it just isn't feasible or possible with the variables in human society.

And a couple of great cover versions of well know songs......1st The Beach Boys doing Buddy's Peggy Sue....... And Caramia by Gene Pitney previously by Jay and the Americans....

I'm describing a situation where the generous alternatives to a prison justice system, has been granted and failed miserably. The scenario that two others are championing.

You can't, agreed, we can never with a 100% certainty. But again sometimes [analogous to an hypothesis advancing to theory stage] the evidence is such [as per re-offending with the same crime after parole] that we must consider it as "highly likely" that a re-offence will occur...Not trying to teach Granny to suck eggs, but most scientific theory, remain as that, we are always open to further observational and experimental evidence, modifying or changing that theory. [1]which one is the greater danger? ANS: The obvious continued danger to society after throwing away a lifeline given to him.[previous parole] [2]How do you confine them for life without violating their rights? ANS: After throwing away their previous lifeline,[parole] coupled with the brutality and violence of the crime, not to mention "caught in the act" do they really have any rights left? Which incidently as I have mentioned, is why I am against the death penalty. That is reasonably final.😉

You have already given a definition...but anyway, my own definition is a court sanctioned deserved burden/retribution, in line with the relevant justice system, for crimes against that system. While not that into Kant, his definition, seems to hold and be similar to mine anyway. Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember you quoting some biblical passage or similar throughout this merry-go-round. 😜 I don't believe the argument is inconsistent. In fact I see it as analogous in applying the scientific methodology. eg: If we look at the real example I gave, the perpetrator was already on parole for rape, OK? That may or may not have been justified at the time, [analogous to a hypothetical] but in hindsight, it obviously was not justified, because within a short time, he decided again to rape and torture, this time a little girl, plus to stab and harm the rescuer/heros when he was caught in the act. I think at this stage, it becomes fairly certain that this monster cannot be rehabilitated, and is a definite danger to society...we have gone from his parole, [a hypothesis] to a reoffend and total disregard for his fellow human being, and consequently his new life sentence, because of the greatly increased evidence for re-offence. [analogous to a definite scientific theory] in other words based on the evidence available this bloke would very likely offend again. Note: I am talking specifically about serious violent crime.

I share your doubt...And I'm not that much into philosophy but anyway since you asked....... https://www.google.com/search?q=kant+and+punsishment&rlz=1C1RXQR_en-GBAU952AU952&oq=kant+and+punsishment&aqs=chrome..69i57.8639j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 Kant advocated two principles regarding how punishment should be administered. (1) People should be punished simply because they have committed crimes, and for no other reason. (2) Punishment should be proportionate to the crime. Notice that utilitarianism does not endorse either of these principles.

Bingo!

Perahps in your mind, certainly not in mine or that generally held by the majority in a democratic society.

https://www.google.com/search?q=is+punsishment+part+of+a+reasoanble+justice+system&rlz=1C1RXQR_en-GBAU952AU952&oq=is+punsishment+part+of+a+reasoanble+justice+system&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i10i22i29i30.19288j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 "Is punishment part of justice? that retribution is the only legitimate form of punishment the court can prescribe: ... Kant regarded punishment as a matter of justice, which must be carried out by the state for the sake of the law, not for the sake of the criminal or the victim" “Justice,” as another put it, “is a rational judgment involving fairness in which the wrongdoer receives punishment deserving of his/her crime.” ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Pretty sure I have said similar somewhere earlier in this or the torture thread. I would add that there are a few types of punishment evident in any reasonable justice system, all designed first and foremost to suit the crime.....prison, retribution, to deter, and yes, you guessed it, attemps at rehabilitation.

I have, with a heap of cases in this and the torture thread. And I'm not really interested in Buddhism, Kung fu [ could be contrued as punishment, even torture] or Pandas, as cute as they are, along with the Dalai Lama of course. PS: I don't at all have faith in the scientific method, rather trust, due to its success rate and logic.

No I am not a scientist, and I'm pretty sure I have made that point known in my time here...A retired maintenance Fitter/Machinist/welder that left school at the age of 16, and has absolutely no university education at all. Read plenty due to my interest in astronomy/cosmology, and hold science and the scientific methodology to be the best system by many lengths. And I couldn't disagree more with your hypothesis that evil does not exist, despite the teachings and so called learnings of buddhism. And no, quantum mechanics is not magic at all but a well evidenced scientific theory describing the quantum/Planck world under a different set of rules and regulations. It simply does not operate under Newtonian concepts that we are familiar with. Emotions are part and parcel of who and what we are...we all love, hate etc And while emotions probably do play a part in any justice system, punishment is most certainly also a rational response to anyone that commits a serious criminal act. That doesn't mean all justice systems are totally fair and just of course, but I am pretty sure I have given more then one example of how our westernised justice systems, are in the main, equitable and accessible, and at least make best efforts to be just that...fair and just for all.

And he did a sterling job! Although the first Captain Ahab played by Gregory Peck was memorable One of my favourite reads when about 11 years old!!!

One of the consequences of climate change is an increase in extreme weather events, and while bushfires per se are an integral part of the Australian landscape, [ numerous plant species depend on fire to regenerate....Indigenous Australians used fire as a means of land management] the severity and frequency of them is a cause for alarm. And that without doubt seems to also now being played out in the Northern hemisphere...couple that with the increased number of cyclones/hurricanes etc, some out of season, and the "one in a 1000 year drought" now devastating part of Northern America, https://phys.org/news/2021-08-year-drought-west-desalination-solution.html and I put it to you that there is a need for concern. PS: The hazard reduction burns that are now being carried out in and around the Blue Mountains and Sydney, coupled with temperature inversion layers, are causing the smoke to settle over Sydney and playing havoc with the Mrs asthma, but obviously necessary to help avert another upcoming disasterous Summer.

[1] you can call me beecee. [2] havn't got one really. [3] you have my take on punishment, but in summing, "a justified consequence for an unlawful act" No I havn't read the fictional novel you mention, and if by any stretch of the imagination, my Son did what the evil criminal did, yes most certainly, I would want the same punishment. But my Son was raised properly, now an adult and successful in his own right, and that included corporal punishment administered when he was a kid, when necessary, thankfully not too often. On the rest of your utterings, perhaps you need to be straight to the point, and drop the cryptic references.

No problems. If I can make someone aware that we aint all generally reasonable, caring human beings, then I'm satisified. And no, I am definitely not your self rightious totally law abiding citizen. Just a knock about, sometimes maybe uncouth contributor and part of society in general. ps: Have never, and I mean never, used the computer for anything else but information, banking etc......a game console in my house, it never has been.

Crackpots like other undesirables always will exist....They have what I call the "f&^% you I'm alright Jack" mentality...If it aint dramatically affecting, them, their children, their great grand kids, it's not worth their worrying about. Out of sight, out of mind is another little ditty that comes to mind when speaking with them. It will take a catastrophic world event before they will listen...same ratbags exist under the guise of anti vaxxers.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0085531 Abstract Motivated by recent efforts by the criminal justice system to treat and rehabilitate nonviolent offenders rather than focusing solely on their punishment, we introduce an evolutionary game theoretic model to study the effects of “carrot and stick” intervention programs on criminal recidivism. We use stochastic simulations to study the evolution of a population where individuals may commit crimes depending on their past history, surrounding environment and, in the case of recidivists, on any counseling, educational or training programs available to them after being punished for their previous crimes. These sociological factors are embodied by effective parameters that determine the decision making probabilities. Players may decide to permanently reform or continue engaging in criminal activity, eventually reaching a state where they are considered incorrigible. Depending on parameter choices, the outcome of the game is a society with a majority of virtuous, rehabilitated citizens or incorrigibles. Since total resources may be limited, we constrain the combined punishment and rehabilitation costs per crime to be fixed, so that increasing one effort will necessarily decrease the other. We find that the most successful strategy in reducing crime is to optimally allocate resources so that after being punished, criminals experience impactful intervention programs, especially during the first stages of their return to society. Excessively harsh or lenient punishments are less effective. We also develop a system of coupled ordinary differential equations with memory effects to give a qualitative description of our simulated societal dynamics. We discuss our findings and sociological implications. what you said..... contained? yep, as society and the law dictates...in prison, and as you have agree to previous, sometimes the key thrown away. That's OK, *shrug* all factual though. I'm never particulalrly sorry for any person whether in a position of power or not, that is the perpetrator of a crime and jailed. I believe all should be [and mostly are] treated with those three principals in mind...[1]Punishment [2] protection of victim and society, [3] Rehabilitation. My apologies if I gave the impression we are perfect. We are not. I have already said that racism exists here, although not to the extent as in the USA. We have had Police charged and convicted over black deaths in custody. My position is one that you already know...justice without what is normally recognised as torture, meaning adequate punishment, protection of society and possible rehabilitation. Society enforces the first two, the third needs genuine co-operation with the criminal. I'm pretty sure you understand that.

Obviously he did spoil it for others, so as not to make the same mistake, and agree with your last senetnce, contained in prison and the key thrown away. Normal?? you mean the death camps and gas chambers and incinerators were normal? Yeah sure some racism exists, even in Australia, but you really are stretching the friendship in comparing it to the holocaust and attempted extinguishing of an entire race. Just another question if I may, Do you believe they were too hard on the copper that killed George Floyd and that the judge and jury did not show a sufficient amount of sympathy for the poor old copper? Heads of state are and have faced justice in my country many times and gone to jail while in office...there money and influence meant nothing. Our justice system didn't give a rat's arse about there standings in the community. I posted it before but here it is again...Trump it appears, speaking as an outsider of course, simply had too many republican supporters in your house. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_politicians_convicted_of_crimes You will also [I hope] note that most were also given other forms of punishment and sometimes leniancy shown, as it generally is for all in society, and in some cases, jail was the only punishment.

Personally, I see philosophy as having laid down the groundwork for science to adhere by, and thereby holds a respected position. but like Lawrence Krauss' recent account, I think it now in many respects has been absorbed by science and scientific endeavours anyway.eg: A universe from nothing and the redefining of nothing...the only scientific answer to life, being abiogenesis.

Let me reword my previous answer to that, [not much sleep last night]what beecee should have said was.... Sorry for not expressing myself clearly in the first reply....

Science advances as technology allows for further and further observations and the data that it entails. Best examples of that are that in the early fifities, Mercury was thought of as the smallest planet, then in the next decade we found that to be invalid. In fact it is Pluto, until in more recent times, Pluto was demoted to a dwarf planet along with some of the asteroids. We also at one time believed that the Milky Way was it. Further observations showed that to be wrong.