beecee

There have been mountains of articles written on what prison does and what it doesn't do. While some alternatives for minor and petty crime have been implemented, [parole, house arrests, suspended sentences, reduced sentences, retribution etc] other more extreme features are rejected. Features that diminish or reject punishment for crimes of extreme violence and atrocities. In general, I don;t believe they do, at least in my society. I could raise an incident of a member of a "racist rapist" that gang raped a number of young girls in western Sydney that looks like getting parole...the outcry from the general public has already begun. But his parole looks certain so far, after 20 years in prison. And I see revenge more as a personal rather the justice which is that handed down by the courts, based on the law. It doesn't mean lock them all up. Rehabilitation takes many forms that have already been accepted in most justice systems. We are talking of the most severe, most violent, most dispicable of crimes, and in many of those cases, no remorse or regret is shown. Prisons cater for this. Yes, as am I. But at present we have a conservative government in both Federal and my state in Australia, and I never voted for either. I will bide my time until the next elections and hope that others judge them as I have. [1]Deranged most probably, afterall most humans would not have done what he did, and obviously deranged or not, he still needs to be kept away from society. [2] He was also at the time of his rape of the little girl, already out on parole, for guess what? yes the rape of another woman! But a well meaning magistrate still granted him parole. What that animal has actually done, besides the horrific crime he commited, is make it harder for other criminals that may deserve parole or shorter sentences, far less likley to have them granted. Does that trouble you any? If that attempt at rehabilitation and/or sympathy for him, had been refused, he would have still been in jail. [3] I'm not really sure what his background was, but it certainly does not lessen the severity of his violent crime, and his now life sentence he has rightly received. Here it is again.......https://www.sbs.com.au/news/sydney-man-sentenced-to-life-in-jail-for-rape-of-seven-year-old-girl-in-kogarah-dance-studio/cd82b2f2-2808-4956-97a7-c0b036eddcd3 Assasination attempts were also tried with Hitler, but I'm still at a loss to follow you. In all my rhetoric, I have emphasised a normal western society. His was not normal, but a society based on hatred and racism Again, I made two points, [1] if he had not been a coward and taken the evil way out, he would have finally faced justice, and [2] When the Allies came across his death camps, they forced in many cases, the general populace to view and observe the sickening inhumane atrocities of the animal they had originally elected as their leader. [3]Trump may not have been prosecuted, [we are talking about the invasion of the White House] but his redneck supporters were, at least some of them. I hope they face the full force of your law. Many of the participants in our violent anti vaxxer march, certainly did with hefty fines, and some kept in prison with bale refused. Any orderly society will always still contain anti social elements. Prison will cater for the more violent and fanatical of these. Totally agree. Perhaps more segregation in prison for the perpetrators of minor and petty crimes, and young offenders, from the animals that are described in my prime example. I also see and have mentioned about perpetrators of victimless crimes. The other point I would like to make, was the previous list of members of governments that have been convicted of serious crime in my country, and how in many cases, some have had to be segregated for their own good. There money did them no good in prison.

Again try arguing in good faith. I did not say that. I said....... In reply to your statement thus..... Got it?

Your cynical view may well have some grounds of truth, but it has nothing to do with prisons for incorrigibles and violent offenders, nor is it totally uniform across the system. Here is a list of Aussie politicians that have been charged with crime, been jailed, and dismissed from their relative parties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_politicians_convicted_of_crimes Wrong again...I'm speaking of a democratic society that elects or dismisses its leaders, based on results. I did, quite thoroughly. A dangerous dog in most cases [not all mind you] is a result of a person who should never own a dog or any animal for that matter. What fellow humans? Hitler? the animal that raped the little girl...the ISIS suicide bombers? Your too kind dear Sir! No I am not religious at all, but have nothing against religious people, unless they reach that extreme fanatical stage, as per the animal suicide bombers today, and their overlords. Isn't it about time you argued in good faith, and stop muddying the waters with nonsense and philosophical jargon?

I must say at this time, I am unaware of the exact rules that apply in the wheel chair rugby, but it seems it is based on some point system that aligns with the actual disability of the individual. Will check that out tomorrow.

You once again, have it all wrong....It's society in general that insists on justice, based on the popular meaning of justice. Not sure of your intentions and reasons [actually I am] but I saw wise words in his "So maybe there's no "one size fits all" approach is the take-away here". which is what I have been saying since page 1. Because sometimes the barbaric violence and cruelty inflicted by monsters on human beings, is beyond any sympathetic feelings.eg: The case of the little girl I gave....Adolf Hitler...the movement behind the suicide bombings in Kabul today. That will do for starters. Again you have it all wrong in making this so personal...your political/philosophical postion is your business...my position is societies position, which includes rehabilitation, in its many forms for the criminal as listed. Mandela and Gandhi while fighting against extreme injustices, were not personally subject to torture, rape or murder. They were exceptional stand out men. I'm sure also both would agree with prison being a part of any justice system, and when in Mandella's case, he finally came to power, did not abolish prisons. He knew there was a need for them and always will be. You see with all due respect, you are not considering what I and others are saying, blinded by your political/philosophical position...otherwise you would agree, not withstanding your death penalty cop out.

Watching the Paralympics....Awe inspiring on so many levels!!!😲 Specifically a one legged cyclist in the velodrome! Not sure how he maintaned balance...the the wheel chair rugby...Holy shit!!! talk about kamikaze efforts [Aust vs Japanese game!! Literally throwing there wheel chairs at each other...and get this, men and women together!!! Human spirit, ability and determination at its most thrilling!!!

Science is what we know; Philosophy is what we don't know. Bertrand Russell: But still both very important.... Science gives us explanations, data and knowledge about the Universe. It gives us the how and even the why. Philosophy is more or less based on an ideology that may or may not benefit a society and in gaining wisdom and establishing ethics to hopefully make for a better society. Without science, philosophical questions may never be answered. Without a foundation of good philosophical ethics, science may lack direction.

Coincidently, the gate where some of the US forces were killed, was earlier being manned by Australian defence forces. Deepest sympathies to those US forces killed and of course the many civilians....So sad, so distressing! I may have that wrong re the manning of that gate..... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-27/kabul-airport-suicide-bombing-australian-soldiers-depart/100411880 Australian troops had left Afghanistan before a deadly suicide bombing attack that killed soldiers and civilians at Kabul's international airport, Defence Minister Peter Dutton says. At least 60 people including 13 US troops were killed in two bomb blasts orchestrated by Islamic State group (IS) offshoot ISIS-K. Mr Dutton said the blasts occurred at the Baron Hotel and Abbey Gate airport entrance, where Australians were being brought through, but that Australian soldiers were safe. "I can confirm that not too long before the attack Australian troops and the rest of our personnel were wheels up and out of Kabul," Mr Dutton said. "I'm just so grateful they are safe." The Defence Minister confirmed Australia's military evacuation mission has ended.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/08/26/world/afghanistan-taliban-biden-news Live Afghanistan Updates: ‘We Will Not Forgive,’ Biden Says, Vowing Retaliation for Kabul Attack The president spoke out after the attack that killed scores at the Kabul airport, among them 13 U.S. service members. He vowed to continue the evacuation of Americans. Here’s what you need to know: President Biden condemns terrorist attack and vows to hunt down those responsible. Bombs strike Kabul airport, killing at least 13 U.S. troops and dozens of Afghan civilians. Scenes of chaos after blasts rock area around Kabul airport. The Kabul attack recalls the deadliest day for U.S. forces in Afghanistan, a decade ago. After blasts, experts see a fertile ground for terrorists. Most remaining American citizens prepare to evacuate. A former U.S. general has made it his mission to help vulnerable Afghans evacuate. Devastation at one airport has left many fearful at another across the world. https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/western-nations-race-complete-afghan-evacuation-deadline-looms-2021-08-25/ A Taliban spokesman described the attack as the work of "evil circles" who would be suppressed once foreign troops leave. Western countries fear that the Taliban, who once sheltered Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda, will allow Afghanistan to turn again into a haven for militants. The Taliban say they will not let the country be used by terrorists.

There are people who commit serious violent crimes and atrocities, who can never be safely "managed" within the community. Jail is the only option. While we can certainly reduce prison populations, by the presnt reforms and rehabilitation options that are open within most justice systems, and probably also improvements be made and adopted within the system, sadly some individuals will never be reformed, will never show remorse for what they have done, and never be rehabilitated, There are also some crimes against society, that can never really be forgiven or remain unpunished. Victimless crimes perhaps need to be viewed in a different category, and I fully agree with probable serious reform for that category. Sadly, that's the state of play in the world at present. This may be of interest to some........ https://www.aic.gov.au/publications/rr/rr9 Justice reinvestment in Australia: A review of the literature: Abstract: Justice reinvestment (JR) is a data-driven approach to reducing criminal justice system expenditure and improving criminal justice system outcomes through reductions in imprisonment and offending. JR is a comprehensive strategy that employs targeted, evidence-based interventions to achieve cost savings that can be reinvested to further improve social and criminal justice outcomes.JR has gained a great deal of support in Australia, with a number of JR strategies in operation or under development. This report examines the concepts and approaches behind JR and how it might best be applied in Australia. The report shows that while JR faces some challenges in Australia, it also offers substantial potential to improve justice system outcomes. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Certainly has my total support. https://www.unodc.org/dohadeclaration/en/news/2017/01/unodc-gathers-penal-reform-leaders-from-across-the-globe-to-promote-prison-rehabilitation--reintegration-and-tackle-re-offending.html UNODC gathers penal reform leaders from across the globe to promote prison rehabilitation, reintegration and tackle re-offending: 3 January 2017 - The issue of prison-based rehabilitation is a complex one: while prisoners typically face a range of social, economic and personal challenges that may complicate their social reintegration into society, prisons often lack sufficient infrastructure, programmes, and resources, and may even exacerbate these problems. At the same time, the vast majority of prisoners will eventually be released and return to society. In order to reduce re-offending, it is therefore crucial to actively prepare prisoners for their successful re-settlement in society through both prison-based programmes and post-release support. Recognizing this reality, the crucial importance of the rehabilitation of prisoners for achieving sustainable development was highlighted at the 13th United Nations Crime Congress, held in Doha, in 2015. Since then, UNODC - with financial support from Qatar - has been working on a wide-ranging Global Programme for the Implementation of the Doha Declaration, including on this issue. more at link.......................... ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: In essence, prison, and justice reforms are being undertaken, around the world in actual fact, but by the same token, no talk of elimination of prisons and certainly no silly "one size fits all" is entertained. Common sense with reform, and the realisation that some people will not be rehabilitated, appears to be their goal, which I support. Again as I mentioned, imo the most obvious is victimless crimes.

And just as many get good deals like parole, suspended sentences, house arrests etc, and guess what? re-offend. I gave a great example of that with a far more serious violent crime.

Originally made a faux pas here's the bloke that is still going strong [relatively speaking] is nick-named the Killer...this one...

Perhaps we are living inside a universe inside a BH, inside a universe, inside a BH, inside......forget about the turtles, perhaps its BH's all the way down. 😉

Bingo!!! Nicely summed up in all respects. No one here is being some hard line Ogre, asking that all criminals be locked up and the key thrown away...just those misfits that thumb their noses at society in general,and don't give a stuff to what pain they cause or can cause. Some nice real examples, but also there are many more...As a wise man said [just up there a bit] "So maybe there's no "one size fits all" approach is the take-away here". We can be sure of that fact. Which brings us back to square one.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz_B8JP2pA8

Retribution, deterrence, punishment, protection, justice, or improvement, are all reasons. I don't know anyone in the cases I have mentioned, they are simply horrific cases that occured, and received extensive news coverage. They are all cases, both here and in the torture thread, that prompted revulsion from observers such as myself. They are a small sample of society that through their actions, destroyed any and all feelings of rehabilitation from the society at large. This is why society at large, despite all the attempted psychological and philosophical recommendations of "extensive" reform, has been rejected. I say extensive, because again, reform has already been made and is part and parcel of the justice system. That's probably also correct for some of us...at least concerning minor crime. But murder?...extreme cruelty and extreme violence? aggravated rape? I can say with near certainty, that I am beyond that and I would think most people would be. Personally, I am horrified by the sight of blood, to the point of near fainting and am even turned off by some modern day movies, and there attempts at realism. Possibly my position on this, and I believe societies position, is driven by feelings that it is simply inhumane to commit such atrocities and that reflects on their rejection of any easing of the current prisons and justice systems for these non humans that commit such atrocities. I remember when the Allied powers marched into the death camps of Hitler, how they shamed the population of towns around the concentration camps, by forcing them to view scenes of such atrocities. Who in their right mind feels sorry for Hitler and the heads of that regime? The main essential point I make, is that the status quo exists for a small group.

Perhaps both are relevent and desirable. As someone mentioned in the torture thread, is a slap on the hand of a child that is misbehaving, torture? I bet my short n curlies, that some still complain about the leniancy, comfort, and facilities of that previous Scandinavian prison system that was discussed earlier. Reminds me of another old addage, "you can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you will never please all of the people all of the time".

We also had a own version of the King of rock n roll...while never having the great voice of Elvis, his looks, charisma etc, he was energetic, a showman, entrepeneur and prolific record producer. He also like Elvis, died at the young age of 42 years. Oh, and I forgot to mention, I went to school with him, a Christian Brothers college, at least until he was expelled, but never had a beer with him! 😉 we were too young at that stage...he was always a bit of a larrikan.

https://newatlas.com/physics/gravitational-waves-dark-matter-black-hole/ Never-before-detected gravitational waves hint at dark matter: A new type of gravitational wave detector running in Western Australia has recorded two rare events that might be signals of dark matter or primordial black holes. These high-frequency gravitational waves are beyond the range of most detectors and have never been recorded before. Gravitational waves are ripples in the very fabric of spacetime, first predicted by Einstein over a century ago but not directly detected until 2015. In the years since, dozens of detections have been made, mostly by facilities like LIGO, which can detect waves with frequencies between 7 kHz and 30 Hz. That’s in the range for waves produced by cataclysmic events like black holes and neutron stars colliding. But gravitational waves are also expected to fall outside that range. Two experiments are currently searching for very high frequency waves, which could represent other cosmic events or objects. And now the first batch of data has been returned for one of these experiments, including two detections of particular interest. The project is run by the ARC Center of Excellence for Dark Matter Particle Physics (CDM) and the University of Western Australia, and it’s based on a unique type of gravitational wave detector, known as a bulk acoustic wave (BAW) resonator. more at link.................. the paper: https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.127.071102 Rare Events Detected with a Bulk Acoustic Wave High Frequency Gravitational Wave Antenna ABSTRACT: This work describes the operation of a high frequency gravitational wave detector based on a cryogenic bulk acoustic wave cavity and reports observation of rare events during 153 days of operation over two separate experimental runs (run 1 and run 2). In both run 1 and run 2, two modes were simultaneously monitored. Across both runs, the third overtone of the fast shear mode (3B) operating at 5.506 MHz was monitored; whereas in run 1, the second mode was chosen to be the fifth overtone of the slow shear mode (5C) operating at 8.392 MHz. However, in run 2, the second mode was selected to be closer in frequency to the first mode; and it was chosen to be the third overtone of the slow shear mode (3C) operating at 4.993 MHz. Two strong events were observed as transients responding to energy deposition within acoustic modes of the cavity. The first event occurred during run 1 on 12 May 2019 (UTC), and it was observed in the 5.506 MHz mode; whereas the second mode at 8.392 MHz observed no event. During run 2, a second event occurred on 27 November 2019 (UTC) and was observed by both modes. Timings of the events were checked against available environmental observations as well as data from other detectors. Various possibilities explaining the origins of the events are discussed. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Additional GW news.... https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/news/ligo20210817 New material to improve the range of gravitational wave detectors News Release • August 17, 2021 The ability of the gravitational-wave observatories to study the physics of large-scale events, such as the collision of black holes and neutron stars, is actually limited by physics at the microscopic scale. Specifically, the random molecular thermal motion in the laser interferometer mirrors generates a noise large enough to cover the faintest signals coming from the universe. Research on improved amorphous materials to be used in higher performance mirrors has been going on for the last two decades, resulting only in marginal improvement with respect to the thermal noise of first-generation detectors. Our results show that a novel material, a mixture of titanium oxide and germanium oxide, would allow reduction in the thermal noise coming from mirror coatings by a factor of two, the largest improvement ever measured, paving the way to the next generation of gravitational wave detectors. These new mirror coatings, together with other planned upgrades, will nearly double the observatories’ reach, allowing probing a volume of the universe almost 8 times larger than what is possible today. We expect to be able to increase the detection rate of gravitational waves from once a week to once a day or more. Published in Phys. Rev. Lett. 127, 071101 (2021). the paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/2108.04954 Low mechanical loss TiO2:GeO2 coatings for reduced thermal noise in Gravitational Wave Interferometers: The sensitivity of current and planned gravitational wave interferometric detectors is limited, in the most critical frequency region around 100 Hz, by a combination of quantum noise and thermal noise. The latter is dominated by Brownian noise: thermal motion originating from the elastic energy dissipation in the dielectric coatings used in the interferometer mirrors. The energy dissipation is a material property characterized by the mechanical loss angle. We have identified mixtures of titanium dioxide (TiO2) and germanium dioxide (GeO2) that show internal dissipations at a level of 1 ×10−4, low enough to provide almost a factor of two improvement on the level of Brownian noise with respect to the state-of-the-art materials. We show that by using a mixture of 44% TiO2 and 56% GeO2 in the high refractive index layers of the interferometer mirrors, it would be possible to achieve a thermal noise level in line with the design requirements. These results are a crucial step forward to produce the mirrors needed to meet the thermal noise requirements for the planned upgrades of the Advanced LIGO and Virgo detectors.

Time and distance, the two great barriers to interstellar/galactic contact. I often find myself wondering about how things were technologically speaking, when I was a kid, to how things are now. How powerful and wonderful is the Internet! How things might be when our grandkids are our age, leads to even greater wonderment.

Pot kettle black. To spell it out for you, justice as defined by our law makers, in a reasonable westernised society, is specifically a reflection of that society. If society was to be reflected even more accurately, many criminals that are given parole, would have that parole revoked, and many sentences would be much longer. It's society old friend that dictates that your softly softly, wishy washy approach will never work, despite your pages of philosophical banter, and dancing and dodging around the issue, and the mountains and mountains of studies and questionable statistics that support your stance. Reality my friend, stands in the way. The citing of awful deeds [specifically the one's I am familiar with], is nothing more then illustrating that for such deeds, the perpetrator needs to be punished, incarcerated and separated from society, and the fact that such people sadly do exist. That is what the average Joe Blow in the street, sees as justice. As has been shown, Joe Blow rejects the many studies and philosophical stance that takes and supports the softly, softly approach...specifically when rehabilitiation methods, compassion and sympathy for the perpertator, is already within the system, some of which I have listed, and yet strangely no comment at all on those methods. Punishment that fits the crime, is part and parcel of our justice system, as is genuine attempts at rehabilitation and acts of compassion, like house arrests, suspended sentences, parole, ankle bracelets. When we think further, there is even more examples of attempts to rehabilitae a criminal with kindness and compassion...things like restitutional fines, community service, work release, probabtion and psychiatric treatment for drug dependency etc. Let me again make it clear [not particularly for yourself] Our justice system reflects the wants of society. Society rejects the softly softly, wishy washy approach, for serious violent criminal acts, similar to the one's I have detailed. The same society that accepts the lists of examples of criminal consideration that I listed above, specifically for the perpetrators of minor crime, and showing that rehabilitation, and compassion for those is already in the system.

I was a fairly gregarious type of fella!😉

I've answered it, its simply an answer you don't want to hear. the protection is prison and being kept away from those he or she may cause harm to.....If you are suggesting that we change all prisons into holiday camps, with all the amenities of a holiday camp, then that is not justice as defined, and is not what a society would accept. Another question: 35 years ago in Sydney we had an horrific crime of a nurse being kidnapped by five young hoodlums, raped repeatedly, tortured and her throat cut while still alive. the details are here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Anita_Cobby There ages ranged from 19 to around 28 from memory with three brothers. All were senetnced "never to be released" two have since died in jail. The article lists their background and early life, and while not pretty, neither was what they did which the article covers. Question: do you think they were given unduly harsh sentences? Do you think any of them may have been rehabilitated. These are the animals that society expects to be punished and locked away.

An old Aussie group from the sixties, who I had the pleasure of having a few beers with...

I'm kind to all animals and have had many dogs. Humans I treat with respect, until they give me reason to not respect them. I also have an agenda...that is a love of the scientific method, and which I see in many ways applying here. BTW, I see the Dalai Lama as a generally friendly chap, and in many ways wise, but that doesn't make him infallible.

http://justiceandprisons.org/ Prisons and Rule of Law Prisons have a crucial role to play in upholding the rule of law, but in many parts of the world they are lawless sites of appalling suffering, incubators of disease or mere warehouses from which prisoners return to society poorly equipped to lead a law abiding life……. Prison Alternatives International law requires all countries to develop non custodial measures to reduce the use of imprisonment but people charged with or convicted of minor crimes still find themselves locked up in large numbers. How can alternatives help……. Prison Best Practices Sufficient staff, decent conditions, adequate health care and regular contact with the outside world are key to prisons meeting international and regional standards. How can this be achieved affordably…… ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: All three apply in my society and I would suggest your's if you are honest. 🤣 That's one way to get off the merry-go-round, and no real oppostion from me, although, I am generally against the death penalty. The thing you need to remember, is that he is not Robinson Crusoe. Check out the three or four incidents mentioned by me in the torture thread...I don't believe they would really be off topic here.