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My Mrs thinks Sydney's current covid19 lockdown is torture! All punishment can be defined as torture, some may benefit from it and be reformed, others not so. But some being a danger to society, means we have no choice in the matter. Society in general has and always will have, faults, misfits, and evil within. "Humans are the glory and the scum of the universe. We love and we loathe. We help and we harm. We reach out a hand and we stick in the knife." Blaise Pascal, in 1658:

Was going to abstain from this thread as my thoughts are by now well known. ..But the above makes sense to me, particularly the part I highlighted. While I'm here, let me relate another possible candidate for torture, 😉 When I was around 15/16 years old, and with a couple of mates around the same age, we were yahooing and playing the larrikan, by lighting and firing penny [at that tie] sky rockets across a busy Sydney thoroughfare, when someone called the cops. They rounded us all up and directed us all to get off home directly...The problem was that I had this dirty big Crown Sergeant standing on my toes, and telling me to "pissoff home" while he was standing on my toes with his big size 14's! Eventually though, he let me go, gave me a fair-thee-well whack over the noggin with his baton, and sent me sprawling on the footpath! I copped it all gracefully, as that would have been nothing to what my old man would have done to me had he found out!!😜

Multiple fluctuations in the quantum foam.

😉

and the beauty.... another of Andre Rieu sensual Sopranos, this time it is Carmen Monarcha, from Brazil...

One of my favourite/s illustrative photos of space, and the history of the universe. This view of nearly 10,000 galaxies is called the Hubble Ultra Deep Field. The snapshot includes galaxies of various ages, sizes, shapes, and colours. The smallest, reddest galaxies, about 100, may be among the most distant known, existing when the universe was just 800 million years old. The nearest galaxies - the larger, brighter, well-defined spirals and ellipticals - thrived about 1 billion years ago, when the cosmos was 13 billion years old. The image required 800 exposures taken over the course of 400 Hubble orbits around Earth. The total amount of exposure time was 11.3 days, taken between Sept. 24, 2003 and Jan. 16, 2004. Credit: NASA, ESA, and S. Beckwith (STScI) and the HUDF Team

You have been pretty ambiguous at best, while I have given examples on what I believe is, and what I believe is not torture. A sanitised society is a nice goal, giving one a warm inner glow, but also rather pretentious imo. I said it earlier, I conduct my life according to my principles, which I believe to be fairly reasonable and without any political agenda. I see extreme left propaganda as bad as extreme right propaganda. And I'm also no Angel, even now in my old age. The society I am luckily a part of, I believe to be also reasonable, while certainly with evil and undesirable aspects...that's life sadly...it takes all kinds to make up our world, also sometimes sadly. I also understand [as you pointed out] that there are many other societies that have it far worse, in fact bordering on actions such as torturing of their citizens everyday. I, or more correctly my family, have to the best of our ability, tried to "help out" such societies, by the only means we know how...sponsoring our second child from Africa. Thankfully, we are in a position to do this, many others are not. Let me sign off with telling you I have also tried my best. Thanks for the debate and some interesting thoughts, and my apologies if I have at times gone of track in trying to create a picture of where I am coming from.

I've read a bit about super string theory and its derivities, including M-theory, and while according to the professionals, they are intrinsically beautiful theories, the problem being that the chances of observation and validation at such levels, [quantum/Planck level] and numerous dimensions above the currently known four, are virtually nil, as I believe the case to be with any validated QGT, even with LHC and other such instruments. Is this a reasonable understanding of it? One relevant book was "Hyperspace" by Michio Kaku.

Here's another beauty, a Russian this time, Anna Netbreko, flirting with the orchestra and audience, singing Meine Lippen sie Kussen so heiss, My Lips kiss with such fire!

Love it!!! A song I believe most of us are familiar with would be "Nessun Dorma" Most of us [well at least me] have never heard it sung by a woman just by the likes of Pavarotti, Carreras and Domingo....until now...and brilliantly done by Sarah Brightman.... Another is Granada...this time sung by my all time favourite singer, and the biggest female record seller in the world, Nana Mouskouri....

I suggest you read the first page with posts by yourself, me and others, before attempting to narrow discussion down to just that. Rather telling I suspect. As I said, we all know what torture is, and so far all agree that its practise is abhorent. The debate in actual fact has come down to what you wrongly claim is torture. I have made that pretty clear that we all know what torture is, and what I believe isn't torture. You chose dancing around and ambiguity, that which strangely you accused me of earlier.

The question was in regards to physical torture as dished out by criminals and other dysfunctional aspects of society. Again you seem to want to pick and chose what suits your own agenda. I can.Here this might help. Physical torture is abhorent in any society. Those that practise it, the criminals, the incorridgible prisoners, the agenda laden rednecks that defy authority, the corrupt police, the corrupt politicians, and government officials that over step the mark, are all abhorent and a blight on society in general. They are illustrations of physical torture. No, not at all. All we can do is go on the evidence. Or again, are you suggesting we throw open all the prison doors? Plus of course any innocent person released after been deemed innocent, should certainly be compensated for such injustices. Some may view it as being taken out of context. Again all you are doing is refusing to discuss anything that happens to put a hole in your agenda. The man concerned in my link, was a violent criminal that was released early on parole, then in very short time, proceeded to rape, and torture a young girl for 40 minutes. I'm sure though that you now agree that he will rot in prison for life. The title of this thread is "what do you think of physical torture?" I reckon every man and his dog understands what physical torture involves. It isn't slapping a child on the wrist, or smacking a bully who has harmed you, in the mouth. It isn't "measured police" actions to quell a riot or stop an illegality, It isn't throwing a woman on the ground who has spat at you for the second time and after a warning, It isn't any of those things, it isn't sentencing a low life paroled prisoner to life inprisonment for the violent tortuous rape of a little girl. It isn't any of those things. Those that undertake violence and torture, can come from any section of society, including police and authority, as well as ordinary Joe Blow around the corner. We all know what torture is.

Well then why not discuss "physical torture" as dished out by certified, dangerous criminals, rednecks and other street rabble? So you chose to pick and chose what aspects of physical torture, cruelty etc that suits your fancy? An unreasonable attitude in my book. To some degree?☺️ You trip the light fanatstic very well. Yep distastful certainly. And no I don't want them tortured and you are being dishonest in saying that. All I want is justice to match the crime, and for them to be punished for their crime, along with attempts at reformation. If that fails, throw the book at them. Not really, simply a fact that I am not aware of anyone innocent and in prison, and the examples you give are also obviously the exceptions rather then the rule, or are you suggesting that everyone in prison is innocent and that we throw open all the doors of our prisons and correctional centres? But just a passing thought...why only put in the first sentence of what I said. Do you think that is honest? or smart? Here is the full text..."I'm not actually aware of anyone that is innocent and in prison, but obviously there might be, I don't know. There have been innocent people executed, which I have commented on, and a reason why I prefer life in prison, rather then capital punishment. And likewise I am also critical of persons in authority abusing their power and have said so many times." Sure, there are countries where ordinary people are having a hard time of it with injustices etc...China probably at the forefront of that. Why not campaign in those places instead of taking a reactionary stance against aspects such as police at unruly against the law marches. Certain states in the US, under Trump of course maybe another. But again, all the examples I have given, that concern authority in my country, have been police using appropriate force, including that policeman with the woman that spat at him. But I would again say that the crooked and dangerous coppers in the USA, are still only a fraction of the greater decent overall police force, and that that far bigger reasonable percentage, also feel the same way about the Floyd killers and other "shoot first and ask later" incidents in the USA. Like I said, when you have a problem, who you gunna call! Depends. I support the extra powers police have been given to reign in the rednecks and conspiracy pushers, marching and promoting anarchy against medical advice in wearing masks and vaccinations. I also fully support the harder line now taken on prisoners applying for parole after the violent rape and torture of a little girl by a prisoner on parole...you know, the one you don't want to talk about. I support necessary powers given to those in authorty to reign in the criminals, drug pushers and other instigators of violence and torture.

While I only glanced through your link earlier, I now have given it the attention it deserves. Complicated to say the least, and obviously highly politically motivated. None of that though, excuses the Italian police force, and obviously government's of both Britian and Italy, [including their comments and in the case of Britian and Tony Blair's, lack of comments], on this extraordinary act of violence, cruelty and torture. Irrespective of the complications involved, a great wrong was done and obviously the Italian Police involved disgraced the whole of the Police force and Italy as a society also, particularly how justice was not fully served. Very sad. Thankfully though as I said, while it probably is not an isolated case of corruption, cruelty, and torture by authority, it is still more an exception [thankfully] rather then the rule.

What I said was that I agreed with that case, 100% without any proviso. And of course gave the opposite example re redneck criminals marching against the law, and pratctising violence and torture. I remain unbias and see wrong doing as it is on either side, ignoring any political agenda. I gave links with details and would guess I could also find statistics supporting exactly what I am trying to convey to you. But yet you continue to focus on the Italian case and in the next breath, say you don't focus on hand picked crimes. Why not simply admit that there is evil and wrong doing on both sides of the fence, just as I have done since I started to take an interest in this thread? Why not? It's a documented case of an evil doer, that was in jail for a serious crime, and released on parole, only to straight away commit another act of cruelty and torture. I find that far more illustrative of physical torture and cruelty, [as per the thread title] then to brush aside because of a political agenda. Great! So you agree then that society does also need to incarcerate and in some cases throw away the key for the incorridgables in society, along with those in authority that practise evil. I am on topic. I'm detailing acts of cruelty and torture that you seem to find uninteresting. I'm not actually aware of anyone that is innocent and in prison, but obviously there might be, I don't know. There have been innocent people executed, which I have commented on, and a reason why I prefer life in prison, rather then capital punishment. And likewise I am also critical of persons in authority abusing their power and have said so many times. I'm sorry you haved lived in a Police state, I am luckier and have in general always lived in a reasonably free and democratic society, albeit having to sometimes [as in the present] put up with a government that imo is not handling government the way I would. But I am also entitled to vote [unlike other countires] and can and do make my feelings and preferences known. Then of course abide by the majority decision of society.

What you said was.... Obviously all protestors are not innocent, and while obviously you did not comment on the Sydney "protestors", it does need commenting on to show some balance and move away from a political agenda, to simply being a question of right or wrong. In your case, the Police were obviously wrong as I have alluded to more then once now...In the Sydney march, the vast majority of the protestors were nothing but politically driven rednecks, breaking a law/s. Yet you apparently do not find it serious enough to comment on? It certainly merits some comment, and has seen a reform in our state re parole for prisoners...sadly making it more difficult for those prisoners have shown some remorse for their crime and that may deserve parole. Agreed, and thankfully my definition of physical torture, along with the provisos, seem to be generally accepted. Sensational???How about what the judge said? Did you check out the link? We are talking about the 40 minute rape and torture of a little girl by a low life scumbag that some do gooders let out on parole? Thankfully, we will never have to worry about him again, other then a tax paid funeral in the future. What it shows is your own indecisive ambiguous answers to facts and links I have given, showing the evil and torture certain individuals commit in our society, and your opinions focused on the police and authorities being cruel, torturious and overly aggresive instead. I chose to be more attuned to the problem as starting and being initiated on most occasions by the dysfunctional people in our society, irrespective of upbringing and circumstances. Police and authorities to quote an old addage, are a necessary evil, the same as jail and correctional centres. We all, you and I included, are quick to phone them in the event of a problem or crime on our person. They are like Doctors, Nurses, health authorities etc, on the front line in this pandemic and deserve respect for that. Some themselves are criminals and evil, but that goes with any section of authority in our society. Those are the ones that need to be weeded out along with our crook politicians. I recognise that problem without any political bias. You seem overly critical of them,[the police] commenting only on the evil section of authority and yet ignoring the evil nature of some in general society.

On many occasions, as per the law breaking, march in Sydney by a bunch of rednecks, they are far from being "innocent protestors" and nothing more then agenda fueled criminals practicing their brand of violence and torture. Incidently if I didn't mention it before, the Police and authorities have received more than 6000 calls from concerned citizens, "dobbing in" some of these criminals as they are recognised from TV screens, and arrests still being made. In case I havn't made my position clear, again my definition of torture is as follows, including a harrowing account of a little girl being tortured for 45 minutes by a low life criminal, that a group of people pushing reform and such, decided to let out on parole.......Thankfully, he has now been given a life sentence. My definition of physical torture, being the act of inflicting severe physical or mental pain on a person. The next considerations ought to be, to what extent does corporal punishment, state sanctioned deprivation of freedom for a misdemeanor or crime, or parental policing of children, constitute physical torture? My answer to that is twofold....[1] In a society where someone commits a serious crime, the sentence/punishment should fit the crime, while every attempt is made to reform that person.[2] if someone has proven to be incorridgable and a continued danger to society, and beyond redemption, then lock them up and throw away the key. Crimes, really horrific crimes, would see life sentences considered, rather then capital punishment due to the possibilty as shown earlier of an error in judgement/conviction, keeping in mind the reformation of the criminal. Sometimes the softly softly approach is useless, particularly with young bullies, who are more likely to take advantage of bleeding hearts. This was illustrated with a prisoner in Sydney given parole for good behaviour, only to be found guilty of raping a little girl.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-12/anthony-sampieri-sentenced-for-dance-studio-child-rape/11955590 Key points: Anthony Sampieri sexually assaulted the young girl for 40 minutes He slashed people who tried to save the girl in 2018 with a knife He was on parole at the time of his attack

Our friend swansont has a far better handle on this then I do.

As others have said, if you travel in space, to the boundaries of our solar system, to the edge of our local group, to the edges and beyond of the Milky Way, you are not travelling back in time. We do though look back in time, as we view the outer universe because of the finite speed of light. Therefor light from those distant regions take time to reach Earth as an observer. BUT!! If you are travelling at relativistic speeds, and eventually return to Earth, you will be returning to an Earth in advance of the time that has passed for you. The example I have representing that is if you and I were twins, and I being the more intrepid, took of on a star ship and travelled for 6 months at 99.999%c, then turned around and travelled at the same speed back to Earth where I left you, I would be returing to an Earth around 230 years in the future, while only 12 months have passed on my ship board clocks and my own biological clock. [1] The BB is an intrinsic evolution/expansion of space in all directions. [2] Analogies have limitations but not sure if that is relevant. [3]The observable universe is generally isotropic and homogenous in all directions...we have no reason to assume anything different beyond our observable horizon, but who knows? [4]No, anything in the universe not gravitationally bound, is increasing in distance due to space expansion. That's my attempt at your questions and what I understand of those questions.

The link wasn't working first time round. What I'm talking about is the criminal act you referred to of prison officers and/or police, bashing inmates? 100% wrong!!

I would rather call it justified force by the Police. As I have agreed to, with the prisoner beatings, those involved should get there just desserts. I don't condone prisoners getting beat up. Of course! We even as I reported had a female prison officer dismissed for having sexual relations with an inmate. In essence, I have sympathy more for the victims of crime then those in jail for committing that crime. Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning it at all.

Have you ever seen police trying to quell a riot or stop an illegal march, having horses assaulted, flower pots thrown at them or ink being splurted all over them? In my country, as I said previously, they are generally brought to justice. You have any facts and/or figures on that happening more regularly?

Anything from being hung, drawn and quartered, to a slap on the wrist it seems. Which is why I made my going from the sublime to the ridiculous comment earlier. My definition of physical torture, being the act of inflicting severe physical or mental pain on a person. The next considerations ought to be, to what extent does corporal punishment, state sanctioned deprivation of freedom for a misdemeanor or crime, or parental policing of children, constitute physical torture? My answer to that is twofold....[1] In a society where someone commits a serious crime, the sentence/punishment should fit the crime, while every attempt is made to reform that person.[2] if someone has proven to be incorridgable and a continued danger to society, and beyond redemption, then lock them up and throw away the key. Crimes, really horrific crimes, would see life sentences considered, rather then capital punishment due to the possibilty as shown earlier of an error in judgement/conviction, keeping in mind the reformation of the criminal. Sometimes the softly softly approach is useless, particularly with young bullies, who are more likely to take advantage of bleeding hearts. This was illustrated with a prisoner in Sydney given parole for good behaviour, only to be found guilty of raping a little girl.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-12/anthony-sampieri-sentenced-for-dance-studio-child-rape/11955590 Key points: Anthony Sampieri sexually assaulted the young girl for 40 minutes He slashed people who tried to save the girl in 2018 with a knife He was on parole at the time of his attack Personal accounts with potential bullies and standing up to them, even if it means a minor act of violence, have shown me that this is generally the case. What do I mean by minor? [1] Stiff arming a bully who is part of a pack of bullies terrorizing shop attendants and customers, [2] Advising Son that if another child the same age continually assaults him, to return the favour, and [3] Whacking the school bully around the head with your globite school case after being assaulted. All cases are detailed in this thread, and all cases involved an eventual good and desired outcome, for both parties. I can only go on personal experience.

The WMAP probe showed that our universe was flat to within small tolerences, [flatness denotes infinite] still we can not be sure such flatness is not just a smaller part of a much larger curvature. What we do know is that the whole universe is much larger then the part we observe. Also should be noted that the whole universe was not concentrated into a point at the BB, but the observable universe was. http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/infpoint.html

The only crazy person in the example I gave was the fool doing 120k/hr in a 60k/hr zone, was stopped and subsequently spken to, acted disgracefully and was arrested appropriatly. I'm not that concerned with her personal problem, the same as I'm not too concerned with the problem of the cop that killed Floyd. Both were wrong, [the woman and the cop] although obviously the cop's crime was far more serious. And no, certainly not the only dysfunction in our community, we also have questionable cops. I believe we are on topic, after all the ambiguous nature of physical torture, has not yet really been established, although I certainly have my thoughts on what is and what isn't physical torture. Does the concept of physical torture get pushed to the back ground, in time of war? Can it be condoned at all in time of war? Are there justifications for physical torture in time of war? Worth thinking about, seriously and deeply. And no, I abhore war, and thankfully have been lucky enough to have just missed out on conscription during the Vietnam war...a war incidently, in which I marched in Moratoriums, claiming it unjustified, and in the ending that war. That did not stop me though from appreciating the actions of the Soldiers, Sailors and Airman that were sent to that war by government decree, and the sacrifices some of them made, along with the sacrifices of the Vietnamese people on both sides also.