Thomas Kelly guessed

doG, For the purpose of showing, I ask is a thing evidence ? And if a thing is evidence then the bible is thing and evidence. I have not asked anyone to prove anything they have not claimed. This was posted earlier. I needed moderator permission to add to the supporting evidence I already posted. I have the choice to do what I think is right, people may disagree and people have not been right in the past, I'm not here to annoy anyone and if anyone becomes annoyed it may be their fault not mine.

doG, You've not posted all the definitions. The documents are interpretations of reality from ancient documents claimed to be from before 1000 A.D. Is a testimony not evidence written, typed or oral ? Is the bible a thing ? Are things evidence from the definitions ?

People, Evidence. If you want to change background to white in webpage look to towards top right hand corner and click on machine part symbol and make choice. Part of Chapter XXIV.—Why God Permits Evil For if, wishing to fill up the number and measure of His creation, He had been afraid of the wickedness of those who were to be, and like one who could find no other way of remedy and cure, except only this, that He should refrain from His purpose of creating, lest the wickedness of those who were to be should be ascribed to Him; what else would this show but unworthy suffering and unseemly feebleness on the part of the Creator, who should so fear the actings of those who as yet were not, that He refrained from His purposed creation? http://www.ccel.org/...ii.vi.xxiv.html ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ People, Evidence. Part of Chapter XXV.—Evil Beings Turned to Good Account. let us consider this earnestly, that God the Creator of the universe, foreseeing the future differences of His creation, foresaw and provided diverse ranks and different offices to each of His creatures, according to the peculiar movements which were produced from freedom of will; so that while all men are of one substance in respect of the method of creation, there should yet be diversity in ranks and offices, according to the peculiar movements of minds, to be produced from liberty of will. Therefore He foresaw that there would be faults in His creatures; and the method of His justice demanded that punishment should follow faults, for the sake of amendment. It behoved, therefore, that there should be ministers of punishment, and yet that freedom of will should draw them into that order. Moreover, those also must have enemies to conquer, who had undertaken the contests for the heavenly rewards. Thus, therefore, neither are those things destitute of utility which are thought to be evil, since the conquered unwillingly acquire eternal rewards for those by whom they are conquered. http://www.ccel.org/...iii.vi.xxv.html ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ People, Evidence. Early Church Father. Part of. "Chap. XIII.—Of the Advantage and Use of the World and of the Seasons. For if only good things are placed in sight, what need is there of reflection, of understanding, of knowledge, of reason? since, wherever he shall extend his hand, that is befitting and adapted to nature; so that if any one should wish to place a most exquisite dinner before infants, who as yet have no taste, it is plain that each will desire that to which either impulse, or hunger, or even accident, shall attract them; and whatever they shall take, it will be useful and salutary to them. What injury will it therefore be for them always to remain as they are, and always to be infants and unacquainted with affairs? But if you add a mixture either of bitter things, or things useless, or even poisonous, they are plainly deceived through their ignorance of good and evil, unless wisdom is added to them, by which they may have the rejection of evil things and the choice of good things. You see, therefore, that we have greater need of wisdom on account of evils; and unless these things had been proposed to us, we should not be a rational animal." From A Treatise on the Anger of God Addressed to Donatus. From http://www.ccel.org/...i.iii.xiii.html In that collection of works you may gain more knowledge of divine providence.

People, Evidence. Obeying Christ,1298 we learn to know what is false from the Scriptures. Moreover, being furnished by our ancestors with the truths of the Scriptures, we know that there is only one who has made the heavens and the earth, the God of the Jews, and of all who choose to worship Him. Our fathers, with pious thought, setting down a fixed belief in Him as the true God, handed down this belief to us, that we may know that if any thing is said against God, it is a falsehood. http://www.ccel.org/...iv.xix.xiv.html _______________________________________________________________________________________________________ People, Evidence from different part. Chapter XLIV.—The Same Continued. "But if He desires the fruitful hill,950 whose then are all things? If He is false, who then is true? If He dwells in a tabernacle, who is without bounds? If He is fond of fat, and sacrifices, and offerings, and drink-offerings, who then is without need, and who is holy, and pure, and perfect? If He is pleased with candles and candlesticks, who then placed the luminaries in heaven? If He dwells in shadow, and darkness, and storm, and smoke, who is the light that lightens the universe? If He comes with trumpets, and shoutings, and darts, and arrows, who is the looked-for tranquillity of all? If He loves war, who then wishes peace? If He makes evil things, who makes good things? If He is without affection, who is a lover of men? If He is not faithful to His promises, who shall be trusted? If He loves the wicked, and adulterers, and murderers, who shall be a just judge? http://www.ccel.org/....iv.v.xliv.html

Phi for All, Thanks, I may post parts of the worded evidence with links so people may examine. __________________________________________________________________________________________ People, Speaking of my questioning of things like post 17, you may need to know that not all questions are of ignorance, some come from knowledge. _______________________________________________________________________________________________________ People, Some evidence of the reasoning. If you use the website you may want to change to the background to white by looking towards the righthand corner of the web page and clicking on the machine part symbol and making your choice. Part of Chapter XLIII.—A Priori Argument on the Divine Attributes. For if He lies, then who speaks truth? Or that He makes experiments as in ignorance; for then who foreknows? And if He deliberates, and changes His purpose, who is perfect in understanding and permanent in design? If He envies, who is above rivalry? If He hardens hearts, who makes wise? If He makes blind and deaf, who has given sight and hearing? If He commits pilfering, who administers justice? If He mocks, who is sincere? If He is weak, who is omnipotent? If He is unjust, who is just? If He makes evil things, who shall make good things? If He does evil, who shall do good? http://www.ccel.org/...iv.v.xliii.html

Moontanman, May be one of the moderators will move part of the top half of this post to the forum People who believe in God are broken. If they choose not to that's alright. What are the signs of a broken person ? Are they all believed to be christians or are other people in more need of things like food and acceptable quality shelter and someone to serve them in taking them away from slavery to pleasure of drugs or alcohol or suffering from excess body weight ? Do you trust anybody ? Is proving that God does not exist not possible ? If you say its possible and it is ever believed by a scientist that they have evidence to prove God does not exist, why may they not want to put it in peer review journal ? If you say it won't ever be possible to prove the existence or non existence of God then a person calling themselves an atheist and scientist is wrong because aren't all things in science claimed to be proven by evidence ? Are not all assertions by definition of certainity if they contain the word not or not ? So if any claim is of certainty why is it claimed some assertions are not acknowledged by parts of the scientific body ? Are assertions like the The White House of Washington which the president of the United States uses is not in Brazil of south America not proven and acknowledged in science, is it doubted by scientists ? So you may be doubtful of God existing because you put "cannot exist as described in the bible" and so you may think you have knowledge of how God exists. May be the test in the bible is if someone knows what is good and what is evil so occurrences of harm or injustice may be true or false and a person may choose. If God cannot exist as described in the bible how may he be both described as just and a injust in the bible ? Is the God of the bible injust and just sometimes ? May be the unjust parts are false. I wasn't surprised to the claim of people being well versed in religious texts, some people may have some knowledge and not have the wisdom. I doubt your claim it made for a very poor argument because you have not used the wording of my evidence to show how its false, I don't know how much you understand of the wording in it. So I doubt you can do that and you won't disprove it. I didn't ask you the question. It was made for someone else to see what they know and prove their words false.

John Cuthber, Why did you put that which I looked at in post 17 ? __________________________________________________________________________________________ doG, I was free enough and I am still. Because of complications, will you seek permission from the moderators of posting evidence of an ancient book from a website ? Or I may direct you to where to read if you want.

doG, Is the bible a thing ? I am here with evidence, part of it is in this forum like I may have posted to you before. Can you show the evidence about the Old Testament being worded to test false like I may have asked you before in a post ? And where's your answer to my question about the comparison of your complaint of the lettering of my posts before to the large lettering in this forum ? __________________________________________________________________________________________ Ophiolite, Do you believe intellect is ever impaired, if so how ?

John Cuthber, Is everyone convinced People who believe in God are broken ? Has anyone proven God does not exist ? Have they put it in a peer-review journal ? Has anyone proven contradictions in the Bible show God does not exist and Christianity is illogical ? Have you looked at the evidence of explanation about contradictions in the bible I posted in this forum, if so can you disprove it ? Like I said to doG in a post in this topic before, look at the larger lettering in the advertisements in the forum and forum headings, do they use them because peoples vision is impaired ?

doG, I showed in my post in this topic there may be evidence to prove that the existence of evil and contradictions in the bible do not show God does not exist, He is evil or that Christianity is illogical. Can you prove that the existence of evil and contradictions in the bible show God does not exist ? If you want me to present my evidence about the contradictions in the bible, I have done it partly in this forum, if you want the rest, ask a moderator to judge if the topic I may start may be believed to be preaching or not how they want the discussion done. If you or I fail to prove things, the existence of God may be in the same doubt. If I prove what may be read above you may doubt whatever you think and people may doubt of the topic claim People who believe in God are broken. Look at the larger lettering in the advertisements in the forum and forum headings, do they use them because peoples vision is impaired ? I'm not convinced people know lettering in the forum may be too small and I'm not convinced you know how to use your eyes and I may explain why sometime.

hypervalent_iodine, I had similar thoughts to that answer. The existence of evil and the contradictions in the bible as John Cuthber spoke of in this topic don't prove God doesn't exist or that he is evil or Christianity is illogical and now there is evidence which may never disprove that.

hypervalent_iodine, Will you give me your opinion about part of post 968 that John Cuthber posted ? You may read it below.

studiot, Thanks, I may only do a limited amount to increase your knowledge of language and the documents posted about.

studiot, After reasoning of the history of the collection of materials for the bible, old and modern word definitions, and how books have chapters, this is difficult to explain. The documents of the early church fathers contains information of different sets of collected documents so may show anyone a history of documents used. Both The Clementine Homilies and The Recognitions of Clement may be called bibles by definition of any standard dictionary. So the use of the word dubbed may be incorrect. My knowledge of these things is incomplete so I can't acknowledge what you say. One example may be the different ages of some persons when they became kings. I'm too tired to confirm this. As you may have some knowledge of, posts are edited and sometimes wording of sentences are not enough to be sure of what was meant and people have not known of errors they have made. So may be not, or may be in my position.

studiot The word bible has more than one definition so I needed more information from you. More added. By one of the definitions of the word bible The Clementine Homilies and The Recognitions of Clement, ANF08, may be thought of in that name.

studiot Use this ANF08 clementine homilly schaff in a search engine. Look for Homily XVIII Chapter heading Chapter XX.—Some Parts of the Old Testament Written to Try Us. about 4th from bottom.

studiot, May be it will after more investigation. Depends what you mean by the bible, look for the Clementine Homilies or The Recognitions of Clement. No it is my first language and I'm not sure you have enough knowledge or wisdom to judge use of language.

asinine cretin Speaking of the Old Testament, the Israelites had it before the gentiles, I don't know how false things got in to it, may be it was to protect the religion from being claimed by outsiders if the books were ever in their hands and if that ever did happen the Israelites were able to prove they are the ones with the right knowledge so they may be trusted. God doesn't need a book to test people, he knows everyones thoughts and his memory is perfect. The system is useful to religious people as I explained earlier, useful to God aswell. You may want to study The Clementine Homilies or The Recognitions of Clement for the debate between St Peter and Simon Magus who spoke this subject and others similar. They are of written works which are ancient. Speaking of the New Testament, it may have been worded skillfully to show heretics wrong if they used it and it may not have had any false things in it. In the present time translations of the New Testament may mislead people, this may be by ignorant error. Look at one of my other posts which may be in the forum to see how. It may appear there is evidence which disproves the bible, the only way to know the truth is by using the advice given, I may need to warn you, if false things are in the bible you may need to reason carefully of what is lawful. I'm restricting my speech because of the warnings in this forum. Its similar to any human job interview or exam, people must show who they are and what they know in some circumstances so a person may be trusted. God wants people to be honest and an ignorant person may be convinced that they are convinced and know and in reality they aren't, it only appears and because the bible contains much skillful use of words it happens and people are misled by others who appear to show knowledge and wisdom that is greater. In order to know the bible as it was desired to be known God doesn't approve of being mastered by vanity or a desire to win a competition. I may be able to answer any other questions. So be it.

You may agree that to learn about Jesus's sayings you need to be taught by an early church father, an example may be John Chrysostom of about 4th century A.D. You may read from a link below an explanation of Sermon on the Mount of Matthew 5. 1,2. until the end of Matthew 7. 28. Part of. Homily XV. Matt. V. 1, 2. “And Jesus seeing the multitudes went up into the mountain, and when He was set, His disciples came unto Him. And He opened His mouth, and taught them saying, Blessed,” etc. See how unambitious He was, and void of boasting: in that He did not lead people about with Him, but whereas, when healing was required, He had Himself gone about everywhere, visiting both towns and country places; now when the multitude is become very great, He sits in one spot: and that not in the midst of any city or forum, but on a mountain and in a wilderness; instructing us to do nothing for display, and to separate ourselves from the tumults of ordinary life,581and this most especially, when we are to study wisdom, and to discourse of things needful to be done. Source (link removed by moderator, please see SFN forum rule 2.7 to see why).

True or false ? Chapter LIII.—Everything Has Its Corresponding Contrary. “Therefore this division holds in all the things of the world; and as there are pious men, so there are also impious; as there are prophets, so also there are false prophets; and amongst the Gentiles there are philosophers and false philosophers. Also the Arabian nations, and many others, have imitated the circumcision of the Jews for the service of their impiety. So also the worship of demons is contrary to the divine worship, baptism to baptism, laws to the law, false apostles to apostles, and false teachers to teachers. And hence it is that among the philosophers some assert providence, others deny it; some maintain that there is one God, others that there are more than one" Source (link removed by moderator, please see SFN forum rule 2.7 to see why).

Moontanman, Look at this mystery from link below. Link removed.

True or false maybe ? "Chapter XX.—Some Parts of the Old Testament Written to Try Us Wherefore every man who wishes to be saved must become, as the Teacher said, a judge of the books written to try us. For thus He spake: 'Become experienced bankers.' Now the need of bankers arises from the circumstance that the spurious is mixed up with the genuine." Source (link removed by moderator, please see SFN forum rule 2.7 to see why)

A story you may want to read. Part of it below. 'The king said to him, ‘Do you not think that Bel is a living god? Do you not see how much he eats and drinks every day?’ And Daniel laughed, and said, ‘Do not be deceived, O king, for this thing is only clay inside and bronze outside, and it never ate or drank anything.’ To look at complete story go to oremus Bible Browser, look for the box near top of web page and under "Enter a bible reference" put "bel and the dragon" then press Enter key. Part of story quoted from The New Revised Standard Version (Anglicized Edition).

You may look at two translations of a part of a bible. A translation by me and one from The Darby Translation. Before you compare you may need me to tell you that benefitting people sometimes is not the same as doing like they want you to and being silent may be beneficial as speaking a word to someone. Sometimes doing what a person doesn't want you to do is beneficial for everyone including yourself and serving. A time to be silent is if you guess by someones words or actions they don't want to help you and no-one else mostly benefits by you speaking. To help be silent you may need to keep your top lip and bottom lip touching and try not to screw your lips up. My translation next. You heard it said serve your neighbour and neglect your enemy. Different to it I say to you serve your enemies, benefit those who curse you, work for those who neglect you, and pray for those who resent you and persecute you so you may be the sons of your Father who is in the heavens, because he makes his sun rise on harmful and righteous and sends rain on just and unjust. Darby Translation next. Ye have heard that it has been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour and hate thine enemy. But *I* say unto you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who insult you and persecute you, that ye may be the sons of your Father who is in the heavens; for he makes his sun rise on evil and good, and sends rain on just and unjust. Matthew 5: 43, 44, and 45.